981 CGTS vs 718 CGTS 4.0 steering

[Porsche911R]

Schmed said:

Having owned both cars I would also agree with many posters on here and say the 718 steering is vastly better for EPAS.

Of course if you’re only an average driver you might not notice the difference or value it.

This 95% drivers don’t care as they potter about in their life style cars.

[Porsche911R]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

but that is a fully stripped out track car prop also fully monoballed and I bet on Cups a a set of 3 way shocks
I can drive any car fast ish, is a 7.41 a fast lap in a stripped out 981 S, not really it's 20 odd seconds off a oem's car lap time !

I am not the one saying a 981 turns in like a bus, nothing wrong with 981 turn in, it's better than 987 turn in oem for oem it has abetter chassis and wider front track..

what you need to get a qually lap is Confidence in the car you drive that's its (if you can drive in the 1st place)

a 981 with gen 1 EPS does not give me the Confidence in the car to drive it up and over the limit esp the brakes also, threashold braking has a lot to do with steering feel and trying to not let ABS cut in, you also feel that though the steering in a staight line, an area with EPS which has zero feel.
what that guy has done is built a car he personally has Confidence in to drive fast nothing more but is still 1/2 a minute off a stock car on road tyres so not very impressive imo. now if it were a 7.20 BGT than I might take a bit more notice (and that would be still slow for that spec car) but would be at lean OEM lap time on road tyres lol

there were no corrections no heroics etc etc, it's just a ok ish lap at 85% of what that car could really do !driven well within the window of the car now that might seem fast to some I guess.

look no right and wrong here, if people like the gen 1 EPS systems that great, I hate it as I feel I cannot drive them at 100% or over 100%

Edited by Porsche911R on Sunday 1st November 10:19

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

but that is a fully stripped out track car prop also fully monoballed and I bet on Cups a a set of 3 way shocks
I can drive any car fast ish, is a 7.41 a fast lap in a stripped out 981 S, not really it's 20 odd seconds off a oem's car lap time !

I am not the one saying a 981 turns in like a bus, nothing wrong with 981 turn in, it's better than 987 turn in oem for oem it has abetter chassis and wider front track..

what you need to get a qually lap is Confidence in the car you drive that's its (if you can drive in the 1st place)

a 981 with gen 1 EPS does not give me the Confidence in the car to drive it up and over the limit esp the brakes also, threashold braking has a lot to do with steering feel and trying to not let ABS cut in, you also feel that though the steering in a staight line, an area with EPS which has zero feel.
what that guy has done is built a car he personally has Confidence in to drive fast nothing more but is still 1/2 a minute off a stock car on road tyres so not very impressive imo. now if it were a 7.20 BGT than I might take a bit more notice (and that would be still slow for that spec car) but would be at lean OEM lap time on road tyres lol

there were no corrections no heroics etc etc, it's just a ok ish lap at 85% of what that car could really do !driven well within the window of the car now that might seem fast to some I guess.

look no right and wrong here, if people like the gen 1 EPS systems that great, I hate it as I feel I cannot drive them at 100% or over 100%

The car's spec is in the description beneath the video, it's on KW 3 ways and Trofeo R's. No mention of any monoballs/any other suspension mods.

As has been said before, the time is immaterial, it's the fact the car can be driven in the manner required. If it had the steering of Trabant, the driver wouldn't be attempting the feat.

As we've all come to see on this forum, your binary thought processes frequently don't make for particularly balanced or useful reviews David.

What's been interesting is reading your frequent comments on the 981 steering and you describing it as being "st", when the reality of the situation is, it's actually more a case of YOU personally not having the confidence to push the car to its limits. Which is a very different matter altogether to the steering being "st".

Unfortunately your modus operandi and reputation proceed you in these matters. You spent years on here slating the 996 GT3 in all it's iterations, and you did so purely because YOU didn't enjoy driving/get on with the car YOU personally owned. That doesn't make the 996 GT3, "st".

