Which Porsche would you modify/hot rod and why?
Discussion
phib said:
Steve Rance said:
Yes. I can under that. I can imagine that my 964 would feel a little cumbersome if there wasn’t so much weight removed.
I am constantly drawn towards an early 911 as a base car with super sharp dynamics.
They are really good, I supect (but havent weighed it) but suspect it is c. 900kg when I have finished with it, I will pm you I am constantly drawn towards an early 911 as a base car with super sharp dynamics.
Phib
I could do some serious digging, but being lazy can anyone just chip-in and say where most of the weight has been added from 911 to 964/993?
I understand if the answer is 'everywhere' - is it simply that more and more comfort, insulation, heavier seats, a/c, underbody protection is the real difference, or is that the actual mechanical components weigh more?
I will find the CLR thread where Rich listed out the weight of what he removed, albeit on a 996.
Taken from Rich's build thread..... interesting numbers on cost vs weight reduction...
(but PH formatting means my spreadsheet looks like pants so here is a summary)
so... in a 996
Easy stuff to remove - not fixed - 16kg
HiFi - 10kg
insulation/trim/carpets/rear wiper - 15kg
front/rear impact bars plus a few other tiny bits - 10kg
airbags + bits/bobs 996 specific stuff - 12kg
roughly 64kg
then all the difficult/expensive stuff Rich did - this is reduction over OE
Seats 25kg
wheels 23kg
ac/pas 21kg
Exhaust 21kg
remove sunroof - carbon roof - 18kg
battery - 15kg
2x doors - carbon - 10kg
bonnet - carbon - 9kg
ducktail - carbon - 6kg
clutch - 5.9kg
wings - carbon - 5.4kg
..........then about ten smaller wins
roughly 180kg
Hat is off to Rich again - he is a cyclepath
So the answer is... yes it's 'everything' that is heavier..
However Rich's numbers prove that you can clearly have some quick and reversible wins.
If you just take his seats, wheels, carbon bonnet and lid, battery, and remove hifi and some insulation/carpet, you lose 104kg
(but PH formatting means my spreadsheet looks like pants so here is a summary)
so... in a 996
Easy stuff to remove - not fixed - 16kg
HiFi - 10kg
insulation/trim/carpets/rear wiper - 15kg
front/rear impact bars plus a few other tiny bits - 10kg
airbags + bits/bobs 996 specific stuff - 12kg
roughly 64kg
then all the difficult/expensive stuff Rich did - this is reduction over OE
Seats 25kg
wheels 23kg
ac/pas 21kg
Exhaust 21kg
remove sunroof - carbon roof - 18kg
battery - 15kg
2x doors - carbon - 10kg
bonnet - carbon - 9kg
ducktail - carbon - 6kg
clutch - 5.9kg
wings - carbon - 5.4kg
..........then about ten smaller wins
roughly 180kg
Hat is off to Rich again - he is a cyclepath
So the answer is... yes it's 'everything' that is heavier..
However Rich's numbers prove that you can clearly have some quick and reversible wins.
If you just take his seats, wheels, carbon bonnet and lid, battery, and remove hifi and some insulation/carpet, you lose 104kg
Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 29th January 12:10
Orangecurry said:
That's a really interesting point.
I could do some serious digging, but being lazy can anyone just chip-in and say where most of the weight has been added from 911 to 964/993?
I understand if the answer is 'everywhere' - is it simply that more and more comfort, insulation, heavier seats, a/c, underbody protection is the real difference, or is that the actual mechanical components weigh more?
I will find the CLR thread where Rich listed out the weight of what he removed, albeit on a 996.
My 964 comes in at around 1225 kg with half a tank of feul. It has a fair bit of weight removed but i wanted to be comfortable on longer tours so it still has air con and electric windows. I kept the sound deadening becuause the car was in very good order and i didnt want to rip it out but it has light weight carpets and no rear seats. Factory sunroof delete probably helped. It feels light, agile and definately powerful enough but I think that one day an early aircooled hot rod will join it in my garage. I could do some serious digging, but being lazy can anyone just chip-in and say where most of the weight has been added from 911 to 964/993?
