Cayman S - Pirelli vs Michelin vs Goodyear
Discussion
Schmed said:
Instrumented tests, magazine articles, paid for reviews, there’s a billion of them out there being continually updated, and the landscape keeps changing. You won’t find a review saying p-zeroes are better than Michelins in the UHP tests because they’re not. At least as far as 2020, and from there we can only hope.
I personally haven't seen a proper PZ4 vs PS4S test. And,odd as it may seem, no Michelin supporters have referred to one. So it may be that the PS4S is suprierior to the PZ4. Without the evidence no-one actually knows.My problem is that it seems that (apart from me!) everyone dismisses independent instrumented test when they differ from their own experience/prejudice. Of course feel is important and subjective - but outright grip can be objectively measured and the figures do not lie.
bcr5784 said:
I personally haven't seen a proper PZ4 vs PS4S test. And,odd as it may seem, no Michelin supporters have referred to one. So it may be that the PS4S is suprierior to the PZ4. Without the evidence no-one actually knows.
My problem is that it seems that (apart from me!) everyone dismisses independent instrumented test when they differ from their own experience/prejudice. Of course feel is important and subjective - but outright grip can be objectively measured and the figures do not lie.
Find a copy of EVO and look at that test. Consider where it was, when it was and the tyres tested. If after looking at all of that you think that was a scientific and unbiased test then you and I have very different ideas of scientific. My problem is that it seems that (apart from me!) everyone dismisses independent instrumented test when they differ from their own experience/prejudice. Of course feel is important and subjective - but outright grip can be objectively measured and the figures do not lie.
Tyre tests (when they are done in a scientific and unbiased manner) are useful. When they are done on asphalt that isn't what we use in the UK, in weather we don't get in the UK, using only new tyres that have no wear (and aren't run long enough to have much) and with obvious tyres omitted, those tests aren't helpful.
I have driven a 911 on brand new P Zero N1s from new to 4mm and then the same car on PS4S from new to 3mm. I have driven the car in everything from glorious sunny days to winter days with sub zero temps and monsoon like autumn days. The difference between the two tyres in the real world is extremely stark when it comes to wet, cold or damp conditions. The 911 in question replaced another 911 which had had PS2s on it. The new car was bought in March. The day before the swap I took the old PS2 shod 911 for one last blast. It was p*ssing wet and cold. There was no drama. New car came and for the first few days it was dry but at the weekend it was wet. I headed onto the same road as I'd driven in the old car on conscious that it was a new car and it would be prudent to take my time to learn the differences. Leaving the town and heading onto the NSL road I gave it the beans and the traction control flickered. The old car didn't do this but I figured it might be that this was a little more powerful. Slowly I upped the cornering speed (still well below what I'd have done in the old car) and the result was massive understeer which would transition to oversteer with a throttle lift. I actually thought there was something wrong with the car. OPC confirmed the geo was fine and no issues. I wanted to change the tyres immediately but my OH whose car it was didn't want the expense. When they tyres had worn to 4mm they changed their tune branding the car "undrivable". PS4S went on. It was like a new car! Suddenly you could actually use it in the wet without constant fear of what would happen. So you can defend the P Zero all you like but I've real world UK experience of them on the same car from new to worn and I know what the difference is and it's massive.
One poster on another forum nailed the response to being asked "what would be better than P zeros". They responded "bare rims".
Digressing slightly anyone gone from PS2 to PS4 (non S) or PSS on the same car?
Had PZeros on our XF a decade ago. Woeful. Had an unexplained blowout of a rear tyre (only one I’ve ever had). Front tyres were cracking when car was less than 12 months old. If the car went 24hrs without being driven it felt like driving with 50p shaped wheels until youd driven many miles. Grip in the wet was pretty rubbish - worse than the Dunlops and Falkens we also put on the car during the time we had it.
I have seen some decent reviews for PZeros over the years - problem is there are such a bewildering number of different versions. For me they’re a brand to avoid however.
