Porsche 993 test drive?

[stichill99]

I agree with Orangecurry that a test drive will not really give you the full picture. I had a 987 boxster and was getting married and new that kids would come along so wanted a Porsche to keep as a classic/weekend toy! I bought one from a specialist never having driven one before and on the way home I was thinking 'what the hell have i done'
7 years later I think it was the best move I ever made and love the car but it took me months to get to know it! It only took a few weeks to be pointing in the wrong direction on a slow 90 degree bend though!

[ketan.jina]

stichill99 said:

I agree with Orangecurry that a test drive will not really give you the full picture. I had a 987 boxster and was getting married and new that kids would come along so wanted a Porsche to keep as a classic/weekend toy! I bought one from a specialist never having driven one before and on the way home I was thinking 'what the hell have i done'
7 years later I think it was the best move I ever made and love the car but it took me months to get to know it! It only took a few weeks to be pointing in the wrong direction on a slow 90 degree bend though!

Oh dear! I think having the seller drive aswell is probably a good indicator. I think someone mentioned that before. I think forums like this are important to get an understanding of what ownership is like, without which I think I would be put off. I've started to look at maintenance vids for 993s now, and an oil change interesting!

[ketan.jina]

C4ME said:

Wait till you get to adjusting the valve clearances on a 964 if you decide to go in that direction :- )

One reason a 964 costs more to service.

Its begs the question, for a typical year of a 993 ownership what are the maintenance jobs that people usually do, either themselves or by a shop and the associated costs? I'd like to think that I can do some of them, but most I could imagine I'd be too scared to do.

[Orangecurry]

Nothing to be scared about on a 993 - it's a Meccano set.

Schedule is:
Every 12k
Oil change (easy - you don't need to do the filters)
Air filter (easy)
Pollen filters? (easy)

Every 24k
2xoil filters change (easy once you are used to it)
Spark plugs. (from memory 1 is difficult, because of access, 5 remaining upper plugs are quite difficult, but only because you have to move stuff out of the way and need slightly convoluted joints on the socket set, and the lower six are easy)

Capacity is 11.5? litres of oil - a proper dry-sump setup. On a change, I get 9.5 out, as there are 2 litres in the front radiator and the pipes that run to it along the driver's side.
I use Mahle filters and Mobil Super 2000 10w40 which is an SL specification - it's counter intuitive but you actually want older oil specification for older engines.

Gearbox oil every 60k? Awkward, but not difficult.

Brakes are easy, and you can get OEM Sebro discs from ECP that arrive in Porsche-numbered boxes. Get Textar pads.

Bleeding the clutch slave cylinder is awkward, and should be done when you bleed the brakes. All easy on a C2. I think the C4 and Turbo have some brake pump/booster thing, which may complicate things?

The things that cost are non-normal stuff.

Two areas of rust on the 993 to worry about - front scuttle under the windscreen corners (and rear screen) , and rear chassis legs, which has been overblown in my opinion - anyone can fix that, as it is hidden away. The scuttle can end up being expensive. If you can see a 5p sized scab appearing out from under the screen rubber, it'll be big rust underneath. Probably.

Suspension.

I should put this in a spreadsheet, along with the other stuff I've forgotten.

List of other things but not expensive, or at least they shouldn't be.

Caliper plate lift - but just take the calipers off and get them refurbished if the pads start to jam on slightly.

There are probably three belts on your 993, and Porsche helpfully made about 50 different sizes. It's important to get the correct size on. There are mad little shims, and you need a tool to dismantle the crazy set of wheels that hang off the back of the engine it's an easy job that you might want to give to someone who's done it before. Don't even start me on the crazy wheeled-sensor that monitors one of the belts....

Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 30th October 18:00

[ketan.jina]

Orangecurry said:

Nothing to be scared about on a 993 - it's a Meccano set.

Schedule is:
Every 12k
Oil change (easy - you don't need to do the filters)
Air filter (easy)
Pollen filters? (easy)

Every 24k
2xoil filters change (easy once you are used to it)
Spark plugs. (from memory 1 is difficult, because of access, 5 remaining upper plugs are quite difficult, but only because you have to move stuff out of the way and need slightly convoluted joints on the socket set, and the lower six are easy)

Capacity is 11.5? litres of oil - a proper dry-sump setup. On a change, I get 9.5 out, as there are 2 litres in the front radiator and the pipes that run to it along the driver's side.
I use Mahle filters and Mobil Super 2000 10w40 which is an SL specification - it's counter intuitive but you actually want older oil specification for older engines.

