Discussion
WDISMYL said:
Sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison.
The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
Plus the red 720S I saw in the private area of McLaren's stand at Geneva last year was specced to £315,000 according to their guys on the stand. F12s were supposedly mid 200s, loads specced over 300.The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
List and specced up car are two different things. My 458 Spider was 199 list, 244 on paper. Bloody stupid carbon prices.
seawise said:
MDL111 said:
currently short winter snowboarding trips and some autobahn driving will have to do (has the advantage that the car sounds awesome on cold start up when temps are below zero)
Leg - Fiesta XR2 eh, 90 hp of Dagenhams finest. I remember going out with a girl who's first car was a new alpine white E30 325i convertible. remember losing interest in her when I drove it and thought it a floppy dull Germanic thing. and she was quite a looker too. happy days.
WDISMYL said:
Sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison.
The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
Not sure if you mean my comparing the two was ridiculous or not. My point was that the Pista looks very cheap compared to the McLaren. And I suspect 100k premium for the Pista is on the low side. Insane but seems to be the way the market is going at the moment. The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
MDL111 said:
seawise said:
MDL111 said:
currently short winter snowboarding trips and some autobahn driving will have to do (has the advantage that the car sounds awesome on cold start up when temps are below zero)
Leg - Fiesta XR2 eh, 90 hp of Dagenhams finest. I remember going out with a girl who's first car was a new alpine white E30 325i convertible. remember losing interest in her when I drove it and thought it a floppy dull Germanic thing. and she was quite a looker too. happy days.
DeltaOne said:
WDISMYL said:
Sorry but that is a ridiculous comparison.
The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
Not sure if you mean my comparing the two was ridiculous or not. My point was that the Pista looks very cheap compared to the McLaren. And I suspect 100k premium for the Pista is on the low side. Insane but seems to be the way the market is going at the moment. The 720s is available to all and sundry. The Pista will almost certainly command an initial £100k premium which is why there is in part insane demand for it. You are comparing apples with oranges. If the cars were issued to customers on an auction basis they would not be trading at £250k!
Therefore any pricing comparison to a standard production car by a competitor is nonsensical.
It’s only a fair price if you are one of the chosen! Nobody else can get it at that price.
Base price will still be north of £250k IMHO but by the time you option it up and Ferrari will be "encouraging" you to do so I reckon the average car will be closer to £325k.
With 458 speciales trading at £330k Ferrari could set that as the base price for 488VS if they really wanted to. I';m sure they will tweak it up a bit but there will still be room for a used premium albeit no so big as in the past.
Anyway, as I'm one of the great unwashed and unworthy I couldn't give 2 hoots. hope the luckt few get to use and enjoy the car and it doesn't sit in a garage as another investment for those who probably don't need the money
With 458 speciales trading at £330k Ferrari could set that as the base price for 488VS if they really wanted to. I';m sure they will tweak it up a bit but there will still be room for a used premium albeit no so big as in the past.
Anyway, as I'm one of the great unwashed and unworthy I couldn't give 2 hoots. hope the luckt few get to use and enjoy the car and it doesn't sit in a garage as another investment for those who probably don't need the money
WDISMYL said:
You were trying to say that Ferrari were being “fair” to their clients by offering it at such a low price. But they aren’t offering it to their clients - they are rewarding a chosen few with a special car at a deliberate below market price.
Therefore any pricing comparison to a standard production car by a competitor is nonsensical.
It’s only a fair price if you are one of the chosen! Nobody else can get it at that price.
Each manufacturer has their own way of allocating obviously, and of course you're right that this will likely be below the market price in terms of what it will fetch when released. The only thing I'd say in Ferrari's favour on their allocations are more transparent than some others - i.e. they tend to allocate these over-list price cars to those who have been loyal to the brand over a long period, and have therefore lost a lot of some cars in the past, and not flipped any for profits in the past. No method of allocation is going to please everyone, but this seems a little fairer to me than the old game of sucking up to the Dealer Principal?Therefore any pricing comparison to a standard production car by a competitor is nonsensical.