Had PZeros on our XF a decade ago. Woeful. Had an unexplained blowout of a rear tyre (only one I’ve ever had). Front tyres were cracking when car was less than 12 months old. If the car went 24hrs without being driven it felt like driving with 50p shaped wheels until youd driven many miles. Grip in the wet was pretty rubbish - worse than the Dunlops and Falkens we also put on the car during the time we had it.
I have seen some decent reviews for PZeros over the years - problem is there are such a bewildering number of different versions. For me they’re a brand to avoid however.
cslwannabe said:
Digressing slightly anyone gone from PS2 to PS4 (non S) or PSS on the same car?
PS2 to PSS on my Cayman R. The N rated PS2 was better in the wet, the PSS better everywhere else. The PSS isn't great in the wet but is fantastic in the dry and gives nice steering feel. I'd have got PS4S at the time of the swap but Michelin had none of the size the rear of the car needed in the whole of Europe at the time and so I ended up just taking the SS. Next time I'll go 4S or maybe Cup 2 as I love how the car is on them and it's pretty much a dry use car only these days.bcr5784 said:
I personally haven't seen a proper PZ4 vs PS4S test. And,odd as it may seem, no Michelin supporters have referred to one. So it may be that the PS4S is suprierior to the PZ4. Without the evidence no-one actually knows.
My problem is that it seems that (apart from me!) everyone dismisses independent instrumented test when they differ from their own experience/prejudice. Of course feel is important and subjective - but outright grip can be objectively measured and the figures do not lie.
the PS4S is a UHP tyre for the 12th time so the Pzero wont be in the same tests.My problem is that it seems that (apart from me!) everyone dismisses independent instrumented test when they differ from their own experience/prejudice. Of course feel is important and subjective - but outright grip can be objectively measured and the figures do not lie.
but every PS4S is : "Ultimate sportiness on dry roads, amazing safety in the wet." its win win tyre for a UHP summer tyre as it works in the rain !
even beats most winter tyres at normal temps in winter.
the evo test says "sponsered" in the top right corner, Conti do a lot of these in mags also then again win !!!
the PZ4 is NOT a N0 pezro, now I have run 2 sets of N1 but not sure if they are Pz4 the newer tyre, if some one can post up if a PZ4 mark is on a N1 that would be some thing.
the Ps4s up's it's game over the PS4 it has hard sholders and better dry braking, but the PS4 still kills the pzero and was 1st in the dry by a big margin, the PS4S will only better that even !
AS I said if it fair better in the dry, as they heat up in seconds but on track melt in 1/2 a lap so you cannot even try your car on track if you drive fast.
cslwannabe said:
Digressing slightly anyone gone from PS2 to PS4 (non S) or PSS on the same car?
Had PZeros on our XF a decade ago. Woeful. Had an unexplained blowout of a rear tyre (only one I’ve ever had). Front tyres were cracking when car was less than 12 months old. If the car went 24hrs without being driven it felt like driving with 50p shaped wheels until youd driven many miles. Grip in the wet was pretty rubbish - worse than the Dunlops and Falkens we also put on the car during the time we had it.
I have seen some decent reviews for PZeros over the years - problem is there are such a bewildering number of different versions. For me they’re a brand to avoid however.
no one would really go from a PS2 to PS4 PS2 went to Pilot super sports in the line up.Had PZeros on our XF a decade ago. Woeful. Had an unexplained blowout of a rear tyre (only one I’ve ever had). Front tyres were cracking when car was less than 12 months old. If the car went 24hrs without being driven it felt like driving with 50p shaped wheels until youd driven many miles. Grip in the wet was pretty rubbish - worse than the Dunlops and Falkens we also put on the car during the time we had it.
I have seen some decent reviews for PZeros over the years - problem is there are such a bewildering number of different versions. For me they’re a brand to avoid however.
I have ran 20+ sets PS2 and then 10 sets of Super sports the super sports a great tyre just not got the PS4S wet performance.
