458 Speciale not so special?.

[Rocco1]

KenC said:

Member since yesterday! Trolling post - move on.

Greenbandit is not a troll
Ive seen his collection of cars these are what he has owned ,i would think he is in a good position to voice his opinion
2x Scuds
360 CS
458
458 Spider
12C Spider
Huracan
Aventador
And now owns Tims old 650S
To call him a troll is unfair,he knows his onions and knows his way around a car and not too bad behind the steering wheel :-)

[flemke]

boxerTen said:

Has the Speciale any failings? Yes, the gear ratios are too short at the bottom and too far apart at the top. I understand this is a constraint imposed by the Getrag 7DCL750 gearbox they use.

Surely it is physically possible for the car to have a gearbox with appropriate ratios?

[_Superleggera_]

flemke said:

Surely it is physically possible for the car to have a gearbox with appropriate ratios?

Tesla. Simples.

[boxerTen]

flemke said:

boxerTen said:

Has the Speciale any failings? Yes, the gear ratios are too short at the bottom and too far apart at the top. I understand this is a constraint imposed by the Getrag 7DCL750 gearbox they use.

Surely it is physically possible for the car to have a gearbox with appropriate ratios?

One would think so. I've tried to find schematics of the gearbox to understand why the constraint exists without success. The blurb on Getrag's website says the ratio between 1st ratio and 7th ratio can't be less than 4.3, whereas the Speciale would be better served if that ratio was around 3.0-3.5.

Edited by boxerTen on Saturday 19th September 10:19

[KenC]

Rocco1 said:

KenC said:

Member since yesterday! Trolling post - move on.

Greenbandit is not a troll
Ive seen his collection of cars these are what he has owned ,i would think he is in a good position to voice his opinion
2x Scuds
360 CS
458
458 Spider
12C Spider
Huracan
Aventador
And now owns Tims old 650S
To call him a troll is unfair,he knows his onions and knows his way around a car and not too bad behind the steering wheel :-)

In which case I stand corrected and apologise. It was his opening line of: "I have sat on the sideline for sometime now" which is inconsistent with joining the day before that led to my comment.

[flemke]

boxerTen said:

flemke said:

boxerTen said:

Has the Speciale any failings? Yes, the gear ratios are too short at the bottom and too far apart at the top. I understand this is a constraint imposed by the Getrag 7DCL750 gearbox they use.

Surely it is physically possible for the car to have a gearbox with appropriate ratios?

One would think so. I've tried to find schematics of the gearbox to understand why the constraint exists without success. The blurb on Getrag's website says the ratio between 1st ratio and 7th ratio can't be less than 4.3, whereas the Speciale would be better served if that ratio was around 3.0-3.5.

Getrag's explanation may be true owing to the dimensions of the casing, for example. Regardless of the cause, the obvious solution would have been for Ferrari to have had Getrag make up a different 'box.

Btw there is an interesting old piece by Chris Harris on PH about this 'box, which was used not only by Fezza in the 458 and Cal. but also by Merc in the SLS. Chris contrasts the very different approaches by the two car makers to making use of the same 'box.

[boxerTen]

flemke said:

boxerTen said:

One would think so. I've tried to find schematics of the gearbox to understand why the constraint exists without success. The blurb on Getrag's website says the ratio between 1st ratio and 7th ratio can't be less than 4.3, whereas the Speciale would be better served if that ratio was around 3.0-3.5.

Getrag's explanation may be true owing to the dimensions of the casing, for example. Regardless of the cause, the obvious solution would have been for Ferrari to have had Getrag make up a different 'box.

Indeed. I suspect the box has been designed primarily for heavy saloons where perhaps the top two gears are so long one can't reach max revs, while the first gear is short enough to crawl around at walking speed. I guess the market for close ratio sports boxes is quite small.

[flemke]

boxerTen said:

flemke said:

boxerTen said:

One would think so. I've tried to find schematics of the gearbox to understand why the constraint exists without success. The blurb on Getrag's website says the ratio between 1st ratio and 7th ratio can't be less than 4.3, whereas the Speciale would be better served if that ratio was around 3.0-3.5.

Getrag's explanation may be true owing to the dimensions of the casing, for example. Regardless of the cause, the obvious solution would have been for Ferrari to have had Getrag make up a different 'box.

Indeed. I suspect the box has been designed primarily for heavy saloons where perhaps the top two gears are so long one can't reach max revs, while the first gear is short enough to crawl around at walking speed. I guess the market for close ratio sports boxes is quite small.