It’s only a fair price if you are one of the chosen! Nobody else can get it at that price.
As I tell my kids on a regular basis - life isn’t fair - and that if they expect life to be fair they will grow up to be very angry, bitter people.
I’m genuinely happy for those who have been selected and yes , generally the allocation will reward the most loyal customer. But there will also be some anomalies to remind everyone that life is not fair!
I just find it amusing that NA engines are meant to be the purists choice of weapon but the market is about to pay a big over for a tweaked turbo charged engine when the Pista hits the secondary market. I wonder what the 458 speciale / Pista spread will be in 20 years time. Will the purists have got it right or will anyone care!
I’m genuinely happy for those who have been selected and yes , generally the allocation will reward the most loyal customer. But there will also be some anomalies to remind everyone that life is not fair!
I just find it amusing that NA engines are meant to be the purists choice of weapon but the market is about to pay a big over for a tweaked turbo charged engine when the Pista hits the secondary market. I wonder what the 458 speciale / Pista spread will be in 20 years time. Will the purists have got it right or will anyone care!
WDISMYL said:
As I tell my kids on a regular basis - life isn’t fair - and that if they expect life to be fair they will grow up to be very angry, bitter people.
This is sound advice to children 
Meanwhile I think Ferrari have missed a trick on the turbo excitement front.
What about a kick-in-the-back boost F40 style ?
That's what Turbo's are all about
WDISMYL said:
As I tell my kids on a regular basis - life isn’t fair - and that if they expect life to be fair they will grow up to be very angry, bitter people.
I’m genuinely happy for those who have been selected and yes , generally the allocation will reward the most loyal customer. But there will also be some anomalies to remind everyone that life is not fair!
I just find it amusing that NA engines are meant to be the purists choice of weapon but the market is about to pay a big over for a tweaked turbo charged engine when the Pista hits the secondary market. I wonder what the 458 speciale / Pista spread will be in 20 years time. Will the purists have got it right or will anyone care!
NA is for the purists and the market is going to pay overs for a limited edition "prancing horse" badge not engine. I’m genuinely happy for those who have been selected and yes , generally the allocation will reward the most loyal customer. But there will also be some anomalies to remind everyone that life is not fair!
I just find it amusing that NA engines are meant to be the purists choice of weapon but the market is about to pay a big over for a tweaked turbo charged engine when the Pista hits the secondary market. I wonder what the 458 speciale / Pista spread will be in 20 years time. Will the purists have got it right or will anyone care!
I think the 488 was a disappointment after 458 despite being the "better" car. I'm sure pista ke will improve on the weak areas of the standard car but not to speciale levels of excitement.
I've had a range of NA and turbocharged cars supercars and enjoyed the merits of both but after much deliberation I have finally decided that there is something quite special about a NA engine in terms of sound and response and with it now being a dying breed the choice is limited. May as well go out on the pinnacle in the Perfomante
sparta6 said:
Yipper said:
NA engines will inevitably go the same way as manual gearboxes. Lower penetration, but rising used prices (due to rarity and fun-factor).
Almost everything will go turbo (and electric hybrid).
Turbos are so powerful now, there is just no way NA engines can compete longterm.
Today, right now, you can (reliably) remap a ~£30k VW Golf R turbo to ~600bhp in ~24hrs for <£10k and it will stick like glue to almost every ~£250k Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche on the market. NA engines simply cannot match that kind of "bang for your buck".
Yes, but the Golf still looks and sounds like a vacuum cleaner Almost everything will go turbo (and electric hybrid).
Turbos are so powerful now, there is just no way NA engines can compete longterm.
Today, right now, you can (reliably) remap a ~£30k VW Golf R turbo to ~600bhp in ~24hrs for <£10k and it will stick like glue to almost every ~£250k Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche on the market. NA engines simply cannot match that kind of "bang for your buck".
Edited by sparta6 on Friday 23 February 09:57
Yipper said:
sparta6 said:
Yipper said:
NA engines will inevitably go the same way as manual gearboxes. Lower penetration, but rising used prices (due to rarity and fun-factor).
