355 vs 360 vs 430 spider
Discussion
paulmnz said:
pretty sure the only difference between the 'daytona' and 'standard' seats is the design of the leather in the middle sections - the Daytona looks like the seats in the... urrr Daytona... from the 70's. There were options for electric/heated vs non which may also be part of the Daytona spec I'm not sure. what you really want are the 'race' seats which are lovely carbon fibre jobs and very comfortable. I've done a 8hr stint in my car with the carbon seats and they are among the most comfortable seats I've sat in. They could do with a little more upper body support for track work, so although they look 'racy' they aren't really proper racing seats but a good compromise.
Correct, Daytona refers to the stitch pattern. The Carbon Fibre race seats are available in different sizes and I agree with the above, have done many long stints and compared to the standard seat in all three cars mentioned they make a huge difference.The standard 355 is actually one of the worst seats I have had in any car, any European journey used to give chronic backache after a few hours. The standard 360 and 430 I find too flat and soft, they also don't give the right level of back support on a long journey in my opinion.
fastandcurious said:
I currently own a really nice low mileage 360 spider manual and i'm considering swapping for a 430 spider. I favour manual but have never driven the F1 version. Apart from the rarity and extra cost in the current market of the manual cars, are they really that much better to drive than the F1. Is the F1 gearbox reliable in normal use, does it eat clutches and does it feel clunky by modern standards. I'd like to gauge opinions before I go out and drive one.
Laying aside the 'residuals' part (your 360 manual will probably be worth a lot more than an F1 430 in the long term?)...Yes it is 'clunky' compared to a DSG/PDK type gearbox, but its a world better than the F1 in the 355 and the SMG's in the early M3s and a significant improvement on the 360 F1. the Scud superfast II F1 is the pinnacle of single-clutch automated manuals IMHO - I'd take a scud over a manual 430.
you need to drive the F1 as if it was a manual, the auto mode is truly awful - I've used it once since I bought the car - unfortunately it keeps defaulting to auto when you start the car (perhaps for emissions?)
While it may sound like I'm trying to justify not being able to afford a 458 with the dual clutch system - I prefer the F1. The first Ferrari I ever drove was a 458 and I drove a 430 scuderia the same day and hands down preferred the old skool F1 in the 430 scud - so much more drama, the violence of the shift at the redline is awesome - the standard 430 is a little slower, but still gives you a proper bang in the head as the gears slot home in race mode as if you were really going for it in a manual gearbox car. The 458 was of course faster at shifting, but reminded me of driving a fast slush-box and dampened the drama for me. The F1 system is actually pretty smooth when cruising along, at least as good as a 'normal' manual gearbox driver in my experience.
I'm sure passengers prefer the 458, but for someone who loves driving, the F1 (I think) is fantastic. Bearing in mind I have an S2000 which has one of the 'best' manual gear changes in a production car, I prefer the F1 system to the manual in the S2000. yes, heal and toe downshifts in the s2000 are fun, but the f1 is faster than I can manually change gears and it really is very clever. maybe on one or two occasions it hasn't done 'what I wanted' when I wanted it to.
Regarding reliability, they seem to be as reliable as the manual - occasionally reported issues with actuators failing, but these can be repaired / reconditioned. It was an evolution of the 360 system and a similar system was used on the 599 so by the time the 430 was around it was a pretty well tested system
Regarding the clutch life - depends how it's driven (of course) so everyone is different. avoid stop-start traffic and lots of low-speed manoeuvring and you should get a long life - I've done about 3,500 miles since I bought my car and had it read by the diagnostics machine - 40% wear at the service before I bought the car, 41% wear now - it's not an exact science, as the computer 'guesses' the wear to some degree, but gives you an idea. Drive the car like a manual, be positive when you drive away from a standing start (ie get it engaged as soon as possible) and do not creep like you might in an auto as the computer will ride the clutch and it should last as long as a clutch in the manual car.
Launch control will of course eat the clutch in quick time - rumour has it that a clutch will last as little as 4 LC starts and then fail(!) who knows how on earth that was signed off as 'acceptable' in Ferrari land. the 458 has a wet clutch so apparently you can use launch control as much as you like. I've obviously never used LC, but will try it on the way to the dealer when the clutch needs replacing! ha.