You were, by and large, the sole dissenting voice in this matter.
A quick look on Rennlist and on PH, showed that hordes of 996 GT3 owners really enjoy/enjoyed driving their cars both on road and track, and it taught them a huge amount about 911 driving dynamics in the process. Despite this, you continued to swim against the tide, all too often posting rants full of vitriolic spew, whilst pouring scorn on both the cars and their owners.

As ever your "opinions" have been presented rammed down our throats, as fact : "996 GT3 gear ratios unsuitable for road use". Incorrect, they proved unsuitable for YOUR personal use on the road.

"All 996/997 GT3's have had numerous owners, ergo they must be crap". By default that must make the 981 GT4 crap too ?

"Any Porsche that's not mid-engined is a useless, understeery POS. Why even Porsche's racecars are now effectively mid engined".
So what do you do ? You go out and buy a 991 GT3, and having done so, proclaim it the best/quickest drivers car/Porsche you've owned...

PDK transmission : Allegedly "only owned by poseurs/non-enthusiasts" and "not real drivers". That's a lot of Gen 1 991 GT3/RS owners you're discredited in one fell swoop, not to mention every 458 Italia and Speciale owner too. 993 RSR and Yellow 491, both owned, and I suspect tracked their 991.1 GT3 RS's, are you suggesting either or both of them are lesser drivers/enthusiasts than you ?

"The majority of Porsches are now owned as a lifestyle accoutrement". Maybe well be the case, but so what ? The same can be said of every Ferrari, McLaren, Lamborghini, Pagani etc ever bought.

Can you see a pattern emerging with your opinions here ? 'Rest assured, everyone else has/does.

But I digress ... so back on topic. With 20" wheels (and Pirellis) on stock suspension components and stock geo settings, the 981 steering feel is for some I suspect, sub-optimal.

Quite why a 981 needs 20" diameter wheels is beyond me, I've no doubt they were foisted on the car by the marketing department and someone/a department more concerned with form over function. That the GT4 Clubsport came on 18" wheels tells you all you need to know about the car's chassis from an outright performance perspective ...

I'm guessing the sweetspot for performance AND looks on the road on a 981 is a 19" set up, and my experience with RPMT's CLR 981 bore that out. I note that BGB seem happy to utilise 19" wheels on their 3.8 X51 engined track cars too.

But let's see what some might say is the UK's most knowledgeable and capable journalist has to say o the subject ... :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wT2wkhg6LTQ&t=...

Those that have been on this forum for some years now, know I've never shied away from saying I'm not a big fan of Harris, put bluntly, I don't like the showboating stuff he produces, nor his journalistic style.
But credit where credit is due, the bloke can drive, and his ability to assimilate the subtle nuances of pretty much any car he drives, new or old, and transfer them into words/speech, is hugely impressive.

His comments on the then new EPAS steering on the 981 Cayman are illuminating.
He admits there's a lack of feel compared with the 987 and categorically states "that's not a good thing", yet then goes on to say and show, that this reduction in feel needn't (and doesn't) spoil his enjoyment of the car in any way shape or form, on the contrary, the turn in and chassis balance is so good, the reduced steering feel isn't the be all and end all, deal breaker you've persistently claimed it to be.

From my experiences, I'd liken it as going from a 996 GT3 to the E46 M3 CSL. Plenty roundly criticised the CSL's steering for the lack of weight, feel/ "noise" and feedback initially, but once you'd acclimatised to it, it was clear it was one of the best steering cars the M division had ever produced.

And if you think the 981 EPAS feel is bad, try an E63 V10 M6, initially it felt absolutely dire, yet the reality was, on a wet road and with over 500hp at your disposal in a car weighing 1700kgs, it was one of the most confidence inspiring, quick cars I've driven to date. Not only could it be placed with precision, but it could be driven sideways in complete safety and with complete confidence, if and when the mood took you.

Here are two "non-enthusiasts" (we know this must be true, as they're driving PDK equipped cars ...) struggling gamely with their 981's "st" EPAS :

https://youtu.be/CHHDXSjRr7A

https://youtu.be/Be2zDTxhNbI

Of course, both cars have been modified and use uprated springs, dampers, suspension bushings/monoballs and linkages, but I think it fair to assume they've retained the standard 981 S/GTS EPAS racks.

