i should be whipped senseless with a knoted rope

[tuscaneer]

allister said:

Yeah good luck with that one!!

“Let your plans be dark and impenetrable as night, and when you move, fall like a thunderbolt.”
― Sun Tzu, The Art of War

[anonymous-user]

allister said:

Yeah good luck with that one!!

Lots of data, and a graph! Worked for me http://www.classicandsportsfinance.com/market-inte...

[allister]

thecook101 said:

Great problem to have I reckon pat yourself on the back for buying so wisely in the first place, then put the car under a cover and add no more than 1,500 miles a year, then do the man maths and buy something at the bottom of it's depreciation curve again. Being a collector AND an enthusiast is a great place to be.

Edited by thecook101 on Wednesday 23 December 11:10

Edited by thecook101 on Wednesday 23 December 11:12

I think you're absolutely right and this is my plan exactly - The car kept under cover and approximately 1,500 miles per year will still give me adequate driving enjoyment and of course pleasure in other ownership respects. With 20k currently on the clock, in 10 years time it will only be at 35k miles, showing that the car has still being kept active and all parts moving, while still having a very acceptable mileage for age, certainly not excessive for what will then be a 19 to 20 year old car.

[bordseye]

Wilmslowboy said:

The evidence is clear
.....sensitive about putting miles on it.
.....getting like enjoyment from it - other than through its rareness/value
......afraid if you sell you will miss out (miss out what - owning it or drving it)


Afraid the only conclusion is....


It's now a investment/collectable

Commiserations on your loss of a car you used to love....congratulations on your new investment...

+1 Neatly summed up.

[allister]

bordseye said:

Wilmslowboy said:

The evidence is clear
.....sensitive about putting miles on it.
.....getting like enjoyment from it - other than through its rareness/value
......afraid if you sell you will miss out (miss out what - owning it or drving it)


Afraid the only conclusion is....


It's now a investment/collectable

Commiserations on your loss of a car you used to love....congratulations on your new investment...

+1 Neatly summed up.

I agree, if people are terrified of putting miles on and enjoying their F430's and only covering say 200-300 miles per year then that is sad.....

However for me, I'm happy to cover moderate miles and keep my F430 Manual as something special, I drive it when the weather is good and I have a very comfortable, relaxing Range Rover for putting miles on if I'm wanting to cover distances and with todays traffic and roads, it's the only way I'd want to go.

I'm really not sure why owning a Ferrari which you makes you money and is now a collectable investment equals the sad face :-(

Edited by allister on Wednesday 23 December 14:58

[JayK12]

bordseye said:

Wilmslowboy said:

The evidence is clear
.....sensitive about putting miles on it.
.....getting like enjoyment from it - other than through its rareness/value
......afraid if you sell you will miss out (miss out what - owning it or drving it)


Afraid the only conclusion is....


It's now a investment/collectable

Commiserations on your loss of a car you used to love....congratulations on your new investment...

+1 Neatly summed up.

+2.

Its a shame to think you have to limit yourself to certain mileage, one trip around Europe and you have put 1000 miles on it. Sell it, take your profit, or put it under a cover. Go get a car you can drive no matter what.........458

[drainbrain]

I kept a manual 430 for nearly 5 years and was quite sad to see it go, BUT…... the 458 is on a different planet. Huge step forward. Specced and kept mine for 3 years and if I hadn't had to sell it I'd likely have kept it forever. Marvellous car.

[fossilfuelled]

I'd just drive the hell out of it and service it properly and regularly to keep it running well. Assuming you don't stuff it into a wall or suffer at the hands of another road user, it won't go down in value and you'll get to enjoy it. Stuff limiting yourself to milage. Like someone else said, one trip to Europe and you'll do 1,000 miles. Who's to say you don't have another year like 2015 and have too much going on to drive it anyway? Stop worrying and leave it in the fleet!
Why not just use the 430 when you want something fun and special, and buy yourself something fun, sporty and cheaper for more mundane but still driving pleasure use? The man maths makes sense.. The appreciation on the 430 will offset the depreciation on the other toy and you'll be winning on all fronts.
Don't bother with the 458. Dime a dozen. Yes it's moved on...but you have a future classic - one day to be as coveted as the 288, f40, f50 etc. The 458 will never hit that threshold of greatness in our lifetimes. Look the 488 is already out and something will be along to replace that and sell in even greater numbers in no time.

[andyvdg]

It comes down to what you value - the money or the driving.

The good news for the enthusiasts out there is I've racked up 8k miles in my manual F430 since I got it 18 months ago (now on 37k)- and will continue to do so. I bought it because I really wanted to drive a manual Ferrari and I could see that it was going to get harder to acquire one so went for it. Like my TVRs before I get my pleasure by driving my special cars daily - and move on when I've had enough - which seems to be 4-5 years for a great car. So do I care about the price on the current market ? Nope. It's my car and I'm driving it, that's what I want. When I do decide to change I'll be happy that a slightly lower priced, very well looked after car will be available to another enthusiast.