I know the Gallardo e-gear has a reputation for eating clutches, but it's a completely different animal and from the contemporary reviews, it's not as good as the Ferrari F1 system by a long way (see the video of Jason plato driving the first one at snetterton and he hated the gearbox, both him and tiff loved the F1.
Thanks for these excellent insights. So that Nero/Crema one at Stratton seems expensive with a lack of options? It looks like at least £5k more for some higher spec cars. What about any of these paulmnz?
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/new-cars/compare/adver...
http://www.autotrader.co.uk/new-cars/compare/adver...
I agree with paulmnz entirely. The F1 box in my 2008 430 is excellent. The changes are fast and jerk free and it even works acceptably in auto mode for my wife. All my sports cars hitherto have been manual so I am used to heel and toe etc. But I see no more reason for sticking to manual over flappy paddles than I see sticking to ordinary brakes rather than abs. Technology moves on.
Clutch life? I dont know and will not do so until ,it gives out, but in the context of the costs of owning a Ferrari, a new clutch isnt a ballbreaker.
Clutch life? I dont know and will not do so until ,it gives out, but in the context of the costs of owning a Ferrari, a new clutch isnt a ballbreaker.
paulmnz said:
Laying aside the 'residuals' part (your 360 manual will probably be worth a lot more than an F1 430 in the long term?)...
Yes it is 'clunky' compared to a DSG/PDK type gearbox, but its a world better than the F1 in the 355 and the SMG's in the early M3s and a significant improvement on the 360 F1. the Scud superfast II F1 is the pinnacle of single-clutch automated manuals IMHO - I'd take a scud over a manual 430.
you need to drive the F1 as if it was a manual, the auto mode is truly awful - I've used it once since I bought the car - unfortunately it keeps defaulting to auto when you start the car (perhaps for emissions?)
While it may sound like I'm trying to justify not being able to afford a 458 with the dual clutch system - I prefer the F1. The first Ferrari I ever drove was a 458 and I drove a 430 scuderia the same day and hands down preferred the old skool F1 in the 430 scud - so much more drama, the violence of the shift at the redline is awesome - the standard 430 is a little slower, but still gives you a proper bang in the head as the gears slot home in race mode as if you were really going for it in a manual gearbox car. The 458 was of course faster at shifting, but reminded me of driving a fast slush-box and dampened the drama for me. The F1 system is actually pretty smooth when cruising along, at least as good as a 'normal' manual gearbox driver in my experience.
I'm sure passengers prefer the 458, but for someone who loves driving, the F1 (I think) is fantastic. Bearing in mind I have an S2000 which has one of the 'best' manual gear changes in a production car, I prefer the F1 system to the manual in the S2000. yes, heal and toe downshifts in the s2000 are fun, but the f1 is faster than I can manually change gears and it really is very clever. maybe on one or two occasions it hasn't done 'what I wanted' when I wanted it to.
Regarding reliability, they seem to be as reliable as the manual - occasionally reported issues with actuators failing, but these can be repaired / reconditioned. It was an evolution of the 360 system and a similar system was used on the 599 so by the time the 430 was around it was a pretty well tested system
Regarding the clutch life - depends how it's driven (of course) so everyone is different. avoid stop-start traffic and lots of low-speed manoeuvring and you should get a long life - I've done about 3,500 miles since I bought my car and had it read by the diagnostics machine - 40% wear at the service before I bought the car, 41% wear now - it's not an exact science, as the computer 'guesses' the wear to some degree, but gives you an idea. Drive the car like a manual, be positive when you drive away from a standing start (ie get it engaged as soon as possible) and do not creep like you might in an auto as the computer will ride the clutch and it should last as long as a clutch in the manual car.
Launch control will of course eat the clutch in quick time - rumour has it that a clutch will last as little as 4 LC starts and then fail(!) who knows how on earth that was signed off as 'acceptable' in Ferrari land. the 458 has a wet clutch so apparently you can use launch control as much as you like. I've obviously never used LC, but will try it on the way to the dealer when the clutch needs replacing! ha.
I know the Gallardo e-gear has a reputation for eating clutches, but it's a completely different animal and from the contemporary reviews, it's not as good as the Ferrari F1 system by a long way (see the video of Jason plato driving the first one at snetterton and he hated the gearbox, both him and tiff loved the F1.