It's noteworthy that neither driver seems to be struggling with the "st" EPAS, and I'm not aware that BGB (nor indeed any other company earning their bread and butter from modifying/upgrading the 981 platform) have offered any kind of 981 steering rack conversions/upgrades to date.

Here endeth the case for the defence ...

[Porsche911R]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

has nothing to do with how fast my lap would be we are not talking about a lap I am doing, this guys not driving his car to 100% of what it can do.

It's a safe lap driven within about 92% of what the car can do.
The question YOU have to ask is why is this guy only at 92% of what the cars capable of. Not how fast I am.

Is that lap
A: lack of skills
or
B: lack of confidence in the car to push over 92%

or a bit of Both.

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

Here endeth the case for the defence ...

If you like 981's buy one, no ones stopping you ;-)

I go against the grain on here for good reason, does not make we wrong because a bigger % disagree with what I say.

Most of the Posts I post which get neg feedback on here are then backed up by the likes of Steve Rance who tends to agree what I have posted in the main. so 99 people saying no and 1 saying yes, I'll take the One if it's Steve.

So having 90% people saying I am wrong who don't have a clue is meaning less :-) and it's always a fight to push my opinons over the the clueless who only want to own a "lifestye " product and are happy at swapping cogs at 5k revs.

Long gearing, EPS, no brake feel is stuff I hate, and I stand by every thing I post and the reason why things things stand in the way of getting the best from a car I back up EVERY time.

posting vids of people driving cars at 85% of the cars windows is pointless as is talking about drifting BMW's which any tw4t can do, very easy cars to get the back out in a control mannor, again having owned both the 996 GT3 and the BMW CSL you talk about I think back to back in fact, although my next M3 the E92 v8 was even easier. I have never been able to drift any of my porkers in a way I am happy to piss about on the road doing so, and it's not my driving style, I am more pin point coming from Lotus, but a BMW you just drive like that, it's default.

[Porsche911R]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

an est lap I think that car can do BTG and how easy he is driving it as is.

So with a bit of basic maths, a known oem 981 S full lap time and known BGT vs full time time differences plus est time for R spec tyres less weight and 3 ways KW's
I came up with 92% :-)
I don't think people realise just how hard it is to match or get close to pro drivers times.

[James McScotty]

Porsche911R said:

an est lap I think that car can do BTG and how easy he is driving it as is.

7:55 for a 981 S

https://fastestlaps.com/models/porsche-cayman-s-98...

Carry on.

[Steve Rance]

It’s an interesting subject actually. A lot Depends on your driving style. I drive like this; my hands pick up what the the car is doing from the nose to the pivot point through the steering and my body/bum pick up what is going on from the rear. My brain then works out what I need to do from there. For that to work for me I need as much information through the wheel as possible and filter out what’s not necessary. I find it difficult to drive that way with a electric steering system because the maps can skew what’s going on. The 997 cup has electric steering an I had to think a lot more about driving it than the 996 because my brain had to fill in the gaps. It effected my race craft initially because- although I was pretty competitive quite quickly - it took more of my mental capacity to get there so I had less capacity remaining to manage the race.

For me, electric steering is something that I have to overcome. It’s subjective but - especially with a 911 ( cars that are driven in their noses ) steering g feel is so important. Some drivers are wired differently I suppose

[993rsr]

Steve Rance said:

It’s an interesting subject actually. A lot Depends on your driving style. I drive like this; my hands pick up what the the car is doing from the nose to the pivot point through the steering and my body/bum pick up what is going on from the rear. My brain then works out what I need to do from there. For that to work for me I need as much information through the wheel as possible and filter out what’s not necessary. I find it difficult to drive that way with a electric steering system because the maps can skew what’s going on. The 997 cup has electric steering an I had to think a lot more about driving it than the 996 because my brain had to fill in the gaps. It effected my race craft initially because- although I was pretty competitive quite quickly - it took more of my mental capacity to get there so I had less capacity remaining to manage the race.

For me, electric steering is something that I have to overcome. It’s subjective but - especially with a 911 ( cars that are driven in their noses ) steering g feel is so important. Some drivers are wired differently I suppose

I think it's more an adaptation to the EPS rather than something to overcome. I don't think EPS would hinder you more than another driver.