I understand if the answer is 'everywhere' - is it simply that more and more comfort, insulation, heavier seats, a/c, underbody protection is the real difference, or is that the actual mechanical components weigh more?
I will find the CLR thread where Rich listed out the weight of what he removed, albeit on a 996.
marine boy said:
My 964 C2 weighs 1138kg
Only lightweight parts added are wheels and a cat delete pipe
Total weight saved 206.375kg from just unbolting stuff and yes I'm sad so kept a record of every gram saved
Project is on hold but I'm aiming for a 964kg Porsche 964 for mountain road driving
Can you add the list here?Only lightweight parts added are wheels and a cat delete pipe
Total weight saved 206.375kg from just unbolting stuff and yes I'm sad so kept a record of every gram saved
Project is on hold but I'm aiming for a 964kg Porsche 964 for mountain road driving
Don't have a spread sheet or list, just kept a running total on a build blog...
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/739926-proje...
Nothing refined in my approach, aim was to get it down to it's bare bones weight before taking a more refined approach
Stock power to weight is 184 BHP/ton, mine is now 217 BHP/ton, similar affect to going from 274 BHP to 292 BHP on a stock C2. I've not spent a £, even made a few £'s selling off a few parts
Wheels by far had the single biggest impact on the driving experience, really brought the car alive, felt almost like I'd taken a 100kg chunk off the chassis. That was a big learning day!
Next phase is changing a few of the low hanging fruit parts to lightweight parts ie seats, exhaust, battery, lightweight flywheel etc should get down to 1075kgs
After that I'll get serious starting with a bare shell rebuild on a high carbon diet
really looking forward to starting this hopefully early next year, just got a garage to finish building first
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/739926-proje...
Nothing refined in my approach, aim was to get it down to it's bare bones weight before taking a more refined approach
Stock power to weight is 184 BHP/ton, mine is now 217 BHP/ton, similar affect to going from 274 BHP to 292 BHP on a stock C2. I've not spent a £, even made a few £'s selling off a few parts
Wheels by far had the single biggest impact on the driving experience, really brought the car alive, felt almost like I'd taken a 100kg chunk off the chassis. That was a big learning day!
Next phase is changing a few of the low hanging fruit parts to lightweight parts ie seats, exhaust, battery, lightweight flywheel etc should get down to 1075kgs
After that I'll get serious starting with a bare shell rebuild on a high carbon diet
really looking forward to starting this hopefully early next year, just got a garage to finish building firstOrangecurry said:
Thanks Steve - so what did you remove? I presume sunroof-delete kept the steel roof, and filled-in the hole with steel?
No work needed Orange as it had the factory sunroof delete option when it was ordered. Interestingly also specked was a factory LSD. These were the main reasons that I bought the car. Great project marine boy. What wheels have you fitted?
marine boy said:
Don't have a spread sheet or list, just kept a running total on a build blog...
https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/739926-proje...
Holy moly Marine Boy - I've just read through that. I still can't work out what you do - designer, engineer or driver, after your 'incident' in 2017 and being saved by Mrs MB.https://rennlist.com/forums/964-forum/739926-proje...
Steve, thanks, really like what you've done to your car, wheels are 8/9 x 17 Fikse Mach V's, made in the USA but a lucky find on German Ebay, saved 17.6kgs over my MM reps
O'curry, good effort reading my old thread, just skimmed through to remind myself what went on, it's a long read, spans living in 3 countries, 2 life times and many, many grams of weight saving
Sorry to disappoint I'm only a design engineer that can't drive for toffee
O'curry, good effort reading my old thread, just skimmed through to remind myself what went on, it's a long read, spans living in 3 countries, 2 life times and many, many grams of weight saving
Sorry to disappoint I'm only a design engineer that can't drive for toffee
I've been looking at building a pre 74 911 hot rod keep coming back to the same circular journey. It has to be a pre 74 car. I dont like the idea of backdating a 911 as I think that each aircolled iteration has its own charm and identity and i wouldnt want to change that. i appreciate that my thinking is flawed becuse I would be fundamentally changing what was beneath the skin anyway - But to my twisted brain, the honesty of the car changes when you start changing the body panels. I know - its a weird perception and ive seen some very nicely back dated 911's.