Gearbox oil every 60k? Awkward, but not difficult.

Brakes are easy, and you can get OEM Sebro discs from ECP that arrive in Porsche-numbered boxes. Get Textar pads.

Bleeding the clutch slave cylinder is awkward, and should be done when you bleed the brakes. All easy on a C2. I think the C4 and Turbo have some brake pump/booster thing, which may complicate things?

The things that cost are non-normal stuff.

Two areas of rust on the 993 to worry about - front scuttle under the windscreen corners (and rear screen) , and rear chassis legs, which has been overblown in my opinion - anyone can fix that, as it is hidden away. The scuttle can end up being expensive. If you can see a 5p sized scab appearing out from under the screen rubber, it'll be big rust underneath. Probably.

Suspension.

I should put this in a spreadsheet, along with the other stuff I've forgotten.

List of other things but not expensive, or at least they shouldn't be.

Caliper plate lift - but just take the calipers off and get them refurbished if the pads start to jam on slightly.

There are probably three belts on your 993, and Porsche helpfully made about 50 different sizes. It's important to get the correct size on. There are mad little shims, and you need a tool to dismantle the crazy set of wheels that hang off the back of the engine it's an easy job that you might want to give to someone who's done it before. Don't even start me on the crazy wheeled-sensor that monitors one of the belts....

Edited by Orangecurry on Friday 30th October 18:00

This is really cool! For all the 'easy jobs wouldn't it be great if there were vids that explained how to do each. When I looked I only saw oil change vids and one from wheeler dealers where they do up a knackered 993 (yes I like watching stuff like that!)

OrangeCurry - fancy setting up a YouTube channel? Might make some money gives the home mechanic some confidence that its being done correctly. I've never changed pads or even engine oil before

[ClaphamGT3]

Brave Fart said:

I rocketship pace you'll be disappointed. They're not slow, but some people think "ooh, a 911, it'll be supercar quick". They're not, but again that's part of the charm. They certainly have enough pace for today's public roads.

This is the sort of bloke down the pub bks that I really hate about PH.

OP, don't listen to this sort of uninformed drivel. They are a small, light car with a minimum of 270bhp. The slowest manual version will, in basic stats do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 168mph. They are, by any standards still a very quick car.

I loved mine and wish I'd never sold it.

[Fat hippo]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Brave Fart said:

I rocketship pace you'll be disappointed. They're not slow, but some people think "ooh, a 911, it'll be supercar quick". They're not, but again that's part of the charm. They certainly have enough pace for today's public roads.

This is the sort of bloke down the pub bks that I really hate about PH.

OP, don't listen to this sort of uninformed drivel. They are a small, light car with a minimum of 270bhp. The slowest manual version will, in basic stats do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 168mph. They are, by any standards still a very quick car.

I loved mine and wish I'd never sold it.

How did it compare to your GT3? I’ve always wanted a GT3 but don’t think I could get rid of my 993.

[ClaphamGT3]

Fat hippo said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Brave Fart said:

I rocketship pace you'll be disappointed. They're not slow, but some people think "ooh, a 911, it'll be supercar quick". They're not, but again that's part of the charm. They certainly have enough pace for today's public roads.

This is the sort of bloke down the pub bks that I really hate about PH.

OP, don't listen to this sort of uninformed drivel. They are a small, light car with a minimum of 270bhp. The slowest manual version will, in basic stats do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 168mph. They are, by any standards still a very quick car.

I loved mine and wish I'd never sold it.

How did it compare to your GT3? I’ve always wanted a GT3 but don’t think I could get rid of my 993.

Great though the GT3 is, I preferred the 993

[Nurburgsingh]

I’ve tried not to go stir crazy during lockdown by keeping up with the odd dawn raid and a socially distanced coffee with friends.

I’ve got to choose between these..




The RS has been out once, the GTS twice and the 993 gets taken every other time.
Yes the other 2 are, on paper, better in every way that matters to 90% of the people.
But in the same way that an MX5 or low powered 7 get people excited the 993 is enjoyable at every level on every road, it’s small so single track roads aren’t the scary place the other two make them. It’s suspension is compliant, so an uneven road isn’t the bone jarring experience the RS is. It’s just being able to explore more of the cars envelope more of the time.

