981 CGTS vs 718 CGTS 4.0 steering

[Twinfan]

I think a lot depends on you as a person. To compare two famous motorcycle racers on Ducatis:

Steve Hislop: super fast, faster on a BSB Superbike around Donington than any of the MotoGP racers in 2002. Note: Needed a perfect bike or struggled.

Carl Fogarty: again super fast, multiple world titles. Note: Rode around any issues and got the best result the bike could get.

Two different approaches to motorcycle riding, both with their own merits/pros and cons. Neither is right or wrong, much like this steering comparison and discussion. If you're Hizzy, you'd probably not be happy in a 981 GTS. If you're Foggy, you'd just drive the wheels off it

[Porsche911R]

Twinfan said:

I think a lot depends on you as a person. To compare two famous motorcycle racers on Ducatis:

Steve Hislop: super fast, faster on a BSB Superbike around Donington than any of the MotoGP racers in 2002. Note: Needed a perfect bike or struggled.

Carl Fogarty: again super fast, multiple world titles. Note: Rode around any issues and got the best result the bike could get.

Two different approaches to motorcycle riding, both with their own merits/pros and cons. Neither is right or wrong, much like this steering comparison and discussion. If you're Hizzy, you'd probably not be happy in a 981 GTS. If you're Foggy, you'd just drive the wheels off it

Then crash, bit like Burns vs McRae.
Lauda vs Hunt etc etc.

When he went to Honda he did not do so well did he ?
He got on well with Ducati and prob trusted it limits to ride the snot off it.

The best drivers always know the setups and can make the car better to drive. Sets the top people apart.
Drivers like Hamilton and Michael Schumacher' prove this ,to be a long lasting great you need a bit more than raw talent to break records.
A lot of top riders and drivers moan about the cars/bikes but don’t know how to improve on it and moaners.
You can always drive round issues but it leads to loosing or crashing in the end.
Back to rally:
“Loeb has a mind-blowing 917 WRC stage wins and 9 WRC titles.:

As for us driving for fun, I like to interact with my car as much as possible, it just makes driving fun over frustrating.

Pro's get paid to race and thus have to perform, it so far apart from owning a fun car you want to drive on a Sunday morning. Plus I don’t want to crash.

[Slippydiff]

Twinfan said:

I think a lot depends on you as a person. To compare two famous motorcycle racers on Ducatis:

Steve Hislop: super fast, faster on a BSB Superbike around Donington than any of the MotoGP racers in 2002. Note: Needed a perfect bike or struggled.

Carl Fogarty: again super fast, multiple world titles. Note: Rode around any issues and got the best result the bike could get.

Two different approaches to motorcycle riding, both with their own merits/pros and cons. Neither is right or wrong, much like this steering comparison and discussion. If you're Hizzy, you'd probably not be happy in a 981 GTS. If you're Foggy, you'd just drive the wheels off it

Lorenzo and Marquez springs to mind ...

Butter .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7CidQywKMo

Just sublime, and much missed (at Ducati)

[IMI A]

Porsche911R said:

braddo said:

It's not about precision - I don't think anyone is claiming EPAS Porsches have unprecise steering. It's about feel. That is, getting some indication through your hands of when front tyres are struggling for grip.

Obviously on dry roads this issue is not going to crop up often. But it really can make a difference either on track (especially if not dry), or on the road when there is less grip, e.g. dusty/dirty roads, wet roads, snow/ice on roads.

As other have said, in normal dry conditions people learn to trust that sufficient grip is available. So whilst that means you can hoon around and enjoy yourself, you don't actually know how far away from grip limits you are.

It’s seems on this thread knowing what the car is doing is not high up on the list of importance to a big % of owners.
So it will be the forever debate like the manual VS PDK debates which go round in circles, and now the much long gearing which again spits opinion for the last 20 years , Now only just become an issue !!! As it a sheep fashion to point it out these days.
You either turn a blind eye on all these issues or not I guess.

R you drive a Golf and GT3. They have EPAS. Are you saying electric steering is fine 99.9% your buying certainly says so?

[Twinfan]

Slippydiff said:

Lorenzo and Marquez springs to mind ...

Butter .... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7CidQywKMo

Just sublime, and much missed (at Ducati)

Yep, another good comparison. I watched them both climb the ranks over the years and they're certainly chalk and cheese in MotoGP terms. Jorge was awesome on an Aprilia though, he proper ragged them!