PS4 is a rung down the ladder but seems to be the winner there also on the next price bracket down and of course in smaller 17 and 18 sizes.
great for your Min or Fiesta, I think the Performace ed Fiesta still came on Super Sports on release. But the Super sport is dead now really.
cslwannabe said:
But as I’ve said previously for a 987 on 18s you can’t get SS front and rear. You can now get PS4 (non S) front and rear (only relatively recently) or PS4S front & SS rear. If I could get PS4S all round I would.
that's fustrating.my issue is we are all f***** as cars weigh more the loads on tyres we want are getting higher for our lower weight cars.
lucky PS4S work very well running 2 to 3psi down and still last 40k miles, but at oem pressures they are starting to feel too firm on a 1250 kg car :-(
On my Cayman R I ran 2/3 psi down other wise it was a bit firm, on my Golf CS I run 4 psi down over oem ! but lucky they work and don;t seem to effect it or loose mpg, just a nicer ride.
put a goodyear old F1 on a Cayman it feels so soft and nice :-) with lower load ratings on the side walls.
cslwannabe said:
But as I’ve said previously for a 987 on 18s you can’t get SS front and rear. You can now get PS4 (non S) front and rear (only relatively recently) or PS4S front & SS rear. If I could get PS4S all round I would.
If you need N rated for warranty then just get PS2s all round. They aren't as good for grip as the new stuff but they aren't at all bad either. Alternatively, do what I did and pickup some Porsche wheels and N rated tyres from ebay, stick what you like on the "proper" rims and if you need to go for warranty work you can swap wheels. Plus you have a spare set of rims. I got a set of Porsche winter wheels and N rated winter tyres for £600. I don't use the car in winter but did take it out in the snow for fun a couple of times and I have to admit I was astonished just how fast you can go in a Cayman on compacted snow 
PaulD86 said:
cslwannabe said:
But as I’ve said previously for a 987 on 18s you can’t get SS front and rear. You can now get PS4 (non S) front and rear (only relatively recently) or PS4S front & SS rear. If I could get PS4S all round I would.
If you need N rated for warranty then just get PS2s all round. They aren't as good for grip as the new stuff but they aren't at all bad either. Alternatively, do what I did and pickup some Porsche wheels and N rated tyres from ebay, stick what you like on the "proper" rims and if you need to go for warranty work you can swap wheels. Plus you have a spare set of rims. I got a set of Porsche winter wheels and N rated winter tyres for £600. I don't use the car in winter but did take it out in the snow for fun a couple of times and I have to admit I was astonished just how fast you can go in a Cayman on compacted snow shocked you can even order a PS2.
What tyres do you have on your Golf David, Cups?
I’ve done a few miles with PS4 on my Golf Rs and have no complaints really. Mind you they drove ok on the OEM Brdigestones when they were new at least, which perform terribly in most tyre tests.
No warranty so no need for N rating.
The only F1 I can get are 2s - almost as ancient as the PS2!
PS4 £163, SS £205, PS2 £208 so quite a difference in price too!
I’ve done a few miles with PS4 on my Golf Rs and have no complaints really. Mind you they drove ok on the OEM Brdigestones when they were new at least, which perform terribly in most tyre tests.
No warranty so no need for N rating.
The only F1 I can get are 2s - almost as ancient as the PS2!
PS4 £163, SS £205, PS2 £208 so quite a difference in price too!
cslwannabe said:
What tyres do you have on your Golf David, Cups?
I’ve done a few miles with PS4 on my Golf Rs and have no complaints really. Mind you they drove ok on the OEM Brdigestones when they were new at least, which perform terribly in most tyre tests.
No warranty so no need for N rating.
The only F1 I can get are 2s - almost as ancient as the PS2!
PS4 £163, SS £205, PS2 £208 so quite a difference in price too!
PS4S now, a nice new set for winter. All my cars use Cup2 or PS4S's I’ve done a few miles with PS4 on my Golf Rs and have no complaints really. Mind you they drove ok on the OEM Brdigestones when they were new at least, which perform terribly in most tyre tests.
No warranty so no need for N rating.
The only F1 I can get are 2s - almost as ancient as the PS2!
PS4 £163, SS £205, PS2 £208 so quite a difference in price too!
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