458 values now that the 488GTB is here - only way is down!?
Discussion
TP321 said:
McLaren will have to come in with a 700bhp car to cause any damage to this 488. I think it will rule the waves far more emphatically than the 458, now that it is not at a power disadvantage to the 650s.
Ok it now can match the 650S but it will still come down to supply and demand. Can see it being a good seller and that will mean even more cars which means ........The 2 cars will be intrinsically linked. The 488 may command a £30k premium but once that equation changes so will demand potentially.
As a Ferrari diehard I think losing the N/a V8 has meant the car has also lost some of its magic even if it does look better and goes faster than a 458 IMHO. I think whilst the 458 couldn't compete with 12C in performance terms it always had the better feel and sound and was more rewarding to drive.
McLaren have addressed this massively with the 650S so I think the differential between Ferrari and McLaren has now actually narrowed with the introduction of the 488.
Completely opposite to you I see more people like myself defecting to McLaren if its a turbo charged car they are after or Lambo if they want N/a.
For me having a rattle/scuttle shake free, rock solid spider through having a lightweight carbon tub is a major plus factor for the 650S spider that the 488 still doesn't address. Ok less of an issue with the coupe but for a spider this is a big consideration. No amount of strengthening in the 488 spider will approach the rigidity of the carbon tub and all it does it add unwanted weight. This chassis does not lend itself to having the roof chopped off unlike the McLaren
Fair enough if you want a coupe have the 488, but want a spider and the McLaren comes into its own
Edited by GRBF430F1 on Thursday 5th February 22:23
GRBF430F1 said:
Ok it now can match the 650S but it will still come down to supply and demand. Can see it being a good seller and that will mean even more cars which means ........
The 2 cars will be intrinsically linked. The 488 may command a £30k premium but once that equation changes so will demand potentially.
As a Ferrari diehard I think losing the N/a V8 has meant the car has also lost some of its magic even if it does look better and goes faster than a 458 IMHO. I think whilst the 458 couldn't compete with 12C in performance terms it always had the better feel and sound and was more rewarding to drive.
McLaren have addressed this massively with the 650S so I think the differential between Ferrari and McLaren has now actually narrowed with the introduction of the 488.
Completely opposite to you I see more people like myself defecting to McLaren if its a turbo charged car they are after or Lambo if they want N/a.
For me having a rattle/scuttle shake free, rock solid spider through having a lightweight carbon tub is a major plus factor for the 650S spider that the 488 still doesn't address. Ok less of an issue with the coupe but for a spider this is a big consideration. No amount of strengthening in the 488 spider will approach the rigidity of the carbon tub and all it does it add unwanted weight. This chassis does not lend itself to having the roof chopped off unlike the McLaren
Fair enough if you want a coupe have the 488, but want a spider and the McLaren comes into its own
Its far more simpler than that. The reason why the 458 has been more successful than the 12C/650s (see what i did there...) is down to 2 factors: Prestige and Looks. In all other areas, apart from sound and throttle response, the 12C/650S is the better car. But the 458 has won every roadtest, even the Spyder tests, purely on the basis of "how it makes you feel". These are road cars, that will be driven a few thousand miles every year, by middle aged men. Above else, they need to look the best thing on the road. Why is the Aventador so successful?? The 2 cars will be intrinsically linked. The 488 may command a £30k premium but once that equation changes so will demand potentially.
As a Ferrari diehard I think losing the N/a V8 has meant the car has also lost some of its magic even if it does look better and goes faster than a 458 IMHO. I think whilst the 458 couldn't compete with 12C in performance terms it always had the better feel and sound and was more rewarding to drive.
McLaren have addressed this massively with the 650S so I think the differential between Ferrari and McLaren has now actually narrowed with the introduction of the 488.
Completely opposite to you I see more people like myself defecting to McLaren if its a turbo charged car they are after or Lambo if they want N/a.
For me having a rattle/scuttle shake free, rock solid spider through having a lightweight carbon tub is a major plus factor for the 650S spider that the 488 still doesn't address. Ok less of an issue with the coupe but for a spider this is a big consideration. No amount of strengthening in the 488 spider will approach the rigidity of the carbon tub and all it does it add unwanted weight. This chassis does not lend itself to having the roof chopped off unlike the McLaren
Fair enough if you want a coupe have the 488, but want a spider and the McLaren comes into its own
Edited by GRBF430F1 on Thursday 5th February 22:23
So the 650s/675LT will not trouble the 488, actually the win for the 488 will be more emphatic this time round. The design of the 12C was 8/10ths, and the 650s was a compromise of the 12C and therefore worse as a result. To take on the 488 and win, Mclaren needs a new car that is above else, drop dead gorgeous, and they need to ditch the minimalistic design approach and put some real flare into it.
