993 NB @ £80K with 84k miles...really?!
Discussion
Interesting read on asset bubbles here:
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/10/5-...
"Five Steps of a Bubble
Minsky identified five stages in a typical credit cycle – displacement, boom, euphoria, profit taking and panic. Although there are various interpretations of the cycle, the general pattern of bubble activity remains fairly consistent.
Displacement: A displacement occurs when investors get enamored by a new paradigm, such as an innovative new technology or interest rates that are historically low. A classic example of displacement is the decline in the federal funds rate from 6.5% in May, 2000, to 1% in June, 2003. Over this three-year period, the interest rate on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages fell by 2.5 percentage points to a historic lows of 5.21%, sowing the seeds for the housing bubble.
["New cars are anodyne"]
Boom: Prices rise slowly at first, following a displacement, but then gain momentum as more and more participants enter the market, setting the stage for the boom phase. During this phase, the asset in question attracts widespread media coverage. Fear of missing out on what could be an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity spurs more speculation, drawing an increasing number of participants into the fold.
["Newbie looking to buy a 911"]
Euphoria: During this phase,caution is thrown to the wind, as asset prices skyrocket. The "greater fool" theory plays out everywhere.
Valuations reach extreme levels during this phase. For example, at the peak of the Japanese real estate bubble in 1989, land in Tokyo sold for as much as $139,000 per square foot, or more than 350-times the value of Manhattan property. After the bubble burst, real estate lost approximately 80% of its inflated value, while stock prices declined by 70%. Similarly, at the height of the internet bubble in March, 2000, the combined value of all technology stocks on the Nasdaq was higher than the GDP of most nations. During the euphoric phase, new valuation measures and metrics are touted to justify the relentless rise in asset prices.
["They're really worth it, these air-cooled things; they're special"]
Profit Taking: By this time, the smart money – heeding the warning signs – is generally selling out positions and taking profits. But estimating the exact time when a bubble is due to collapse can be a difficult exercise and extremely hazardous to one's financial health, because, as John Maynard Keynes put it, "the markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
[Are we there yet?]
Panic: In the panic stage, asset prices reverse course and descend as rapidly as they had ascended. Investors and speculators, faced with margin calls and plunging values of their holdings, now want to liquidate them at any price. As supply overwhelms demand, asset prices slide sharply."
[Not trying to offend anyone; just think it looks spookily appropriate.]
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/stocks/10/5-...
"Five Steps of a Bubble
Minsky identified five stages in a typical credit cycle – displacement, boom, euphoria, profit taking and panic. Although there are various interpretations of the cycle, the general pattern of bubble activity remains fairly consistent.
Displacement: A displacement occurs when investors get enamored by a new paradigm, such as an innovative new technology or interest rates that are historically low. A classic example of displacement is the decline in the federal funds rate from 6.5% in May, 2000, to 1% in June, 2003. Over this three-year period, the interest rate on 30-year fixed-rate mortgages fell by 2.5 percentage points to a historic lows of 5.21%, sowing the seeds for the housing bubble.
["New cars are anodyne"]
Boom: Prices rise slowly at first, following a displacement, but then gain momentum as more and more participants enter the market, setting the stage for the boom phase. During this phase, the asset in question attracts widespread media coverage. Fear of missing out on what could be an once-in-a-lifetime opportunity spurs more speculation, drawing an increasing number of participants into the fold.
["Newbie looking to buy a 911"]
Euphoria: During this phase,caution is thrown to the wind, as asset prices skyrocket. The "greater fool" theory plays out everywhere.
Valuations reach extreme levels during this phase. For example, at the peak of the Japanese real estate bubble in 1989, land in Tokyo sold for as much as $139,000 per square foot, or more than 350-times the value of Manhattan property. After the bubble burst, real estate lost approximately 80% of its inflated value, while stock prices declined by 70%. Similarly, at the height of the internet bubble in March, 2000, the combined value of all technology stocks on the Nasdaq was higher than the GDP of most nations. During the euphoric phase, new valuation measures and metrics are touted to justify the relentless rise in asset prices.
["They're really worth it, these air-cooled things; they're special"]
Profit Taking: By this time, the smart money – heeding the warning signs – is generally selling out positions and taking profits. But estimating the exact time when a bubble is due to collapse can be a difficult exercise and extremely hazardous to one's financial health, because, as John Maynard Keynes put it, "the markets can stay irrational longer than you can stay solvent."
[Are we there yet?]