Thanks for that paulmnz. I've noticed that most of the pundits loved the 430 when it came out and I doubt whether many of them were even offered a manual one to drive. Yes it is 'clunky' compared to a DSG/PDK type gearbox, but its a world better than the F1 in the 355 and the SMG's in the early M3s and a significant improvement on the 360 F1. the Scud superfast II F1 is the pinnacle of single-clutch automated manuals IMHO - I'd take a scud over a manual 430.
you need to drive the F1 as if it was a manual, the auto mode is truly awful - I've used it once since I bought the car - unfortunately it keeps defaulting to auto when you start the car (perhaps for emissions?)
While it may sound like I'm trying to justify not being able to afford a 458 with the dual clutch system - I prefer the F1. The first Ferrari I ever drove was a 458 and I drove a 430 scuderia the same day and hands down preferred the old skool F1 in the 430 scud - so much more drama, the violence of the shift at the redline is awesome - the standard 430 is a little slower, but still gives you a proper bang in the head as the gears slot home in race mode as if you were really going for it in a manual gearbox car. The 458 was of course faster at shifting, but reminded me of driving a fast slush-box and dampened the drama for me. The F1 system is actually pretty smooth when cruising along, at least as good as a 'normal' manual gearbox driver in my experience.
I'm sure passengers prefer the 458, but for someone who loves driving, the F1 (I think) is fantastic. Bearing in mind I have an S2000 which has one of the 'best' manual gear changes in a production car, I prefer the F1 system to the manual in the S2000. yes, heal and toe downshifts in the s2000 are fun, but the f1 is faster than I can manually change gears and it really is very clever. maybe on one or two occasions it hasn't done 'what I wanted' when I wanted it to.
Regarding reliability, they seem to be as reliable as the manual - occasionally reported issues with actuators failing, but these can be repaired / reconditioned. It was an evolution of the 360 system and a similar system was used on the 599 so by the time the 430 was around it was a pretty well tested system
Regarding the clutch life - depends how it's driven (of course) so everyone is different. avoid stop-start traffic and lots of low-speed manoeuvring and you should get a long life - I've done about 3,500 miles since I bought my car and had it read by the diagnostics machine - 40% wear at the service before I bought the car, 41% wear now - it's not an exact science, as the computer 'guesses' the wear to some degree, but gives you an idea. Drive the car like a manual, be positive when you drive away from a standing start (ie get it engaged as soon as possible) and do not creep like you might in an auto as the computer will ride the clutch and it should last as long as a clutch in the manual car.
Launch control will of course eat the clutch in quick time - rumour has it that a clutch will last as little as 4 LC starts and then fail(!) who knows how on earth that was signed off as 'acceptable' in Ferrari land. the 458 has a wet clutch so apparently you can use launch control as much as you like. I've obviously never used LC, but will try it on the way to the dealer when the clutch needs replacing! ha.
I know the Gallardo e-gear has a reputation for eating clutches, but it's a completely different animal and from the contemporary reviews, it's not as good as the Ferrari F1 system by a long way (see the video of Jason plato driving the first one at snetterton and he hated the gearbox, both him and tiff loved the F1.
I think launch control is probably the main cause for clutch failure on the 430. I'm coming round to the idea that manual is probably more me, especially as I currently have a 360 manual. Even if I have to work for the throttle blips on the down change (not that easy on the 360). H&T much easier on my TVR Griffith!!
My last F430 was a manual and its replacement is an F1. The manual is fantastic when not really 'on it' but I found because of the cars' performance it gets in the way a bit, especially on tighter sections of road. I should imagine the 360 manual is a great package if you are happy with its performance.
For me the F1 should keep the feeling of interaction at lower speeds with a crisp, responsive, change and plug the efficiency gap during spirited driving. What I've found is it does neither; I it’s a bit slow to react and certainly too slow to change.
I bought my F430 with the intention of converting to Superfast2 but if I wasn't doing that I would accept the small compromise and go with a manual.
For me the F1 should keep the feeling of interaction at lower speeds with a crisp, responsive, change and plug the efficiency gap during spirited driving. What I've found is it does neither; I it’s a bit slow to react and certainly too slow to change.