Speed matters / The Thrill of Driving and all that. Life is too short, get on with living it!

Merry Christmas everyone!

[RamboLambo]

fossilfuelled said:

I'd just drive the hell out of it and service it properly and regularly to keep it running well. Assuming you don't stuff it into a wall or suffer at the hands of another road user, it won't go down in value and you'll get to enjoy it. Stuff limiting yourself to milage. Like someone else said, one trip to Europe and you'll do 1,000 miles. Who's to say you don't have another year like 2015 and have too much going on to drive it anyway? Stop worrying and leave it in the fleet!
Why not just use the 430 when you want something fun and special, and buy yourself something fun, sporty and cheaper for more mundane but still driving pleasure use? The man maths makes sense.. The appreciation on the 430 will offset the depreciation on the other toy and you'll be winning on all fronts.
Don't bother with the 458. Dime a dozen. Yes it's moved on...but you have a future classic - one day to be as coveted as the 288, f40, f50 etc. The 458 will never hit that threshold of greatness in our lifetimes. Look the 488 is already out and something will be along to replace that and sell in even greater numbers in no time.

Agreed 458's are a dime a dozen but there are not many McLaren 12C's which are a better car anyway IMHO and the supercar bargain of the moment with a potential upside when the demand of the brand naturally grows with the younger generations that don't have the same affiliation with Ferrari and Lamborghini.
MP4 12C was Mclarens first entry into the mass supercar market and what they have achieved since 2011 is nothing short of staggering. As the brand rapidly grows and the range and products get better the early McLarens 12c/650S will be the new rare Ferrari's that appreciate in value. Tomorrows demand will undoubtedly be greater than today and with limited production numbers its a simple case of supply and demand but you have to be able to use your crystal ball and see into the bright future the McLaren brand has. Some people can and some can't but there is definitely a turning of the tide even if you just go on comments and trends on here. Constantly see a trend of Ferrari and Lamborghini defectors now who have realised how good the product and what value it represents when you are not paying premium just for the badge.
Interestingly the general publics reaction I have had suggests McLaren sits way above Ferrari and Lambo in terms of prestige and exclusivity despite the lack history
Bag a bargain and fantastic car now you can drive and enjoy and any appreciation 5 years + down the line is a Brucie bonus.

Cant see me ever off loading my 650S spider as its such an accomplished all round supercar. Even at looking to spend twice the money nothing floats my boat and I'm not about to sink £1m into a hypercar to try and replace it

Edited by RamboLambo on Thursday 24th December 12:49

[allister]

RamboLambo said:

Agreed 458's are a dime a dozen but there are not many McLaren 12C's which are a better car anyway IMHO and the supercar bargain of the moment with a potential upside when the demand of the brand naturally grows with the younger generations that don't have the same affiliation with Ferrari and Lamborghini.
MP4 12C was Mclarens first entry into the mass supercar market and what they have achieved since 2011 is nothing short of staggering. As the brand rapidly grows and the range and products get better the early McLarens 12c/650S will be the new rare Ferrari's that appreciate in value. Tomorrows demand will undoubtedly be greater than today and with limited production numbers its a simple case of supply and demand but you have to be able to use your crystal ball and see into the bright future the McLaren brand has. Some people can and some can't but there is definitely a turning of the tide even if you just go on comments and trends on here. Constantly see a trend of Ferrari and Lamborghini defectors now who have realised how good the product and what value it represents when you are not paying premium just for the badge.
Interestingly the general publics reaction I have had suggests McLaren sits way above Ferrari and Lambo in terms of prestige and exclusivity despite the lack history
Bag a bargain and fantastic car now you can drive and enjoy and any appreciation 5 years + down the line is a Brucie bonus.

Cant see me ever off loading my 650S spider as its such an accomplished all round supercar. Even at looking to spend twice the money nothing floats my boat and I'm not about to sink £1m into a hypercar to try and replace it

Edited by RamboLambo on Thursday 24th December 12:49

I've just read your comments above and I think you'll be one of two things..... Either absolutely right and these early McLaren's will become incredibly collectable and worth a fortune, or you'll be completely wrong and they will become a future supercar bargain. That said, while none of us really know for certain what will happen with the values of any of our cars, if I were a betting man, I'd probably go 80% in favour of your thoughts.

[RamboLambo]

allister said:

I've just read your comments above and I think you'll be one of two things..... Either absolutely right and these early McLaren's will become incredibly collectable and worth a fortune, or you'll be completely wrong and they will become a future supercar bargain. That said, while none of us really know for certain what will happen with the values of any of our cars, if I were a betting man, I'd probably go 80% in favour of your thoughts.

Its only a personal view and I don't think they will be worth an absolute fortune as such just more than they are currently.
It will heavily depend on Mclarens new product and success over the next 10 years but having started from scratch and the MP4 12C launch car heavily criticised by the journo's at the time ( subsequently addressed FOC with the 12c updates )the brand has been seriously under appreciated and valued IMHO and are already the bargain supercar.