I had to look back and check - I’ve owned my 993C2 for 9 years. I nearly sold it after 3 months because I couldn’t “get on with it”. I spoke to some well regarded 911 drivers and got some instruction and I haven’t looked back. I’m just annoyed I didn’t buy one sooner.

[ketan.jina]

Nurburgsingh said:

I’ve tried not to go stir crazy during lockdown by keeping up with the odd dawn raid and a socially distanced coffee with friends.

I’ve got to choose between these..




The RS has been out once, the GTS twice and the 993 gets taken every other time.
Yes the other 2 are, on paper, better in every way that matters to 90% of the people.
But in the same way that an MX5 or low powered 7 get people excited the 993 is enjoyable at every level on every road, it’s small so single track roads aren’t the scary place the other two make them. It’s suspension is compliant, so an uneven road isn’t the bone jarring experience the RS is. It’s just being able to explore more of the cars envelope more of the time.

I had to look back and check - I’ve owned my 993C2 for 9 years. I nearly sold it after 3 months because I couldn’t “get on with it”. I spoke to some well regarded 911 drivers and got some instruction and I haven’t looked back. I’m just annoyed I didn’t buy one sooner.

Good selection of cars! And love the dog too would be interested to know what instruction you had that made the difference?

[n12maser]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Brave Fart said:

I rocketship pace you'll be disappointed. They're not slow, but some people think "ooh, a 911, it'll be supercar quick". They're not, but again that's part of the charm. They certainly have enough pace for today's public roads.

This is the sort of bloke down the pub bks that I really hate about PH.



OP, don't listen to this sort of uninformed drivel. They are a small, light car with a minimum of 270bhp. The slowest manual version will, in basic stats do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 168mph. They are, by any standards still a very quick car.

I loved mine and wish I'd never sold it.

Car & Driver managed to get 4.7 0-60mph on a '95 993 Carrera. As you say though, that's not what it's about. I love mine - the smell, the sound, the gearing (non-varioram), the build quality, the shape, the bobbing, the ability to steer on the throttle, the lack of nannies, the small footprint just perfect for our roads.

[ketan.jina]

ClaphamGT3 said:

This is the sort of bloke down the pub bks that I really hate about PH.

OP, don't listen to this sort of uninformed drivel. They are a small, light car with a minimum of 270bhp. The slowest manual version will, in basic stats do 0-60 in 5.5 seconds and 168mph. They are, by any standards still a very quick car.

I loved mine and wish I'd never sold it.

I'm well beyond that to be honest. If I wanted a car that was supper quick, I'd buy a newer sports car. I'm looking for more than that really. I have a audi q5 with 250 hourses, and that's quick enough for me

[Nurburgsingh]

ketan.jina said:

Good selection of cars! And love the dog too would be interested to know what instruction you had that made the difference?

My driver training was mixed non and professional - I’m fortunate to have friends that have raced 911’s so they were the starting point. My issue was that I was trying to drive it live I drove my 944/68’s and that just doesn’t work.
Moving on from that , I spent some time initially with Don Palmer, and then did a lot of time with one of the ex Police trainers - Andy Morrison.

I had planned to do some more training with Andy Walsh at Carlimits but Covid put the kybosh on that so that’s next years job.

There is a different dynamic to a 911 and the way that the weight needs to be managed was very different coming from the transaxle cars, you can’t just lob it into a corner and come out of the other end, that approach just leads to terminal understeer and ultimately the frustration that nearly led me to selling it. It’s all about making the front end work, once you’ve got that the rear will follow.

They are very tyre and geo sensitive and you need someone that understands how to properly set up the rear suspension to avoid horrible handling even though everything is “in the green”

I’m currently running Pilot4’s and I preferred the way it drove on Veedestein Sessantas. But I couldn’t get one of the sizes last time I changed.
I also have a 2nd set of wheels and run pilot cup2’s for the summer - WOW now that’s how you make a 993 come alive !!!

[Orangecurry]

ketan.jina said:

This is really cool! For all the 'easy jobs wouldn't it be great if there were vids that explained how to do each. When I looked I only saw oil change vids and one from wheeler dealers where they do up a knackered 993 (yes I like watching stuff like that!)