I bought my F430 with the intention of converting to Superfast2 but if I wasn't doing that I would accept the small compromise and go with a manual.
mwstewart said:
My last F430 was a manual and its replacement is an F1. The manual is fantastic when not really 'on it' but I found because of the cars' performance it gets in the way a bit, especially on tighter sections of road. I should imagine the 360 manual is a great package if you are happy with its performance.
For me the F1 should keep the feeling of interaction at lower speeds with a crisp, responsive, change and plug the efficiency gap during spirited driving. What I've found is it does neither; I it’s a bit slow to react and certainly too slow to change.
I bought my F430 with the intention of converting to Superfast2 but if I wasn't doing that I would accept the small compromise and go with a manual.
My experience of every F1 transmission from the 355 to 430 has been that they are clunky and counter-intuitive. I once sold a 360 F1 after two months because I really did not get on with the gearchange. Software upgrades help but the first F1 I liked was the 599 and then the 430 Scuderia. And then when I drove a 458 it truly was night and day over everything else.For me the F1 should keep the feeling of interaction at lower speeds with a crisp, responsive, change and plug the efficiency gap during spirited driving. What I've found is it does neither; I it’s a bit slow to react and certainly too slow to change.
I bought my F430 with the intention of converting to Superfast2 but if I wasn't doing that I would accept the small compromise and go with a manual.
cgt2 said:
My experience of every F1 transmission from the 355 to 430 has been that they are clunky and counter-intuitive. I once sold a 360 F1 after two months because I really did not get on with the gearchange. Software upgrades help but the first F1 I liked was the 599 and then the 430 Scuderia. And then when I drove a 458 it truly was night and day over everything else.
The 599 100ms is what the F430 should have been fitted with all along. If BMW had a reliable 80ms SMG2 system in 2002 I really don't understand why Ferrari had a 150-160ms clutch wearing system in 2005-2009. The SMG2 is night and day in feel and obviously speed.I'll have to disagree on the 458 however. I don't want that kind of transmission in a Ferrari.
mwstewart said:
cgt2 said:
My experience of every F1 transmission from the 355 to 430 has been that they are clunky and counter-intuitive. I once sold a 360 F1 after two months because I really did not get on with the gearchange. Software upgrades help but the first F1 I liked was the 599 and then the 430 Scuderia. And then when I drove a 458 it truly was night and day over everything else.
The 599 100ms is what the F430 should have been fitted with all along. If BMW had a reliable 80ms SMG2 system in 2002 I really don't understand why Ferrari had a 150-160ms clutch wearing system in 2005-2009. The SMG2 is night and day in feel and obviously speed.I'll have to disagree on the 458 however. I don't want that kind of transmission in a Ferrari.
I love the 458, California, FF gearbox - absolutely seamless, I just prefer the manual in my 430 - there's just some (almost) unquantifiable pleasure from the whole experience - for me anyway :-)
jasonwdh said:
I'm a hybrid of both your opinions! I didn't get on with the F1 transmission in my 360CS, it was ok - just didn't really like it.
I love the 458, California, FF gearbox - absolutely seamless, I just prefer the manual in my 430 - there's just some (almost) unquantifiable pleasure from the whole experience - for me anyway :-)
It just goes to show transmission choice is a horses for courses thing@ The manual is a lovely 'box to use.I love the 458, California, FF gearbox - absolutely seamless, I just prefer the manual in my 430 - there's just some (almost) unquantifiable pleasure from the whole experience - for me anyway :-)
mwstewart said:
jasonwdh said:
I'm a hybrid of both your opinions! I didn't get on with the F1 transmission in my 360CS, it was ok - just didn't really like it.
I love the 458, California, FF gearbox - absolutely seamless, I just prefer the manual in my 430 - there's just some (almost) unquantifiable pleasure from the whole experience - for me anyway :-)
It just goes to show transmission choice is a horses for courses thing@ The manual is a lovely 'box to use.I love the 458, California, FF gearbox - absolutely seamless, I just prefer the manual in my 430 - there's just some (almost) unquantifiable pleasure from the whole experience - for me anyway :-)
paulmnz said:
Seems strong money for a car with few desirable options... but if you like the spec, it seems very tidy/well cared for.