The number of Italian defectors is greater than world war II currently so I'm obviously not the only one that is thinking this way

[bordseye]

I hope Maclaren do really succeed but I cant help thinking that in the UK at least, they will suffer for being British. Its all a matter of brand image isnt it. Any performance difference is so minor and so unuseable on the roads as to be worthless. So chosing which car to buy is a mixture of all sorts of image type issues.

Lotus has a superb racing heritage but would you ever think of paying Ferrari money for a Lotus car however good it was? Chapman tried and failed

Or to put it another way, why are Ferrari and Lambo listed here as Supercans but Aston are down as Other Makes?

[icebite78]

Oh I think you are!!!

[Camlet]

Marketing is a complex thing to get right. That's why there are so many so called marketing experts who are anything but.

Back in the 1960s a marketing genius called Stephen King (no, not the horror writer) summed up what makes a brand achieve that elusive X Factor status. He said a "power" brand combined two key elements:

Strong functional benefits combined with strong non-functional values. Not one or the other. Both, at the same time. Mr King cited two brands of toilet tissue that competed in the 60s. Both predictably offered strong functional benefits, but one used a little puppy to advertise itself. Does anyone remember Dixcel? Or, Andrex?

Today Apple combines both (Samsung doesn't). Nike does. Disney does (Star Wars is the latest remarkable Disney marketing achievement). Ferrari does.

McLaren has IMO, strong functional benefits (its cars are great) but its non functional values are weaker. Outside of its core admirers, who knows McLaren? In Aston Martin's case, the reverse sadly has always been true, its non functional values have been stronger than the cars themselves.

VW has done an impressive job re-establishing both Lambo and Bentley into powerful marques - the products are strong and non functional values rapidly growing.

Ferrari is one of the smartest operations on the planet. From a marketing point of view, they are quite brilliant. They create very strong products which are distinctive, very cleverly targeted and ruthlessly marketed, at every level. Mr King would be proud of Ferrari, and why for its competition, it remains the brand to beat. And why, generally its "products" command a premium versus its category rivals.

[allister]

Camlet said:

Marketing is a complex thing to get right. That's why there are so many so called marketing experts who are anything but.

Back in the 1960s a marketing genius called Stephen King (no, not the horror writer) summed up what makes a brand achieve that elusive X Factor status. He said a "power" brand combined two key elements:

Strong functional benefits combined with strong non-functional values. Not one or the other. Both, at the same time. Mr King cited two brands of toilet tissue that competed in the 60s. Both predictably offered strong functional benefits, but one used a little puppy to advertise itself. Does anyone remember Dixcel? Or, Andrex?

Today Apple combines both (Samsung doesn't). Nike does. Disney does (Star Wars is the latest remarkable Disney marketing achievement). Ferrari does.

McLaren has IMO, strong functional benefits (its cars are great) but its non functional values are weaker. Outside of its core admirers, who knows McLaren? In Aston Martin's case, the reverse sadly has always been true, its non functional values have been stronger than the cars themselves.

VW has done an impressive job re-establishing both Lambo and Bentley into powerful marques - the products are strong and non functional values rapidly growing.

Ferrari is one of the smartest operations on the planet. From a marketing point of view, they are quite brilliant. They create very strong products which are distinctive, very cleverly targeted and ruthlessly marketed, at every level. Mr King would be proud of Ferrari, and why for its competition, it remains the brand to beat. And why, generally its "products" command a premium versus its category rivals.

Interesting and well put across Camlet

[boxerTen]

bordseye said:

Lotus has a superb racing heritage but would you ever think of paying Ferrari money for a Lotus car however good it was? Chapman tried and failed

It is very very difficult for a supercar manufacturer to succeed if they don't build (or at least commission) their own engines - and they need to be excellent engines to boot. Lotus has never managed this. Fortunately McLaren has.

[bordseye]

Didnt Louts build their own V8 for the Esprit? . And the 4 cyl for the likes of the De Lorean? And the V8 wasnt a bad engine by then standards.

[keith jecks]

There is also the issue of engineering integrity. Lotus have always made cars that are very dubious in terms of their build quality "Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious" was well earned. By contract McLaren are obsessive in their engineering, so have a much better chance of long term appreciation. Never driven one myself and am much more excited by Ferraris, but I do have a huge respect for the McLaren

[boxerTen]

bordseye said:

Didnt Louts build their own V8 for the Esprit? . And the 4 cyl for the likes of the De Lorean? And the V8 wasnt a bad engine by then standards.

The Lotus V8 may not have been bad, but in a supercar a 'not bad' engine isn't enough. At the time Ferrari was extracting 375 bhp from naturally aspirated 3.5 litre V8s, and much more from smaller turbocharged V8s. Lotus' turbocharged 3.5 litre V8 should have produced 500, perhaps 550 bhp, instead it got 350 bhp which left people wondering what went wrong.