[Slippydiff]

Twinfan said:

Yep, another good comparison. I watched them both climb the ranks over the years and they're certainly chalk and cheese in MotoGP terms. Jorge was awesome on an Aprilia though, he proper ragged them!

The commentators bang on about MM's crashes (and his saves) but Lorenzo had some huuuuge shunts throughout his career in all the classes.

Was a Marquez fan, not so much these days ...
If Aprilia can get Lorenzo back onto a Moto GP bike testing for them (not only would it be a nice bit of symmetry in his career) they'll reap the benefits, a bit like a certain Mr Pedrosa has done for KTM ...

[Porsche911R]

IMI A said:

R you drive a Golf and GT3. They have EPAS. Are you saying electric steering is fine 99.9% your buying certainly says so?

No I bought a 991.1 GTS and hated it so sold it, I can also not own a 981.

The golf CS has no dead spot and give you full confidence in the front of the car.

My GT3 is the best eps yet, but I still monoballed the front end and now the feedback has increased 10fold.

But you hop back in a Cayman R and Spyder and the cars are more alive so more fun, I have no issue with the GT3 or Golf system though, nothing is lacking to slow you down, just different.

The 991.1 and 981 cars were not good enough for me on a personal level to enjoy or push especially when it was wet.

Eps is said to be a better system if done right.
But Porsche only keep their better software for GT models and they keep improving it all the time.

[James McScotty]

Porsche911R said:

The 991.1 and 981 cars were not good enough for me on a personal level to enjoy or push especially when it was wet.

It's never a good idea to "push" in a mid-engine Porsche on public roads in the wet.

Mid-engine cars have a tendency to snap oversteer, which is difficult to control or catch.

[DJMC]

Porsche911R said:

No I bought a 991.1 GTS and hated it so sold it, I can also not own a 981.

The golf CS has no dead spot and give you full confidence in the front of the car.

My GT3 is the best eps yet, but I still monoballed the front end and now the feedback has increased 10fold.

But you hop back in a Cayman R and Spyder and the cars are more alive so more fun, I have no issue with the GT3 or Golf system though, nothing is lacking to slow you down, just different.

The 991.1 and 981 cars were not good enough for me on a personal level to enjoy or push especially when it was wet.

Eps is said to be a better system if done right.
But Porsche only keep their better software for GT models and they keep improving it all the time.

Not that I need or want it, but is there any improvement available for 981 owners "pushing on" either via software or mechanical tweaks? Perhaps in the same way you'd tune an engine i.e. stage 1, stage 2, etc.

[dunc_sx]

James McScotty said:

It's never a good idea to "push" in a mid-engine Porsche on public roads in the wet.

Mid-engine cars have a tendency to snap oversteer, which is difficult to control or catch.

Depends which ones, Cayman's are easy going in terms of manners in any conditions.

In fact any mid engine I've owned has been easily controlled imo

Dunc.

[James McScotty]

dunc_sx said:

Depends which ones, Cayman's are easy going in terms of manners in any conditions.

In fact any mid engine I've owned has been easily controlled imo

Dunc.

Snap oversteer is a handling characteristic of all mid engine cars. It's due to the low moment of inertia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#Dr...

[IMI A]

Porsche911R said:

IMI A said:

R you drive a Golf and GT3. They have EPAS. Are you saying electric steering is fine 99.9% your buying certainly says so?

No I bought a 991.1 GTS and hated it so sold it, I can also not own a 981.

The golf CS has no dead spot and give you full confidence in the front of the car.

My GT3 is the best eps yet, but I still monoballed the front end and now the feedback has increased 10fold.

But you hop back in a Cayman R and Spyder and the cars are more alive so more fun, I have no issue with the GT3 or Golf system though, nothing is lacking to slow you down, just different.

The 991.1 and 981 cars were not good enough for me on a personal level to enjoy or push especially when it was wet.

Eps is said to be a better system if done right.
But Porsche only keep their better software for GT models and they keep improving it all the time.