I got a spec sheet through from the dealer and it has a bit more than stated in the add including: Daytona style heated seats, 6 CD changer, Radionavi system + Bluetooth, front and rear parking sensors, leather headlining and rear bench, carbon fibre instrument panel inserts etc.Might have to take it out for a test drive, but one of the 2 manual F430s advertised is only 84 miles away
FunkyMunky71 said:
What other options are the most desirable to look out for?
my list of options wasn't very extensive when I was looking to be honest.Wanted Non Red/Crema Manual Spider, Shields, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH
Got Yellow/Black manual Spider, shields, challenge wheels, yellow brake calipers, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH.
If I need Nav I'll use my iPhone, it's probably better!
All down to personal preference as usual, buy what you want not what you think someone who will eventually buy it off you wants...
Opinions vary on the spec (btw the link you send further up was 'blank' for compared cars).
generally speaking, what I noticed when looking for mine...
'must have':
- Wing shields (apparently!)
- Carbon dashboard inserts (aluminium seems to look like plastic) all the cars without carbon seem to take a while to sell / price hit
'Desirable':
- Extended carbon (centre console), on 2008+ cars the steering wheel, paddles and gauge facia were a carbon option
- challenge wheels
- satnav / Bluetooth and/or the enhanced hifi (both are rubbish imho, but apparently desirable)
- Daytona seat design vs standard
- challenge wheels
- yellow tach (rather than red)
- contrasting stitching on cars with black interior
- parking sensors / TMPS on later cars
'rare, but very desirable'
- scuderia wheels
- challenge rear grill (carbon)
- Titanium wheel bolts (really?!)
- Carbon race seats
- personalised name plate (americans love these apparently)
'jury is out'
- CCM brakes - some insist on them, others are concerned about replacement costs and specifically avoid them
my short list of 'must have' when I was looking was:
- CCM brakes
- Carbon race seats
- Carbon dashboard
- yellow tach (not sure why, I think maybe the red just looks odd for some reason)
everything else was 'nice to have' and based on the actual car in question (age, mileage colour etc)
obviously, it's completely up to the individual and you should buy what you like, just my view of the market when I looked, plus the bits I was looking for personally.
generally speaking, what I noticed when looking for mine...
'must have':
- Wing shields (apparently!)
- Carbon dashboard inserts (aluminium seems to look like plastic) all the cars without carbon seem to take a while to sell / price hit
'Desirable':
- Extended carbon (centre console), on 2008+ cars the steering wheel, paddles and gauge facia were a carbon option
- challenge wheels
- satnav / Bluetooth and/or the enhanced hifi (both are rubbish imho, but apparently desirable)
- Daytona seat design vs standard
- challenge wheels
- yellow tach (rather than red)
- contrasting stitching on cars with black interior
- parking sensors / TMPS on later cars
'rare, but very desirable'
- scuderia wheels
- challenge rear grill (carbon)
- Titanium wheel bolts (really?!)
- Carbon race seats
- personalised name plate (americans love these apparently)
'jury is out'
- CCM brakes - some insist on them, others are concerned about replacement costs and specifically avoid them
my short list of 'must have' when I was looking was:
- CCM brakes
- Carbon race seats
- Carbon dashboard
- yellow tach (not sure why, I think maybe the red just looks odd for some reason)
everything else was 'nice to have' and based on the actual car in question (age, mileage colour etc)
obviously, it's completely up to the individual and you should buy what you like, just my view of the market when I looked, plus the bits I was looking for personally.
jasonwdh said:
my list of options wasn't very extensive when I was looking to be honest.
Wanted Non Red/Crema Manual Spider, Shields, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH
Got Yellow/Black manual Spider, shields, challenge wheels, yellow brake calipers, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH.
If I need Nav I'll use my iPhone, it's probably better!
All down to personal preference as usual, buy what you want not what you think someone who will eventually buy it off you wants...
You have impeccable taste sir Wanted Non Red/Crema Manual Spider, Shields, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH
Got Yellow/Black manual Spider, shields, challenge wheels, yellow brake calipers, cf driving zone, bluetooth, FFSH.
If I need Nav I'll use my iPhone, it's probably better!
All down to personal preference as usual, buy what you want not what you think someone who will eventually buy it off you wants...
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