[Steve Rance]

993rsr said:

I think it's more an adaptation to the EPS rather than something to overcome. I don't think EPS would hinder you more than another driver.

Yep probably. I just never feel as far ‘in front’ of an eps car than I do with a non eps car. As you say, you just adapt - but then you jump into something like a 996 GT3RS and think how much better and involving it feels. It’s light and day different

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

If you like 981's buy one, no ones stopping you ;-)

I know, and it doesn't lessen the impact of your wonderfully measured and useful response at all.

Porsche911R said:

I go against the grain on here for good reason, does not make we wrong because a bigger % disagree with what I say.

What a pathetic and utterly pointless response, though if nothing else, it proves the old adage that arguing with idiots on the internet is completely pointless.
It's not a case of being right or wrong. That's your binary mindset at work (again) It's the ability to realise that the fact the majority tend to not agree with your views means their perspective probably has more credence than that of the loan apple in a barrel which makes a lot of noise. I suggest you Google that last bit.

Porsche911R said:

Most of the Posts I post which get neg feedback on here are then backed up by the likes of Steve Rance who tends to agree what I have posted in the main. so 99 people saying no and 1 saying yes, I'll take the One if it's Steve.

I'd suggest you read what Steve posts, rather than reading what you think/would like to believe he posts. The only thing I think he concurs with you on, is the fitment of passive dampers and a shorter F/D ratio on to the 997 GT3. Neither of which are salient in the context of this discussion.

Porsche911R said:

So having 90% people saying I am wrong who don't have a clue is meaning less :-) and it's always a fight to push my opinons over the the clueless who only want to own a "lifestye " product and are happy at swapping cogs at 5k revs.

And there you go again making more sweeping generalisations. Let's revert back to your comments on owners of PDK cars shall we ? 993 RSR and Yellow 491, both current or former owners of Gen 1 991 GT3/RS. Are they lesser drivers than you ? and do you consider them to be lesser enthusiasts because they owned/drove PDK equipped cars ?

Porsche911R said:

Long gearing, EPS, no brake feel is stuff I hate, and I stand by every thing I post and the reason why things things stand in the way of getting the best from a car I back up EVERY time.

And yet you bought a car with EPAS steering, and have said on numerous occasions it's the best car Porsche have made. How can that be so if it has the EPAS you hate so vehemently ?

Porsche911R said:

posting vids of people driving cars at 85% of the cars windows is pointless as is talking about drifting BMW's which any tw4t can do

You've become quite the expert at throwing percentages around when it comes to assessing how hard/fast someone is driving a/their car haven't you ?
As I recall you gave your expert opinion on Kevin Estre's lap of the 'Ring and were called out by several individuals who have more experience of racing and/or driving at the 'Ring than you'll ever have.

As ever in these matters, it's your opinion, and nothing more, it's certainly not fact, and as we've learnt over the years, your opinion all too frequently is merely hyperbole dressed up with bluster masquerading as fact. Fortunately the regular posters on here are all too aware of the difference.

As for your comments on "drifting", well they just serve to prove your lack of understanding of what I was saying, or alternatively it's you using your usual diversionary tactics, something you all too frequently resort to when you're talking nonsense.

Porsche911R said:

very easy cars to get the back out in a control mannor, again having owned both the 996 GT3 and the BMW CSL you talk about I think back to back in fact, although my next M3 the E92 v8 was even easier. I have never been able to drift any of my porkers in a way I am happy to piss about on the road doing so, and it's not my driving style, I am more pin point coming from Lotus, but a BMW you just drive like that, it's default.

I rarely drove my CSL in the manner you describe, and I NEVER drive my daily driver in that way. But as I said above, you've chosen to take my comments on the M6's steering out of context, either that, or you've elected to use your usual diversionary tactics to try and deflect attention from your inability to respond in a cogent manner to point I was making. But I guess when you're able to critique Kevin Estre's driving AND better qualified than Chris Harris to work out what makes a car good or bad, that's only to be expected.

Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 1st November 16:09

[Slippydiff]

993rsr said:

Steve Rance said:

It’s an interesting subject actually. A lot Depends on your driving style. I drive like this; my hands pick up what the the car is doing from the nose to the pivot point through the steering and my body/bum pick up what is going on from the rear. My brain then works out what I need to do from there. For that to work for me I need as much information through the wheel as possible and filter out what’s not necessary. I find it difficult to drive that way with a electric steering system because the maps can skew what’s going on. The 997 cup has electric steering an I had to think a lot more about driving it than the 996 because my brain had to fill in the gaps. It effected my race craft initially because- although I was pretty competitive quite quickly - it took more of my mental capacity to get there so I had less capacity remaining to manage the race.

For me, electric steering is something that I have to overcome. It’s subjective but - especially with a 911 ( cars that are driven in their noses ) steering g feel is so important. Some drivers are wired differently I suppose

I think it's more an adaptation to the EPS rather than something to overcome. I don't think EPS would hinder you more than another driver.

I hope you're well Steve ? Are your comments being sent from mid-Atlantic ??

I'd humbly suggest, that your 997 Cup did NOT have EPAS Steve. Rather, what it had was a power steering pump driven by an electric motor (rather than the engine)
EPAS and an electrically driven PAS pump are two very different things.
As ever though, I'm happy to be corrected in such matters

An EPAS rack frequently has the electric motor built into the rack to provide the assistance :



Whereas the electric power steering pump on your Cup (and John's old Mk1 996 GT3) looks like this :



A brief overview of EPAS can be found here :

https://carbiketech.com/epas/#:~:text=EPAS%20stand...

And if you're interested in the guts of the system Steve, here's an EPAS rack being stripped (NOT using the manufacturers recommended methods I hasten to add) and in this case, reassembly definitely won't be the reverse of disassembly ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOoefFvqOZM&t=...

Edit to add YT link of a rack being stripped (butchered)

Edited by Slippydiff on Monday 2nd November 23:09

[Porsche911R]

Steve Rance said:

It’s an interesting subject actually. A lot Depends on your driving style. I drive like this; my hands pick up what the the car is doing from the nose to the pivot point through the steering and my body/bum pick up what is going on from the rear. My brain then works out what I need to do from there. For that to work for me I need as much information through the wheel as possible and filter out what’s not necessary. I find it difficult to drive that way with a electric steering system because the maps can skew what’s going on.

how we both get to this point is the same, I also need all the feel at the front via the wheel to get as close to a Pro's time as possible and that inc threshold braking not just steering, esp in road cars on track where ABS just needs to be avoided at all costs to be fast.

Is it subjective ? , I just think you are being a bit more diplomatic them me :-)

[Porsche911R]

Slippydiff said:

Porsche911R said:
Long gearing, EPS, no brake feel is stuff I hate, and I stand by every thing I post and the reason why things things stand in the way of getting the best from a car I back up EVERY time.
And yet you bought a car with EPAS steering, and have said on numerous occasions it's the best car Porsche have made. How can that be so if it has the EPAS you hate so vehemently ?

I have owned a few EPS cars, and some I have sold after just 8 weeks as I hated them.
and it's the only reason I don't own a 981 GTS as a daily today. and I have kept my 987.2 Spyder 10 years !

Have you driven a 991.2 Manual with full CUP front monoballed sus arms ?

No, talking about or trying to tell me how it drives, when it's something you have never owned let alone driven is daft.

my cars offers all you need to drive it at max attack, a 981 S for me does not offer enough feed back for me to drive it at close to it's max operating window neither did the 981 Spyder, the 981 GT4 was pretty good in the dry but in the wet very lacking at the limit.

I 'll let you drive my 991.2 GT3 no issue if you think I am not being honest about it.

But I still went to view a 997 GT3 yesterday as I do feel it would make a nicer car for me to enjoy, even though it would be slower, but it free's up £50k and in this climate that's handy cash towards reducing mortgages.
If I were better off or lived in Germany I would be keeping the 991.2 Manual with its choice mods, I am god willing keeping it though 2021 summer though, so plenty of time for you to try out a sorted car if you so wish.