OrangeCurry - fancy setting up a YouTube channel? Might make some money gives the home mechanic some confidence that its being done correctly. I've never changed pads or even engine oil before

You don't need videos to do car mechanics - as you say you need confidence, or experience. On any car, I'd start with air filter/pollen filter as the downside to not getting it correct is low. Find a friend who has done at least basics, and ask her to help.

I'm not being mean (to mechanics), but car mechanics, especially on a 993, is not rocket science. Anyone can do it - really.

Also a video wouldn't help with spark plugs or bleeding the clutch-slave... it's mostly done by feel. And to take an example, photos are good enough to allow you to take-off all of the bits on the engine that are in your way to then have access to change the spark-plugs. Then it's simply down to having the correct socket bits, some duct-tape to hold those bits together, and time.

That reminds me of another job - cam-covers. There are four on the engine, and they leak oil onto the heat exchangers (highly polished things just at the base of the photo). Here I am about to take this lower weeping one off, and you can see the easy access for these three spark-plugs...

Does this help?



...and cover off... you can now (almost) see three of the hydraulic tappets that will need changing one day. So that's three jobs at the same time!


Why bother at all? It's worth doing for two reasons - you know the job has been done properly, and because of that it's immensely satisfying. There is folk-lore that the 12th spark-plug, behind the PAS pump, never even got changed at the Porsche Main Dealers back in the day, because it takes too long and the OPC mechanics were not given enough time.
The flip-side is that you car will be 'devalued' as it hasn't been to a recognised expert for this work. If this concerns you, you could do most of the work yourself, but get an Indy to do the oil-change and inspection every year?

I used to have a website with loads of photos on the above work, and much more, but it lapsed. And anyway, Richard's work (Jackal) is more comprehensive than mine, as he wanted to modify the car as well. His resource is the best self-contained that I've seen. Anything else you can find on Rennlist, but be aware that the american engines are slightly different from ROW cars.

Jackal's gem
http://www.jackals-forge.com/lotus/993/993_diary_2...

Edited by Orangecurry on Saturday 31st October 17:42

[Orangecurry]

Nurburgsingh said:

I’ve tried not to go stir crazy during lockdown by keeping up with the odd dawn raid and a socially distanced coffee with friends.

I’ve got to choose between these..

You have three dogs as well?

[stichill99]

I have been devaluing my car for the last 7 years. The boxster I had had just been serviced at OPC so that would be why it had a destroyed sump plug then!

[2.4te]

Not wishing to derail this thread, but here's my 1972 911, owned 22 years.

After 16 years, finally getting round to rebuilding the original engine (on mechanical fuel injection) and intend to give it a little more ooomph. It has a replacement engine in at present that I will then need to find a role for!

Beginning tear down:


Making progress:

[stichill99]

I had chocks in on the other side so car would not roll off my proffesional lifting system. This was annual oil change{both filters mahle }. I think the total cost of all filters pollen,fuel,2 oil filters and 10 litres of 15w40 was around £60.

[Orangecurry]

n12maser said:

I love mine - the smell, the sound, the gearing (non-varioram), the build quality, the shape, the bobbing, the ability to steer on the throttle, the lack of nannies, the small footprint just perfect for our roads.

Just a purchasing-note to the OP - the early ROW 993 got the on-paper-272 BHP non-varioram engine, and the C2 had the 'low ratio' G50-21 gearbox.

Everyone prefers this gearbox. Probably.

Sometime after the end of the MY95 build (the MY change happened after the two-week holiday that the factory always had - september?) Porsche introduced the on-paper-285 BHP varioram engine for MY96 onwards. They kept the G50-21 gearbox until nearly the end of MY96, when it was replaced by the 'lazier', longer-geared and therefore lower-emissions G50-20.

Confused?

94-95 non-vario + G50-21
96 vario + G50-21
97 onwards vario + G50-20

NB the C4 had the G64-21 followed by the G64-20, same reasons as above.

When you look at any car for purchase, have a look at the underbonnet sticker. It lists the gearbox type.

Some people might say the MY96 is the ideal 993.

But as always, the advice is to buy on condition.

[Orangecurry]

2.4te said:

Not wishing to derail this thread, but here's my 1972 911, owned 22 years.

After 16 years, finally getting round to rebuilding the original engine (on mechanical fuel injection) and intend to give it a little more ooomph. It has a replacement engine in at present that I will then need to find a role for!

No derailment.

are you doing the work yourself?