Almost everything will go turbo (and electric hybrid).
Turbos are so powerful now, there is just no way NA engines can compete longterm.
Today, right now, you can (reliably) remap a ~£30k VW Golf R turbo to ~600bhp in ~24hrs for <£10k and it will stick like glue to almost every ~£250k Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche on the market. NA engines simply cannot match that kind of "bang for your buck".
Yes, but the Golf still looks and sounds like a vacuum cleaner Almost everything will go turbo (and electric hybrid).
Turbos are so powerful now, there is just no way NA engines can compete longterm.
Today, right now, you can (reliably) remap a ~£30k VW Golf R turbo to ~600bhp in ~24hrs for <£10k and it will stick like glue to almost every ~£250k Lambo, Ferrari, McLaren and Porsche on the market. NA engines simply cannot match that kind of "bang for your buck".
Edited by sparta6 on Friday 23 February 09:57
The thing is the "price" new is not really the price its like a reward to certain customers. If you have got enough money you will be able to get one on the "used" market. The question then is if the premium to get a used on is say 400k then what else could you get for that money?
On the N/A vs turbo subject, I went for a 488 because I wanted the turbo charged version, my last car was a V8 N/A. It all just comes down to personal preference at the time.
People talk about purists but in 20 years time most cars will be electric and my bet is Formula E will be pushing Formula 1 as the most popular racing series. Wait until you see the next Formula E race car for next season, will be revealed at Geneva, it's a complete game changer, everything up to now has really been a development project.
On the N/A vs turbo subject, I went for a 488 because I wanted the turbo charged version, my last car was a V8 N/A. It all just comes down to personal preference at the time.
People talk about purists but in 20 years time most cars will be electric and my bet is Formula E will be pushing Formula 1 as the most popular racing series. Wait until you see the next Formula E race car for next season, will be revealed at Geneva, it's a complete game changer, everything up to now has really been a development project.
Edited by LIVENT on Saturday 24th February 07:34
LIVENT said:
People talk about purists but in 20 years time most cars will be electric and my bet is Formula E will be pushing Formula 1 as the most popular racing series. Wait until you see the next Formula E race car for next season, will be revealed at Geneva, it's a complete game changer, everything up to now has really been a development project.
Let's wait and see. Despite the large investments from manufacturers how many people want to attend a live concert without the music ? Stunning visuals alone are not enough.Edited by LIVENT on Saturday 24th February 07:34
And just because manufacturers are currently backing Formula E does not mean they are correct. They have enough cash to take a gamble, fair play. But does anyone remember Sky 3D ? That was supposed to be the next "big thing" and backed by the sharpest minds in Pay TV.
Acres of wiring looms cannot substitute the human need for engaging and authentic sound.
LIVENT said:
The thing is the "price" new is not really the price its like a reward to certain customers.
This only applies to a small handful of cars. Edited by LIVENT on Saturday 24th February 07:34
For example the LaF Aperta. Ferrari knows, as do the Aperta's chosen list of customers, the car is a huge thank you. It must have had a paper profit of around 3+ million the moment it was delivered. And why not? The people who were offered an Aperta have not only spent fortunes with Ferrari, and continue to do so, they participate heavily in Ferrari life (the Corse Clienti, Concorso etc). Something Ferrari values considerably.
Regarding everything else, including the Pista, people forget too quickly the market is anything but solid. The 599 GTO (a great car and unlike the Pista an LE) was around 330K new and had lost value in 2011 by about 10%. By the end of 2012 the entire market was moving fast to the upside. The GTO at one point hit 850K for a UK mint car. Now that's nearer to something beginning with 5. But could easily track south.
The Pista will be a giant of a car. And apart from a few brave flippers (there will not be many as flippers are easily spotted and will be immediately black listed by Ferrari) the Pista should hopefully hold its value. But anyone expecting a huge upside will be very disappointed. The Pista reward from Ferrari will not be the money you make, it will be having the opportunity to spec your own car and drive it hard from new.
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