I do think the engine and the 991.2 GT3 Platform is a pretty epic drive but for me and how I like to drive it's too fast for comfort.

[Slippydiff]

Porsche911R said:

I have owned a few EPS cars, and some I have sold after just 8 weeks as I hated them.
and it's the only reason I don't own a 981 GTS as a daily today. and I have kept my 987.2 Spyder 10 years !

Have you driven a 991.2 Manual with full CUP front monoballed sus arms ?

No, talking about or trying to tell me how it drives, when it's something you have never owned let alone driven is daft.

my cars offers all you need to drive it at max attack, a 981 S for me does not offer enough feed back for me to drive it at close to it's max operating window neither did the 981 Spyder, the 981 GT4 was pretty good in the dry but in the wet very lacking at the limit.

I 'll let you drive my 991.2 GT3 no issue if you think I am not being honest about it.

But I still went to view a 997 GT3 yesterday as I do feel it would make a nicer car for me to enjoy, even though it would be slower, but it free's up £50k and in this climate that's handy cash towards reducing mortgages.
If I were better off or lived in Germany I would be keeping the 991.2 Manual with its choice mods, I am god willing keeping it though 2021 summer though, so plenty of time for you to try out a sorted car if you so wish.

I do think the engine and the 991.2 GT3 Platform is a pretty epic drive but for me and how I like to drive it's too fast for comfort.

I appreciate the kind offer David, but as I've said on here previously, there's little or indeed nothing in the way of watercooled GT3 models that hold any attraction for me beyond the 996. I understand that will make me appear blinkered and paroquial to many, and possible you too.

I can't deny I enjoyed my time behind the wheel of both my 997 GT3's, but I quickly realised that newer in the Porsche pantheon, wasn't better for me, and that last bit is a crucial distinction, as for many, newer IS better.

I found that as every iteration of the 911 was rolled out, it became more lacking in feel and further removed from the driving experience the aircooled cars provided.

For some, the aircooled "thing" is too slow, too noisy, too much like hard work (physically and mentally) and too high maintenance. All of which I get, one man's meat is another man's poison and all that.

I've no doubt a manual 991.2 GT3 is a truly wonderful car, but it's now totally irrelevant for my needs, that being for use on the road (as you know, I have zero interest in driving round and round in circles on track)

Even if I could escape the long of the law (and in this day and age, that's getting increasingly unlikely) I genuinely derive little pleasure from driving on the public roads at breakneck speeds. I've quite literally spent a lifetime since passing my test doing that, and it's no longer fun or acceptable from my perspective.

Truth be known, I found the Cayman R lacking in the real feel I wanted, it's chassis was just too damn good out of the box. Point to point on give and take roads, it really wasn't much slower than a 996 GT3 or a Gen1 997 GT3.
As you know, several years ago I outran a 987 Boxster Spyder (driven buy a madman, who also had a Gen 1 991 GT3) in my Manthey 996 GT3. I'm willing to acknowledge that part of that was my being familiar with the road in question, but a larger part was the steel brakes on the Spyder wilting under duress. Had it been equipped with PCCB's, I'm sure the outcome would've been different.

Having subsequently owned/driven the Cayman R (as opposed to its soft topped 987 brother) I knew who was working harder behind the wheel that day, and from my perspective, was having more fun as result.
Extracting speed from older cars is hugely rewarding for me, even if ultimately they're slower than their newer cousins (which let's face it, 9 times out of 10 they are).

As I said, thank you for the kind offer of a drive of the GT3, I'm sure it would be illuminating and probably eye opening, but it wouldn't really serve any purpose other than to confirm just how efficient at demolishing our roads a modern 911 is !!

[Steve Rance]

Slippydiff said:

I rarely drove my CSL in the manner you describe, and I NEVER drive my daily driver in that way. But as I said above, you've chosen to take my comments on the M6's steering out of context, either that, or you've elected to use your usual diversionary tactics to try and deflect attention from your inability to respond in a cogent manner to point I was making. But I guess when you're able to critique Kevin Estre's driving AND better qualified than Chris Harris to work out what makes a car good or bad, that's only to be expected.

Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 1st November 16:09

Hi Slippy

Hope you are well. Yep, was aware that the system was not EPAS. That would be far worse as a racing proposition. There is a big difference in the steering delivery between the two systems on the 996 and 997 cups. And as you say, the system in the 997 is far from EPAS.

Not on the ARC this year. Too sketchy with access to different countries. I’ll probably skulk across to the Med somewhere in the spring ( If there are no quarantine issues) then go across the atlantic with the ARC in the Autumn 2021.

That’s good because I’m looking forward to getting some track time in before I go.

[Slippydiff]

Steve Rance said:

Slippydiff said:

I rarely drove my CSL in the manner you describe, and I NEVER drive my daily driver in that way. But as I said above, you've chosen to take my comments on the M6's steering out of context, either that, or you've elected to use your usual diversionary tactics to try and deflect attention from your inability to respond in a cogent manner to point I was making. But I guess when you're able to critique Kevin Estre's driving AND better qualified than Chris Harris to work out what makes a car good or bad, that's only to be expected.

Edited by Slippydiff on Sunday 1st November 16:09

Hi Slippy

Hope you are well. Yep, was aware that the system was not EPAS. That would be far worse as a racing proposition. There is a big difference in the steering delivery between the two systems on the 996 and 997 cups. And as you say, the system in the 997 is far from EPAS.

Not on the ARC this year. Too sketchy with access to different countries. I’ll probably skulk across to the Med somewhere in the spring ( If there are no quarantine issues) then go across the atlantic with the ARC in the Autumn 2021.

That’s good because I’m looking forward to getting some track time in before I go.

Hi Steve, a tour of the Med sounds good

There's no doubt the 997 Cup's electric power steering pump further corrupts the signals/feedback received through the wheel. It was fine on the road, though occasionally lacked consistency (falsely weighing up for no obvious reason) but I'd imagine that on track it could complicate matters when least expected ...

[Tripe Bypass]

Slippydiff said:

Hi Steve, a tour of the Med sounds good

There's no doubt the 997 Cup's electric power steering pump further corrupts the signals/feedback received through the wheel. It was fine on the road, though occasionally lacked consistency (falsely weighing up for no obvious reason) but I'd imagine that on track it could complicate matters when least expected ...

I wonder why an EPHS (Electric Power Hydraulic System) has a more corrupted feel than a traditional hydraulic system that uses a pump driven off the engine? The steering rack wouldn't be any different. The pump kicking in and out due to demand and therefore changing the feel?

[nw942]

Tripe Bypass said:

Slippydiff said:

Hi Steve, a tour of the Med sounds good

There's no doubt the 997 Cup's electric power steering pump further corrupts the signals/feedback received through the wheel. It was fine on the road, though occasionally lacked consistency (falsely weighing up for no obvious reason) but I'd imagine that on track it could complicate matters when least expected ...

I wonder why an EPHS (Electric Power Hydraulic System) has a more corrupted feel than a traditional hydraulic system that uses a pump driven off the engine? The steering rack wouldn't be any different. The pump kicking in and out due to demand and therefore changing the feel?

Yes, I think the amount of assistance will dynamically change based on vehicle speed and steering angle (and perhaps other sensors), so it is slightly less consistent/predictable.

[Tripe Bypass]

nw942 said:

Tripe Bypass said:

Slippydiff said:

Hi Steve, a tour of the Med sounds good

There's no doubt the 997 Cup's electric power steering pump further corrupts the signals/feedback received through the wheel. It was fine on the road, though occasionally lacked consistency (falsely weighing up for no obvious reason) but I'd imagine that on track it could complicate matters when least expected ...

I wonder why an EPHS (Electric Power Hydraulic System) has a more corrupted feel than a traditional hydraulic system that uses a pump driven off the engine? The steering rack wouldn't be any different. The pump kicking in and out due to demand and therefore changing the feel?

Yes, I think the amount of assistance will dynamically change based on vehicle speed and steering angle (and perhaps other sensors), so it is slightly less consistent/predictable.

But that electric pump in the Cup cars is from an old Astra. There's no CANBUS, no sensors at all, just power and the ignition cable running to it.