Anyway, this is my circle of confusion
1. pre 74 Donor cars are very expensive
2. The engine build costs to the spec i want is also very expensive
3. To get the dynamics from the chassis i want would be very expensive
4. There will probably be a lot of chasis and body repair work required before the build could even start
5. Why not buy another 964 and go for an extreme build?
6. You've already got one of those and its exactly what you wanted from the build and it's a keeper
7. Ok. well keep that and build something even more extreme for days when your brain is scrambled - but how often would i drive it?
8. Ok Why not buy another vanillar 997 and build that up
9. MMMMM.. Good idea but it wont engage like an aircooled when you are stuck behind Ms.Daisy..
10. AGHHHHHHH
11. Ok what about a pre 74 car then
1. pre 74 Donor cars are very expensive
Having looked at the costs of building something which would suit my requirments and building it to the spec of my 964, it would cost at least 2 to 3 times the total build cost.
I think that from my perspecive the boat for building a pre 74 hot rod may have well and truly sailed and what is striking is just how cheap - in the world of hot rod 911's - a 964 is to build up by comparison. Also how good the platform is as a starting point.
The 997GT3 really appreals but I already have a 997 Cup. MMMmm maybe i can convert that to road legal instead - but then it wouldnt be as much fun on the track
I drove another 991 GT3 recently and i really wanted to like it - but it left me with the feeling that the car cast more than just a nod to Automotive necrophillia. No offence meant to any owners. It really is an extremely capable car but to me (subjective of course) it was too fast, too capable and benignly uninvolving.
Third world problems..
Anyway, this is my circle of confusion
1. pre 74 Donor cars are very expensive
2. The engine build costs to the spec i want is also very expensive
3. To get the dynamics from the chassis i want would be very expensive
4. There will probably be a lot of chasis and body repair work required before the build could even start
5. Why not buy another 964 and go for an extreme build?
6. You've already got one of those and its exactly what you wanted from the build and it's a keeper
7. Ok. well keep that and build something even more extreme for days when your brain is scrambled - but how often would i drive it?
8. Ok Why not buy another vanillar 997 and build that up
9. MMMMM.. Good idea but it wont engage like an aircooled when you are stuck behind Ms.Daisy..
10. AGHHHHHHH
11. Ok what about a pre 74 car then
1. pre 74 Donor cars are very expensive
Having looked at the costs of building something which would suit my requirments and building it to the spec of my 964, it would cost at least 2 to 3 times the total build cost.
I think that from my perspecive the boat for building a pre 74 hot rod may have well and truly sailed and what is striking is just how cheap - in the world of hot rod 911's - a 964 is to build up by comparison. Also how good the platform is as a starting point.
The 997GT3 really appreals but I already have a 997 Cup. MMMmm maybe i can convert that to road legal instead - but then it wouldnt be as much fun on the track
I drove another 991 GT3 recently and i really wanted to like it - but it left me with the feeling that the car cast more than just a nod to Automotive necrophillia. No offence meant to any owners. It really is an extremely capable car but to me (subjective of course) it was too fast, too capable and benignly uninvolving.
Third world problems..
The maths is very hard as it all adds up so quickly. This is how I have got on so far. I bought my US 69 2.0l from the importer/restorer. Did a bit of a deal with p/ex'ing a 3.0SC project and a 2.0 914. But trying to be realistic the car cost me about £65k (4 years ago). It's a bit of a bitsa, non-matching T spec car with a previously injected 2.0E motor on webers. Nice plain interior with very nice repro seats. S brakes. 15x6 Fuchs.
I've run it since then and only done a few things. Changed the rear torsion bars for slightly stiffer and added a factory rear arb. Will also be adding a front arb as part of the current project.
The 2.0 motor is very tired and needs help. One plan was rebuild to S spec and go to MFI. That is just daftly serious money, guessing at 30k. I came across a used 2.4S "spec" motor for sale complete ad running and in a car. The motor is also known to my fav engine builder who checked it out (pressures, leakdown, rolling road). It has a clean bill of health at somewhere in the region of 190bhp - perfect for me.
I'm doing the transplant myself and someone's workshop who is helping with the tricky stuff. So all in all it won't be a terribly clever hotrod as it's essentially 2.4S spec with a 901 box.