Panic: In the panic stage, asset prices reverse course and descend as rapidly as they had ascended. Investors and speculators, faced with margin calls and plunging values of their holdings, now want to liquidate them at any price. As supply overwhelms demand, asset prices slide sharply."
[Not trying to offend anyone; just think it looks spookily appropriate.]
Steve Rance said:
Mmmmm.
So is it the man who has the most in the bank when he dies who’s got it right, or the man with the most toys in his toy cupboard and had as much fun with them?
I’ll take the latter thank you.
I'd agree with Steve (in theory).So is it the man who has the most in the bank when he dies who’s got it right, or the man with the most toys in his toy cupboard and had as much fun with them?
I’ll take the latter thank you.
However some people can't afford to spend silly amounts of their toys or afford to take a hit if their toys take a big drop.
I have been fortunate enough to own most of the air-cooled 911 models over the years and during the 80s and 90s I was always glad to move on to the latest model - invariably better than its predecessor (making the 993 the best, looks aside).
I made the mistake of going back to three of them a while ago and, with the notable exception of a very early 911, it was a disappointing reunion.
Wish I had kept them all from a financial perspective though....
I made the mistake of going back to three of them a while ago and, with the notable exception of a very early 911, it was a disappointing reunion.
Wish I had kept them all from a financial perspective though....
Edited by Discombobulate on Thursday 19th July 21:57
g7jhp said:
Prices jumped literally overnight.
And IMI A spending £160k on a custom air-cooled 911 would be nuts as you'd never get your money back. Better to buy a car which has already been created and let someone else take the hit (or buy a mint 3.2, 964, 993).
Prices have been on an upward trend since they stopped making air-cooled in 1998. Its arguable whether anything after is really a 911 and I say that as a 997 kettle owner. Prices spiked between 2012 and 2016 and have plateaud since.And IMI A spending £160k on a custom air-cooled 911 would be nuts as you'd never get your money back. Better to buy a car which has already been created and let someone else take the hit (or buy a mint 3.2, 964, 993).
How is spending £160,000 on your own custom made older 911 any different to walking into a showroom as thousands of people do every day and buy their fave supercar like an NSX, 570s, R8, Huracan and 991.2 turbo s? Their owners never going to get their money back either but I suspect enjoying life is more important to them than a few quid in the bank.
OP posted nb 993 for £80,000 with 84,000 miles because he was shocked at how expensive it seems. I was just trying to show that there are cars with 84,000 miles in better condition than cars with 24,000 miles. In fact I showed another even higher mile 993 nb with 91,000 miles for £120,000
I must be nutty
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I wonder how you'd feel about a 91,000 mile 993 Carrera 2 RS pastiche for £120,000 after driving her - I've driven her and would buy her ahead any other £120k car inc something amazing like a 991.1 GT3 and she's certainly not an investor grade car like a GT3. Lovely old thing but not one for the purists or investor 
IMI A said:
Prices have been on an upward trend since they stopped making air-cooled in 1998. Its arguable whether anything after is really a 911 and I say that as a 997 kettle owner. Prices spiked between 2012 and 2016 and have plateaud since.
How is spending £160,000 on your own custom made older 911 any different to walking into a showroom as thousands of people do every day and buy their fave supercar like an NSX, 570s, R8, Huracan and 991.2 turbo s? Their owners never going to get their money back either but I suspect enjoying life is more important to them than a few quid in the bank.
OP posted nb 993 for £80,000 with 84,000 miles because he was shocked at how expensive it seems. I was just trying to show that there are cars with 84,000 miles in better condition than cars with 24,000 miles. In fact I showed another even higher mile 993 nb with 91,000 miles for £120,000
I must be nutty
Prices rocketed due to speculators.How is spending £160,000 on your own custom made older 911 any different to walking into a showroom as thousands of people do every day and buy their fave supercar like an NSX, 570s, R8, Huracan and 991.2 turbo s? Their owners never going to get their money back either but I suspect enjoying life is more important to them than a few quid in the bank.
OP posted nb 993 for £80,000 with 84,000 miles because he was shocked at how expensive it seems. I was just trying to show that there are cars with 84,000 miles in better condition than cars with 24,000 miles. In fact I showed another even higher mile 993 nb with 91,000 miles for £120,000
I must be nutty
The £80k 84k mile 993 is silly money. The guards red car at £56k at 911 Virgin would be a better buy. Leaving you £24k for running/ mods.