I hope that McLaren do well. I think it's great that a British car manufacturer is on the map. Are they up there with Ferrari, Lamborghini etc? I'm not so sure, but let's hope they can transition that last 10% or so, as I think that we are all winners as car buyers.
Will the 650/675/next update outsell the 388 GTB? I doubt it, but for subjective reasons as opposed to any hard and fast rules.
We should all be happy that these cars are still being produced, so that we can buy them........and not obsess about future values......
A
Will the 650/675/next update outsell the 388 GTB? I doubt it, but for subjective reasons as opposed to any hard and fast rules.
We should all be happy that these cars are still being produced, so that we can buy them........and not obsess about future values......
A
boxerTen said:
It would be nice to think this sort of sentiment was common but I suspect as long as it looks good (it does IMO), and has a power output beginning with a '6', that will be quite sufficient for a good proportion of buyers.
I agree. Imo most ferrari buyers who go for the latest and greatest tend to be more fashion conscious than bothered about things that "drivers" worry about. That said if they can get the engine mapping right and do away with the lag it should be a great car.TP321 said:
Its far more simpler than that. The reason why the 458 has been more successful than the 12C/650s (see what i did there...) is down to 2 factors: Prestige and Looks. In all other areas, apart from sound and throttle response, the 12C/650S is the better car. But the 458 has won every roadtest, even the Spyder tests, purely on the basis of "how it makes you feel". These are road cars, that will be driven a few thousand miles every year, by middle aged men. Above else, they need to look the best thing on the road. Why is the Aventador so successful??
So the 650s/675LT will not trouble the 488, actually the win for the 488 will be more emphatic this time round. The design of the 12C was 8/10ths, and the 650s was a compromise of the 12C and therefore worse as a result. To take on the 488 and win, Mclaren needs a new car that is above else, drop dead gorgeous, and they need to ditch the minimalistic design approach and put some real flare into it.
+1So the 650s/675LT will not trouble the 488, actually the win for the 488 will be more emphatic this time round. The design of the 12C was 8/10ths, and the 650s was a compromise of the 12C and therefore worse as a result. To take on the 488 and win, Mclaren needs a new car that is above else, drop dead gorgeous, and they need to ditch the minimalistic design approach and put some real flare into it.
TP321 said:
Its far more simpler than that. The reason why the 458 has been more successful than the 12C/650s (see what i did there...) is down to 2 factors: Prestige and Looks. In all other areas, apart from sound and throttle response, the 12C/650S is the better car. But the 458 has won every roadtest, even the Spyder tests, purely on the basis of "how it makes you feel". These are road cars, that will be driven a few thousand miles every year, by middle aged men. Above else, they need to look the best thing on the road. Why is the Aventador so successful??
Not in every case though. I'm a middle aged man and I loved owning a Ferrari but not for prestige or looks, because it was a brilliant car, I certainly don't care about looking like the best thing on the road, I care about driving the best thing on the road. I buy on how the car is rather than what other people think of it. Don't misunderstand me TP, I think you're largely right sadly, bragging rights on owning a Ferrari seem to trump the reality of how good the car actually drives.
TP321 said:
Its far more simpler than that. The reason why the 458 has been more successful than the 12C/650s (see what i did there...) is down to 2 factors: Prestige and Looks. In all other areas, apart from sound and throttle response, the 12C/650S is the better car. But the 458 has won every roadtest, even the Spyder tests, purely on the basis of "how it makes you feel". These are road cars, that will be driven a few thousand miles every year, by middle aged men. Above else, they need to look the best thing on the road. Why is the Aventador so successful??
So the 650s/675LT will not trouble the 488, actually the win for the 488 will be more emphatic this time round. The design of the 12C was 8/10ths, and the 650s was a compromise of the 12C and therefore worse as a result. To take on the 488 and win, Mclaren needs a new car that is above else, drop dead gorgeous, and they need to ditch the minimalistic design approach and put some real flare into it.