True, but Ferrari are so full of self-praise that they ought to have put their hands in their pockets and paid Getrag to do whatever it took to deliver the right gearbox for the job.

[mrh1]

have to say the leaving the speciale for dust part is wrong,out of a bend on track the speciale just about pulls away from the 650s down a straight and this is true from me driving the red one and iam not the best driver in the world,yes maybe on paper or proper timed launch starts but not in the real world,thats the trouble with all these stats,and another thing as i say iam no expert by a mile its great fun getting the red one sideways,sideways happy you might say,if i did that in a 650s i will be in trouble.having said that wouldnt mind both the 650s got a better radio


I have sat on the sideline for sometime now reading all the posts regarding the 650S. Firstly I would like to point out what I have gained from doing so, its all money related from you guys that own a Speciale, everything you discuss is all relating to the values of your precious car. I thought you bought a supercar to drive it? You bang on about the 650S and how much it has lost, so show me a 650S that has lost the figures you are quoting? If you look on Autotrader at the cheapest 650S you will find that's it is for sale at £190000.00, the car only cost £220000.00 new so where do you get your ridiculous figures from. So, based on that figure the car has lost 30k, now go and take a look how much you can buy a Ferrari 458 spider for of the same age and mileage. All you throw back at anyone that brings up the Mclaren is the residual values, surely you can do better than that, like, let's discuss the performance figures?, no you don't want to because the 650S leaves the Speciale for dust. No you dont want to discuss anything other than "oh my car has gone up by 60k you know", what's that you say, " why dont you drive it", " dont be so silly, i cant drive it as it the most mileage affected car you can buy". You don't buy them to drive, you buy them for the bragging power, if you want your £225000.00 to increase go and buy a painting that you can keep in the house. I look forward to your response.

[s2000db]

Yes, you'd think that if a Speciale was special, it could beat a TurboS around Anglesey...
Can a 650S?

[Russell996]

greenbandit641 said:

I have sat on the sideline for sometime now reading all the posts regarding the 650S. Firstly I would like to point out what I have gained from doing so, its all money related from you guys that own a Speciale, everything you discuss is all relating to the values of your precious car. I thought you bought a supercar to drive it? You bang on about the 650S and how much it has lost, so show me a 650S that has lost the figures you are quoting? If you look on Autotrader at the cheapest 650S you will find that's it is for sale at £190000.00, the car only cost £220000.00 new so where do you get your ridiculous figures from. So, based on that figure the car has lost 30k, now go and take a look how much you can buy a Ferrari 458 spider for of the same age and mileage. All you throw back at anyone that brings up the Mclaren is the residual values, surely you can do better than that, like, let's discuss the performance figures?, no you don't want to because the 650S leaves the Speciale for dust. No you dont want to discuss anything other than "oh my car has gone up by 60k you know", what's that you say, " why dont you drive it", " dont be so silly, i cant drive it as it the most mileage affected car you can buy". You don't buy them to drive, you buy them for the bragging power, if you want your £225000.00 to increase go and buy a painting that you can keep in the house. I look forward to your response.

This thread is about the Speciale not the 650s but in answer to your question yes owning a Supercar is clearly all about the drive, we all know that. But unfortunately for many of us we also need to consider the monetary aspects of Supercar ownership and can't divorce this aspect of the equation from the process, I know I wish I could! You have a wonderful 650s and have bought well but you can't deny the previous owner lost £50k in 7 months and that was on an already discounted lightly used car.

[RamboLambo]

Russell996 said:

This thread is about the Speciale not the 650s but in answer to your question yes owning a Supercar is clearly all about the drive, we all know that. But unfortunately for many of us we also need to consider the monetary aspects of Supercar ownership and can't divorce this aspect of the equation from the process, I know I wish I could! You have a wonderful 650s and have bought well but you can't deny the previous owner lost £50k in 7 months and that was on an already discounted lightly used car.

I doubt Shmee lost £50k unless he paid full list price/asking price on an ex demo and he also did 12k, highly advertised, hooning miles in it.

Agree at £180k its a good buy for the new owner though

[boxerTen]

s2000db said:

Yes, you'd think that if a Speciale was special, it could beat a TurboS around Anglesey...
Can a 650S?

The Anglesea coastal circuit is quite a tight one, so has the 650S got 4WD? No? There's your answer

[greenbandit641]

Russell996 said:

This thread is about the Speciale not the 650s but in answer to your question yes owning a Supercar is clearly all about the drive, we all know that. But unfortunately for many of us we also need to consider the monetary aspects of Supercar ownership and can't divorce this aspect of the equation from the process, I know I wish I could! You have a wonderful 650s and have bought well but you can't deny the previous owner lost £50k in 7 months and that was on an already discounted lightly used car.

Shmee may well have lost 50k in a short period of time but that was his choice and I bet he couldn't stop smiling for all that time, he bought the car with 2900 miles so you are wrong on the figures, you are probably wrong on the price too as shmee has a very good relationship with Mcalren, but there you go again (money). If money is the main subject which as I've already mentioned before then why take the risk and invest it in a car, a car that you are too frightened to drive,I would like to see someone cover 12k in a Speciale then we could see how much that would depreciate. My point has been proved again and again, all about money.

Edited by greenbandit641 on Monday 21st September 08:40

[_Superleggera_]

greenbandit641 said:

Shmee may well have lost 50k in a short period of time but that was his choice and I bet he couldn't stop smiling for all that time, he bought the car with 2900 miles so you are wrong on the figures, you are probably wrong on the price too as shmee has a very good relationship with Mcalren, but there you go again (money). If money is the main subject which as I've already mentioned before then why take the risk and invest it in a car, a car that you are too frightened to drive,I would like to see someone cover 12k in a Speciale then we could see how much that would depreciate. My point has been proved again and again, all about money.

Edited by greenbandit641 on Monday 21st September 08:40

It's a fresh of breath air when I have a client who doesn't care about depreciation.

I have one client who does around 50 miles a year in his F40 because he is scared to lose money on it....

[s2000db]

boxerTen said:

s2000db said:

Yes, you'd think that if a Speciale was special, it could beat a TurboS around Anglesey...
Can a 650S?

The Anglesea coastal circuit is quite a tight one, so has the 650S got 4WD? No? There's your answer

Haha, I think in reality any high performance road car over £125k (plus the GTR) are all now within 'driver error' margins of each other, with the 'hyper cars' being a few percent quicker.. It's just how these cars deliver this performance seems to be virtually the only differentiator...

In reality it seems that visible performance advantages are only really evident on the drag strip, these days...

[greenbandit641]

If you want to start quoting lap times, the 12C was 3 secs quicker around the Top Gear track than the 458 which was embassing for Ferrari. I haven't seen any figures for the 650 around Anglesea so can't just guess. The speciale is a track focused car unlike the 650, so should be pretty quick around any track otherwise what is so speciale about it part from charging 40/50k more than a standard 458?

[_Superleggera_]

greenbandit641 said:

If you want to start quoting lap times, the 12C was 3 secs quicker around the Top Gear track than the 458 which was embassing for Ferrari. I haven't seen any figures for the 650 around Anglesea so can't just guess. The speciale is a track focused car unlike the 650, so should be pretty quick around any track otherwise what is so speciale about it part from charging 40/50k more than a standard 458?

I'd only really be interested in comparing the 675LT against a Speciale to be honest.

I have to say however I do really like the way McLaren are taking things recently. A friend of mine has a 570S on order and I can't wait to try out their "budget" model. The PCC on the 650S is sensational.

[flemke]

greenbandit641 said:

If you want to start quoting lap times, the 12C was 3 secs quicker around the Top Gear track than the 458 which was embassing for Ferrari. I haven't seen any figures for the 650 around Anglesea so can't just guess. The speciale is a track focused car unlike the 650, so should be pretty quick around any track otherwise what is so speciale about it part from charging 40/50k more than a standard 458?

If a track test of road cars involves the Ferrari factory, the Ferrari tested will be non-standard. This renders any lap time meaningless.

Another factor was illustrated at yesterday's Singapore GP. We all know that this year the Mercedes is the fastest car by a large margin - until they get to a circuit where both the Ferraris and the Red Bulls are quicker, and then it's only third-fastest. So the true "fastest car around a circuit" is...unknowable.

[greenbandit641]

_Superleggera_ said:

I'd only really be interested in comparing the 675LT against a Speciale to be honest.

I have to say however I do really like the way McLaren are taking things recently. A friend of mine has a 570S on order and I can't wait to try out their "budget" model. The PCC on the 650S is sensational.

At last, someone who is talking sense.