Its just an algorithm. There is no connection between tyre and steering like on a h system. If Cayman R is anything like the vario rack in 997 turbo it is not maybe accurate either side of 12 o clock for first 15 degrees left to right hence me saying far easier for me to place a 991/Golf on tarmac than it is 997 accurately. Feel is nice but on road I can think of only once in 14 years where I've lost traction at the front in a meaningful way and I was asking too much of the car. I do lust after an R. Very few cars I'd like but that is one of them in peridot with PCCB pls.

[bcr5784]

James McScotty said:

Snap oversteer is a handling characteristic of all mid engine cars. It's due to the low moment of inertia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#Dr...

That's definitely an oversimplication. Yes the lower moment of inertia makes it more difficult to make them benign - but modern stability controls outweigh that. Hot hatches of the past such as the first GTI Golfs or Peugeot 205s are FAR more likely to swap ends than the best modern mid engined cars (ask me how I know!) Even with everything switched off my A110 is more benign than those early hatches. Engineering development (as the 911 shows!) can outweigh basic weigh distribution issues.

[IMI A]

bcr5784 said:

James McScotty said:

Snap oversteer is a handling characteristic of all mid engine cars. It's due to the low moment of inertia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#Dr...

That's definitely an oversimplication. Yes the lower moment of inertia makes it more difficult to make them benign - but modern stability controls outweigh that. Hot hatches of the past such as the first GTI Golfs or Peugeot 205s are FAR more likely to swap ends than the best modern mid engined cars (ask me how I know!) Even with everything switched off my A110 is more benign than those early hatches. Engineering development (as the 911 shows!) can outweigh basic weigh distribution issues.

Drive any 986 over the limit you'll find it difficult to hold in wet when it lets go if its one without PSM. More difficult than any 911 in my experience.

[bcr5784]

IMI A said:

Drive any 986 over the limit you'll find it difficult to hold in wet when it lets go if its one without PSM. More difficult than any 911 in my experience.

Can't speak for 986 - but with PSM on you can do quite outrageous things with the 981. At the PEC I was told by the instructor at 80-90 mph to do an emergency stop and swerve violently left and right. Totally went against my instincts - but absolutely no instability whatsoever. Have done something similar since in other cars - no issue. Take everything off and the 981 is much more difficult to handle - far less benign than the A110 without any granny aids.

Edited by bcr5784 on Tuesday 10th November 20:03

[Steve Rance]

Generally speaking a reasonably well balanced mid engined car is easy to drive once youve got it turned in and settled. Most problems occur when you carry too much speed before turn in or are clumbsy on the throttle on exit. from turn in to apex, the engine layout will help you unless you do something stupid. This is - of course - based on the assumption that the car takes any notice of your inputs and doesnt over ride them because it thinks that you cant be trusted. In which case it will be even easier to drive. Except you arn't really doing the driving.

Things get a little more difficult when the weight starts to increase but again, if the chassis has a balance, it wont be that difficult, it just takes a little more 'catching' if you get it wrong.

With reference to comments about the EPS. Yes, of couse a good driver will drive around it to extract performance. My point is that - in a road car presumably designed for driving enjoyment why should it be neccessary?

[Porsche911R]

https://youtu.be/yvBYpu7zhk8

718 driven by a pro.

[dunc_sx]

James McScotty said:

dunc_sx said:

Depends which ones, Cayman's are easy going in terms of manners in any conditions.

In fact any mid engine I've owned has been easily controlled imo

Dunc.

Snap oversteer is a handling characteristic of all mid engine cars. It's due to the low moment of inertia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mid-engine_design#Dr...

Sorry James but all the mid engined cars I've owned have glided smoothly into oversteer with all the aids off, wet or dry. Zero snap about it.

I could probably find a video or two demonstrating it but to be honest it wouldn't be any different from any video you'd find on you tube by typing "Cayman oversteer" or similar.

Dunc.

[Porsche911R]

dunc_sx said:

Sorry James but all the mid engined cars I've owned have glided smoothly into oversteer with all the aids off, wet or dry. Zero snap about it.

I could probably find a video or two demonstrating it but to be honest it wouldn't be any different from any video you'd find on you tube by typing "Cayman oversteer" or similar.

Dunc.

You have not owned a Elise or Exige then.

[bcr5784]

Porsche911R said:

You have not owned a Elise or Exige then.

I have - and not in the same league as some cars in the past (or indeed any cars on the original Michelin X tyres in the wet). Never lost an Elise on road or track - but I can't say the same for all cars.