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.So the 650s/675LT will not trouble the 488, actually the win for the 488 will be more emphatic this time round. The design of the 12C was 8/10ths, and the 650s was a compromise of the 12C and therefore worse as a result. To take on the 488 and win, Mclaren needs a new car that is above else, drop dead gorgeous, and they need to ditch the minimalistic design approach and put some real flare into it.
Go drive one young man and then you maybe able to comment. If you have driven a 650S you will know how good a car it is and not have to guess like you are already doing with the 488GTB. Shock horror - Ferrari launches a new model and finally catches McLaren up at long last. 458 with a few air intakes and a blown engine - sorry the magic has gone for me
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
GRBF430F1 said:
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Edited by TP321 on Friday 6th February 19:37
TP321 said:
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals.
You miss the point. The Ferrari image / brand / prestige thing is a double edged sword. For some people ( you included ) the Ferrari prestige trumps everything. For others ( including me ) the Ferrari image in the modern cars is actually a bit of a problem.McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals.
I love older Ferrari but the new ones are rather vulgar and I really dislike the BS that goes with them.
For reasons I can't quite explain, the only donkey I really like is the FF. The others like the 458 shout and overact , poncing around like an Italian premiership footballer with a hair band and a stupid diva-like ego.
I accept this is a minority opinion. I guess that's why I prefer Mclaren 650 over a 458. But I'd take a FF over both.
TP321 said:
The DESIGN of the 650S is the compromise - not the car.
McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
I think McLaren learnt from the mistakes of the early MP4 12C, corrected it with the 12C and then improved it leaps and bounds and came up with the perfect package with the 650S ( looks, performance and feel )McLaren does not have the prestige of Ferrari. Only F1 fans know what a McLaren is (same problem Lotus has). Ferrari is an iconic brand - like Apple. You might design a better smartphone, but you cant touch it for desirability or residuals. Proof of the pudding:
Show me a RHD 2011 458, with 12k miles that is as cheap as this: http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/m...
Edited by TP321 on Friday 6th February 19:37
Its so refreshing to have a rock solid spider with no scuttle shake which you can only achieve with a carbon tub
Like I say if I was after a coupe I would be tempted by a 488GTB as Im sure its a great car but as soon as you are talking about a spider there is only 1 car to have
Ok I agree with you in that you pay through the nose for the Ferrari badge because of the heritage. Don't get me wrong as I am a diehard Ferrari fan and own 2 but as someone else has pointed out above I buy the best car of the time irrespective of badge. I've gone past the point of worrying what others think.
As an unbiased opinion personally I think McLaren's whether 12C or 650S are a far superior product and hey its great that they are also miles better value for money.
With some brands you just pay over the odds for a inferior product purely because of the name
I also prefer the exclusivity and the fact that most people just go "wow, that's amazing, what is it and did you win the euro millions ?" rather than "look at that flash geezer in the red Ferrari", followed by some less than complimentary expletives usually
Don't be a sheep and believe all the "marketing" buy the best car for you and not to please everyone else
GRBF430F1 said:
I think McLaren learnt from the mistakes of the early MP4 12C, corrected it with the 12C and then improved it leaps and bounds and came up with the perfect package with the 650S ( looks, performance and feel )
Its so refreshing to have a rock solid spider with no scuttle shake which you can only achieve with a carbon tub
Like I say if I was after a coupe I would be tempted by a 488GTB as Im sure its a great car but as soon as you are talking about a spider there is only 1 car to have
Ok I agree with you in that you pay through the nose for the Ferrari badge because of the heritage. Don't get me wrong as I am a diehard Ferrari fan and own 2 but as someone else has pointed out above I buy the best car of the time irrespective of badge. I've gone past the point of worrying what others think.
As an unbiased opinion personally I think McLaren's whether 12C or 650S are a far superior product and hey its great that they are also miles better value for money.
With some brands you just pay over the odds for a inferior product purely because of the name
I also prefer the exclusivity and the fact that most people just go "wow, that's amazing, what is it and did you win the euro millions ?" rather than "look at that flash geezer in the red Ferrari", followed by some less than complimentary expletives usually
Don't be a sheep and believe all the "marketing" buy the best car for you and not to please everyone else
Ok, ok...just don't start complaining when that 650S is worth £120k in 2 years time...Its so refreshing to have a rock solid spider with no scuttle shake which you can only achieve with a carbon tub
Like I say if I was after a coupe I would be tempted by a 488GTB as Im sure its a great car but as soon as you are talking about a spider there is only 1 car to have
Ok I agree with you in that you pay through the nose for the Ferrari badge because of the heritage. Don't get me wrong as I am a diehard Ferrari fan and own 2 but as someone else has pointed out above I buy the best car of the time irrespective of badge. I've gone past the point of worrying what others think.
As an unbiased opinion personally I think McLaren's whether 12C or 650S are a far superior product and hey its great that they are also miles better value for money.
With some brands you just pay over the odds for a inferior product purely because of the name
I also prefer the exclusivity and the fact that most people just go "wow, that's amazing, what is it and did you win the euro millions ?" rather than "look at that flash geezer in the red Ferrari", followed by some less than complimentary expletives usually
Don't be a sheep and believe all the "marketing" buy the best car for you and not to please everyone else
TP321 said:
Ok, ok...just don't start complaining when that 650S is worth £120k in 2 years time...
It won't be but it really doesn't matter what its worth TBH, I've already decided this is a keeper along with the F355 GTS manual. Others will go first if I want to update the stable in a couple of years time ( probably as they will be worth more as well )
GRBF430F1 said:
I also prefer the exclusivity and the fact that most people just go "wow, that's amazing, what is it and did you win the euro millions ?" rather than "look at that flash geezer in the red Ferrari", followed by some less than complimentary expletives usually
Don't be a sheep and believe all the "marketing" buy the best car for you and not to please everyone else
If one buys the best car for oneself then surely whether its exclusive (do lots of others own a similar vehicle) and what observers might infer about you are irrelevant?Don't be a sheep and believe all the "marketing" buy the best car for you and not to please everyone else
GRBF430F1 said:
Your argument loses ALL credibility when you suggest the 650S is a compromise and worse than a 12C.
Go drive one young man and then you maybe able to comment. If you have driven a 650S you will know how good a car it is and not have to guess like you are already doing with the 488GTB. Shock horror - Ferrari launches a new model and finally catches McLaren up at long last. 458 with a few air intakes and a blown engine - sorry the magic has gone for me
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
Mate, seriously, get a grip on realtiy. Ferrari "catch up with McL"? I'm no Ferrari fan per se, in fact their shenanigans over who gets what model of new car almost completely turned me off them, but really, what you said there...really? I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjectiveGo drive one young man and then you maybe able to comment. If you have driven a 650S you will know how good a car it is and not have to guess like you are already doing with the 488GTB. Shock horror - Ferrari launches a new model and finally catches McLaren up at long last. 458 with a few air intakes and a blown engine - sorry the magic has gone for me
As regards looks and prestige the 650S also mullers the 458 IMHO. Far better looks and not as common as mcuk
AndrewD said:
I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjective
you need our second favourite thread 
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... sales figures
AndrewD said:
Mate, seriously, get a grip on realtiy. Ferrari "catch up with McL"? I'm no Ferrari fan per se, in fact their shenanigans over who gets what model of new car almost completely turned me off them, but really, what you said there...really? I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjective
The Ford Fiesta has outsold the 458 so by your logic does that make it a better car ?????? The objective facts are there for all to see - 458 was not even close to MP4 12C performance figures and now the new 488 is on a par with McLaren 650S, so yes Ferrari have caught up objectively with their all new model to be launched. Everything else is subjective
Seriously, get a grip man
Cheib said:
GRBF430F1 said:
488 spider that will be full list £280k for some time
I have nothing to say except....f
k me that's expensive! 599 GTO's were about that weren't they? I know that is not exactly a valid comparison but one was a limited edition model and only the third to wear the GTO badge and the other is Ferrari's volume model.
GRBF430F1 said:
AndrewD said:
Mate, seriously, get a grip on realtiy. Ferrari "catch up with McL"? I'm no Ferrari fan per se, in fact their shenanigans over who gets what model of new car almost completely turned me off them, but really, what you said there...really? I am not sure by what multiple the 458 has outsold the 12c/650 combined, but I'll wager it is quite a high number. The numbers don't lie, everything else is subjective
The Ford Fiesta has outsold the 458 so by your logic does that make it a better car ?????? The objective facts are there for all to see - 458 was not even close to MP4 12C performance figures and now the new 488 is on a par with McLaren 650S, so yes Ferrari have caught up objectively with their all new model to be launched. Everything else is subjective
Seriously, get a grip man
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