The '91k 993nb for £120k as you describle it' looks like Jackel's 993 RS replica which at least has been done properly. It's as close as you get to an RS
£27k 330bhp engine
RS seats
RS Speedline wheels
RS suspension
Sunroof delete
+ everything else RS
It's been up for £120k for a while so the market still sees it as too pricey, but you only need one buyer. It's a niche market so small pool of buyers. At £100k it would have sold.
My old 993, up for 75k. I sold it for just under 30 from memory around 2011-2012. Good car, very tight, do I see it at 75k tho?. Would love another, but sadly unlikely to happen the way prices have gone.
https://www.paul-stephens.com/porsche-993-c2s-1996
https://www.paul-stephens.com/porsche-993-c2s-1996
Here's another worn out tired 964 turned into something amazing by RPM. You can go on about how expensive air - cooled are or simply enjoy how special they are and how they make you feel. They're never getting any cheaper in the foreseeable future and they're not making them any more. One of the nicest 964s I've seen. Credit to the owner and RPM 
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I agree but who knows if we'll be around to enjoy them when/if that happens. The future looks good for air cooled though. When I had the black 3.2 Carrera you drove I remember two 13 year old kids walking past her when parked at prep school. "Proper car that," I heard one say to the other. This was in a school car park full of newish Bentleys, Rolls, Ferrari and Lambos
IMI A said:
Another pic for you
No idea what she cost to build but worth every penny IMO .
I’ve seen this car at Silverstone a few times now. It’s truly lovely. Nothing like driving a well set up air cooled 911. They offer a unique and tactile experience. Such a shame that that’s are inaccessible to many genuine enthusiasts. No idea what she cost to build but worth every penny IMO .
g7jhp said:
IMI A said:
Prices have been on an upward trend since they stopped making air-cooled in 1998. Its arguable whether anything after is really a 911 and I say that as a 997 kettle owner. Prices spiked between 2012 and 2016 and have plateaud since.
How is spending £160,000 on your own custom made older 911 any different to walking into a showroom as thousands of people do every day and buy their fave supercar like an NSX, 570s, R8, Huracan and 991.2 turbo s? Their owners never going to get their money back either but I suspect enjoying life is more important to them than a few quid in the bank.
OP posted nb 993 for £80,000 with 84,000 miles because he was shocked at how expensive it seems. I was just trying to show that there are cars with 84,000 miles in better condition than cars with 24,000 miles. In fact I showed another even higher mile 993 nb with 91,000 miles for £120,000
I must be nutty
Prices rocketed due to speculators.How is spending £160,000 on your own custom made older 911 any different to walking into a showroom as thousands of people do every day and buy their fave supercar like an NSX, 570s, R8, Huracan and 991.2 turbo s? Their owners never going to get their money back either but I suspect enjoying life is more important to them than a few quid in the bank.
OP posted nb 993 for £80,000 with 84,000 miles because he was shocked at how expensive it seems. I was just trying to show that there are cars with 84,000 miles in better condition than cars with 24,000 miles. In fact I showed another even higher mile 993 nb with 91,000 miles for £120,000
I must be nutty
The £80k 84k mile 993 is silly money. The guards red car at £56k at 911 Virgin would be a better buy. Leaving you £24k for running/ mods.
The '91k 993nb for £120k as you describle it' looks like Jackel's 993 RS replica which at least has been done properly. It's as close as you get to an RS
£27k 330bhp engine
RS seats
RS Speedline wheels
RS suspension
Sunroof delete
+ everything else RS
It's been up for £120k for a while so the market still sees it as too pricey, but you only need one buyer. It's a niche market so small pool of buyers. At £100k it would have sold.
How much should this nb 964 with 3.8 build be? Purchaser bought her with 28,000 miles ex Brunei car for £85,000 from Tech 9 then built the engine to 300bhp + spec for £40,000
So its cost owner £125,000 + maybe more as you can see the suspension has also been upgraded.
Its a shame they have zeroed the speedo since engine rebuild but even though not 993 be very interesting to see what she sells for. There will be more and more custom cars like this going forward as owners indulging themselves a bit by tinkering and optimising their old bangers. I suspect the owner will lose little of his outlay on this beauty. Tempted to go and have look at her myself
anonymous said:
[redacted]
It was built by half naked fairies?Although to be fair my old 200 bhp Beetle engine would probably cost somewhere between £10-12k for a complete running engine with carbs etc if it was built today. And that's with a competed running car in excellent condition being worth no more than £20k or so, so I can see people paying £40k for a 400 bhp 964 engine when you consider what the finished car would be worth as has already been mentioned
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