Costs:
Car 65k
Arb and rear torsion bar change 1k
Replacement motor 9k
Sale of old motor (4k)
Motor change project incl front arb say 3,000
Grand total 74k
Maybe, possibly worth that for sale ish.
I think anything that involves a resto, cutting out rust and doing new paint is just excruciatingly expensive.. I'm lucky that the starting point wasn't that far away from the destination. And I really wanted MFI, which I have got!
Bert
I've run it since then and only done a few things. Changed the rear torsion bars for slightly stiffer and added a factory rear arb. Will also be adding a front arb as part of the current project.
The 2.0 motor is very tired and needs help. One plan was rebuild to S spec and go to MFI. That is just daftly serious money, guessing at 30k. I came across a used 2.4S "spec" motor for sale complete ad running and in a car. The motor is also known to my fav engine builder who checked it out (pressures, leakdown, rolling road). It has a clean bill of health at somewhere in the region of 190bhp - perfect for me.
I'm doing the transplant myself and someone's workshop who is helping with the tricky stuff. So all in all it won't be a terribly clever hotrod as it's essentially 2.4S spec with a 901 box.
Costs:
Car 65k
Arb and rear torsion bar change 1k
Replacement motor 9k
Sale of old motor (4k)
Motor change project incl front arb say 3,000
Grand total 74k
Maybe, possibly worth that for sale ish.
I think anything that involves a resto, cutting out rust and doing new paint is just excruciatingly expensive.. I'm lucky that the starting point wasn't that far away from the destination. And I really wanted MFI, which I have got!
Bert
As I think i have said before I think you buy the highest mileage/well maintained/solid 964 RS you can find. Take the original engine out, put some modern/updated suspension on it, keep all the original bits on a shelf. Already has a close ratio gearbox, it’s quite light at 1200 kg already and obviously has that stiffened seam welded body shell. Put an RSR engine in it and if you ever wanted to sell you can put it back to original spec and sell your RSR engine. Job done.
Pre 74 car I think you need to find a good solid car that someone else has done to make it viable....if you can find a car that doesn’t need bodywork that is potentially a big part of the budget saved. Maybe an abandoned restoration which do come up.
Pre 74 car I think you need to find a good solid car that someone else has done to make it viable....if you can find a car that doesn’t need bodywork that is potentially a big part of the budget saved. Maybe an abandoned restoration which do come up.
I don't think early 911s are beyond hot rodding, plenty of people do with great results. Bert seems to have found a nice formula at sensible money which isn't easy and takes some time. Often more economical to buy someone else's bills if you find the right car.
A friend of mine is about to embark on a build using a 73 base car with the aim of having relatively standard 73 T/E/S looks and a 2.7RS+ spec MFI motor. Will probably cost double Bert's car but everything will be as new and to his spec as he is building this as a long term keeper. You could always make the car more comfortable or track focused to your taste but a well sorted 250BHP 911 weighing less than 1000kgs is always going to be fun.
A friend of mine is about to embark on a build using a 73 base car with the aim of having relatively standard 73 T/E/S looks and a 2.7RS+ spec MFI motor. Will probably cost double Bert's car but everything will be as new and to his spec as he is building this as a long term keeper. You could always make the car more comfortable or track focused to your taste but a well sorted 250BHP 911 weighing less than 1000kgs is always going to be fun.
,i would say that you struggle to find the difference in a f series and g series shell if you go changing suspension etc,they work pretty much the same.
Can't comment on quality of finished product but they seem to have sussed the outlaw style:
https://www.machine-revival.com/index.php/vehicule...
also really like what ROCS do: https://www.rocsauto.com/[url]
With a very limited budget I am doing my hot-rod/survivor build, I thought about backdating it but that has been done to death so will stick with impact bumpers!
|https://thumbsnap.com/DyAHGSeU[/url]
https://www.machine-revival.com/index.php/vehicule...
also really like what ROCS do: https://www.rocsauto.com/[url]
With a very limited budget I am doing my hot-rod/survivor build, I thought about backdating it but that has been done to death so will stick with impact bumpers!
|https://thumbsnap.com/DyAHGSeU[/url]Gassing Station | Porsche Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff