488 VS

[bertie]

RamboLambo said:

bertie said:

I’m told £18k for carbon wheels.

Most of the other carbon is standard on Pista

Sounds like a PISTA KE is going to be £325k specced up then,

I wonder if I will be able to pick up a 1k miles Pista with a £30k discount?

https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-spottedyky...

[RamboLambo]

bertie said:

I wonder if I will be able to pick up a 1k miles Pista with a £30k discount?

https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-spottedyky...

Initial "Launch" spec cars are being off loaded for customers to get into their own specced cars. Supply and demand on used car market has effected price because unless a used launch spec suits you at a discounted price you will obviously order new. Once these cars are washed through and the market realises how good they are supported by all the reviews some normality will return.
Good buy now used IMHO

[MingtheMerciless]

RamboLambo said:

Initial "Launch" spec cars are being off loaded for customers to get into their own specced cars. Supply and demand on used car market has effected price because unless a used launch spec suits you at a discounted price you will obviously order new. Once these cars are washed through and the market realises how good they are supported by all the reviews some normality will return.
Good buy now used IMHO

Accordingly I am looking forward to "launch" spec Pistas with rubbish specs to buy at a discount.

[Durzel]

RamboLambo said:

Initial "Launch" spec cars are being off loaded for customers to get into their own specced cars. Supply and demand on used car market has effected price because unless a used launch spec suits you at a discounted price you will obviously order new. Once these cars are washed through and the market realises how good they are supported by all the reviews some normality will return.
Good buy now used IMHO

I'm not sure dropping the price by £30k is going to encourage people to believe that prices are going to trend upwards, quite the opposite in fact. Who wants to catch a falling knife?

Also, with respect, if I had £1 for every time you've talked about "once the market wakes up", I'd be able to buy a Pista at the £100k overs its going to command, in any spec.

[RamboLambo]

Durzel said:

I'm not sure dropping the price by £30k is going to encourage people to believe that prices are going to trend upwards, quite the opposite in fact. Who wants to catch a falling knife?

Also, with respect, if I had £1 for every time you've talked about "once the market wakes up", I'd be able to buy a Pista at the £100k overs its going to command, in any spec.

Fair play to you if you want to pay £100k overs for a 488 pista so lets say £430k when you can have a 720S at say £230k. £200k differential because of the prancing horse badge

One seems incredibly good value to me and you pays your money and takes your choice.
Just saying like as I've never intended to buy a 720S from the very outset and I'm not a massive fan of it although I admire and respect the performance.
I've got 2 Lambos coming before the next 2 McLarens

Edited by RamboLambo on Tuesday 13th March 18:07

[Durzel]

RamboLambo said:

Fair play to you if you want to pay £100k overs for a 488 pista so lets say £430k when you can have a 720S at say £230k. £200k differential because of the prancing horse badge

One seems incredibly good value to me and you pays your money and takes your choice.
Just saying like as I've never intended to buy a 720S from the very outset and I'm not a massive fan of it although I admire and respect the performance.
I've got 2 Lambos coming before the next 2 McLarens

Edited by RamboLambo on Tuesday 13th March 18:07

I personally wouldn't pay the overs on principal, but that's what they'll command.

Not taking anything away from 720S at all, but Ferrari know their market very well. I'm actually rather disappointed the Pista isn't a regular special edition like the Speciale was, to be honest.

[RamboLambo]

Durzel said:

I personally wouldn't pay the overs on principal, but that's what they'll command.

Not taking anything away from 720S at all, but Ferrari know their market very well. I'm actually rather disappointed the Pista isn't a regular special edition like the Speciale was, to be honest.

Some are saying the PISTA is a REGULAR PRODUCTION car and not limited edition/number ?
But that doesn't stack with no one being able to order one. Confused.com

[mwstewart]

RamboLambo said:

Durzel said:

I personally wouldn't pay the overs on principal, but that's what they'll command.

Not taking anything away from 720S at all, but Ferrari know their market very well. I'm actually rather disappointed the Pista isn't a regular special edition like the Speciale was, to be honest.

Some are saying the PISTA is a REGULAR PRODUCTION car and not limited edition/number ?
But that doesn't stack with no one being able to order one. Confused.com

Marketing. I suspect they aren't opening the floodgates because a bit of clever supply management sees better margins overall during the first year.

[traxx]

RamboLambo said:

Durzel said:

I personally wouldn't pay the overs on principal, but that's what they'll command.

Not taking anything away from 720S at all, but Ferrari know their market very well. I'm actually rather disappointed the Pista isn't a regular special edition like the Speciale was, to be honest.

Some are saying the PISTA is a REGULAR PRODUCTION car and not limited edition/number ?
But that doesn't stack with no one being able to order one. Confused.com

No doubt in years to come academics will use the Pista as an example of outstanding marketing

Unless the economy crashes Ferrari look unstoppable as a company in the near term - building higher and higher margin cars where demand exceeds supply

[_Leg_]

RamboLambo said:

Fair play to you if you want to pay £100k overs for a 488 pista so lets say £430k when you can have a 720S at say £230k. £200k differential because of the prancing horse badge

Like it or not the Ferrari will still be the cheaper car to own in the long run.

[Durzel]

Secondary market prices won't be "known" for a while I feel, because anyone caught flipping the car can kiss the chance of an Aperta goodbye.

I presume it's not particularly difficult for Ferrari to trace flippers when they only have ~200 (if the previously posted numbers are to be believed) customers, all invited.

[RamboLambo]

_Leg_ said:

Like it or not the Ferrari will still be the cheaper car to own in the long run.

List price to list undoubtedly yes and always will be but surely not at that level above. I kind of get a premium on 458 speciale as the last N/A V8 Ferrari but 488 being turbocharged has lost something for me and is right up against McLaren like for like now. When 750LT comes along and smashes 488 PISTA out of the park people will have a choice and premiums will soften from £100k

[DeltaOne]

RamboLambo said:

List price to list undoubtedly yes and always will be but surely not at that level above. I kind of get a premium on 458 speciale as the last N/A V8 Ferrari but 488 being turbocharged has lost something for me and is right up against McLaren like for like now. When 750LT comes along and smashes 488 PISTA out of the park people will have a choice and premiums will soften from £100k

I think that's applying more logic to the market than exists .

675LT is an incredible car, and made in limited numbers, but trades under list. 458 Speciale was not limited (albeit was n/a as you say) and trades over list, with the Aperta multiples over list. I think the badge will always drive residuals (as long as the car itself is good obviously), and that Ferrari is in a league on one in this respect (rightly or wrongly), and that in the case of McLaren they'll continue to be held back a little while they sort out themselves out from a branding/constantly upgrading/irritating customers perspective.

[bertie]

As I’ve said before, they’re all good cars, take your pick and enjoy.

I don’t understand the need to constantly be on bashing one car over another

[WDISMYL]

bertie said:

As I’ve said before, they’re all good cars, take your pick and enjoy.

I don’t understand the need to constantly be on bashing one car over another

And I don’t understand your inability to accept basic human nature!

By definition the brands are in competition. They each believe they offer the best “package” otherwise they might as well “pack their bags” and go home . When a customer has made a purchase by definition they have concluded that the brand they have chosen is the best amongst the potential brand offerings. And therefore by definition human nature dictates that a proportion of them will feel the need to justify that decision! What’s not to understand? Football fans are another example. It shouldn’t upset you. It’s an evolutionary mechanism that will probably always be with us!

There are also those who don’t have to make a choice and buy from all brands simultaneously! They have a reason not to understand! And I see by your garage that you do have a reason not to understand! So I take it back!

Edited by WDISMYL on Wednesday 14th March 19:35

Edited by WDISMYL on Wednesday 14th March 19:44

[boxerTen]

TurboTerrific9 said:

traxx said:

No doubt in years to come academics will use the Pista as an example of outstanding marketing

Unless the economy crashes Ferrari look unstoppable as a company in the near term - building higher and higher margin cars where demand exceeds supply

whilst building more cars.... can't imagine how this might end...

There has been a structural change in the supercar economy. I remember when Lamborghini made one car per week and Aston struggled to sell just twice that. Now McLaren can pop up and sell thousands, and a handful of low volume manufacturers (Pagani, Bugatti, Koenigsegg) find buyers at stratospheric prices that would have been unthinkable a generation ago.

[RamboLambo]

Obviously Ferrari is the strongest brand and in a world where there are seemingly more and more people who can access these supercars they have the biggest pull.
At the end of the day its about basic economics of supply and demand.

What would be a really interesting exercise though would be to take 2 products and swap the badges. Would the desirability of a 720S shoot up if it had a prancing horse badge on the bonnet

If money is not the number 1 driver and you can see past the badge I'm sure peoples choices would be remarkably different. I buy what I consider to be the best car for ME, I don't buy a badge and I'm not brand loyal. I just buy what I think is the best car on the market at the time for my own circumstances as do the majority of people I guess.
I would hate to being tied to a particular brand and potentially inferior product purely for financial aspects.

Anyway I don't know why we are even talking about a 488 PISTA when I've yet to come across anyone who actually qualifies to buy one

[rs200evo]

bertie said:

I wonder if I will be able to pick up a 1k miles Pista with a £30k discount?

https://www.pistonheads.com/regulars/ph-spottedyky...

You can pick up a 1k miles 488 with a £20k discount which is a fairer comparison.

I'm sure when the 750LT or whatever it's going to be called is announced, they will be highly sought after. The market is now heavily biased unfortunately to lightweight special editions, unfortunately by owners more interested in value than anything else :/

Not like the old days when manufacturers sold them in tiny numbers as there were very few buyers! I even remember my Diablo SV was cheaper as it was only 2WD and the interior was stripped out Still seems logical.....

[Camlet]

RamboLambo said:

Obviously Ferrari is the strongest brand and in a world where there are seemingly more and more people who can access these supercars they have the biggest pull.
At the end of the day its about basic economics of supply and demand.

What would be a really interesting exercise though would be to take 2 products and swap the badges. Would the desirability of a 720S shoot up if it had a prancing horse badge on the bonnet

If money is not the number 1 driver and you can see past the badge I'm sure peoples choices would be remarkably different. I buy what I consider to be the best car for ME, I don't buy a badge and I'm not brand loyal. I just buy what I think is the best car on the market at the time for my own circumstances as do the majority of people I guess.
I would hate to being tied to a particular brand and potentially inferior product purely for financial aspects.

Anyway I don't know why we are even talking about a 488 PISTA when I've yet to come across anyone who actually qualifies to buy one

As you say, Ferrari is one of the most powerful, glamorous brands in the world. Not just autos either, in terms of brand salience it easily sits alongside the likes of Apple and Disney.

Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.

Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.

McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.

To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?

Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).

Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.

But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.

VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.

It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.

[AndStilliRise]

Camlet said:

As you say, Ferrari is one of the most powerful, glamorous brands in the world. Not just autos either, in terms of brand salience it easily sits alongside the likes of Apple and Disney.

Supply and Demand is a key item but the nature of Ferrari's power as a brand has little to do with economics.

Dr Stephen King (the advertising planning guru not the horror writer) defined decades ago what comprises a "powerbrand". He said a powerbrand has outstanding functional benefits wrapped by outstanding non functional values. Not one or the other, both are essential.

McLaren build great cars but in terms of non functional values, McLaren is weak, I would argue very weak. That's not surprising from where they started and there's no question it's achieved excellent results in a short time. But as a brand power they are massively behind Ferrari. That's why brand salience for McLaren is modest. True enthusiasts love it and that's great, and I sincerely commend your approach. But so long as Ferrari builds great cars, it will continue to exert incredible brand power.

To be clear non functional values have nothing to do with performance or build. It is the irrational stuff you call ''the badge'' except it is much more than just a badge. Why does Apple sit as the largest company on the planet with a market cap of 888 billion dollars? Is the iPone so much better than a Galaxy? Is Apple OS so much better than Android OS?

Samsung is like McLaren. Apple is like Ferrari (albeit the former has sold a well over a billion of its products).

Are Ferrari non functional values alone enough to justify the huge arguments over a non LE car? Absolutely not. Ferrari knows it must build sensational cars otherwise everyone will talk about the history in glowing terms but sales and stock price will tank.

But when Ferrari announce what looks like a sensational car, the brand's non functional values amplifies this by factor McLaren can only dream about. The P1 is an awesome car but the F50 is now on par in terms of value and heading north; the LaF is considerably more. One can argue about the stupidity of this in the comfort of this forum but in the real world I come back to the Apple vs Samsung example.

VWG has achieved amazing results with its group of powerbrands lead arguably by Porsche. Under VWG's wing, Lamborghini, Bentley and Bugatti have all flourished. I think Porsche is the closest to the brand power of Ferrari, the frenzy over the 911R being a case in point.

It's quite possible the Pista's 0-200 km/per hour will be beaten by a McLaren. The reality is Ferrari doesn't need to build the fastest, the Pista merely needs to be sensational. Because Ferrari's bragging rights include 70 glorious years of racing heritage and some of the finest and sexiest road cars ever made. The Pista will sell like hot cakes, options will add probably 75K to the base price and residuals will be granite like compared to its nearest rivals.

Good read, Power Brand, need to learn more!