355: On the precipice

[ANOpax]

Bispal said:

There is no way you can run a 355 for £500 pa unless you are a mechanic and do everything yourself or don't do anything. Every respected Indy charges between £2 - £2.5k for an engine out every 3 years and that's without any of the extras. Every service I had was over £2k. These cars eat alternators and they are £300 refurbished with fitting on top. I went through 3 in 12 months! And then there is the service where you need 'Ferrari Grease' smeared on your flywheel at £50 per finger smear! I suspect you were very, very lucky and perhaps it wasn't an independent but a local garage doing an oil and filter change and nothing preventative.

I think my indy would be rather insulted if someone accused him of being a 'local garage doing an oil and filter change and nothing preventative.' It would be like accusing DKEng or mototechnique of being a bunch of blokes with spanners.

You weren't to know but he is one of the most respected in Europe, particularly in the 'oldtimer' classics. In some cases, Ferrari consult him for advice. He undertakes full restorations and past work includes a 365 GTB/4 prototype, 330 TR, 288GTO, 365 BB, 250 TDF and 250 PF.

He also does maintenance and race prep for classics as well as modern things like F40s and F50s (he's also a qualified Nurburgring instructor).
He has all the Ferrari diagnostic equipment for anything outside the 7yr service plans.

He's known locally as 'The Maranello of the North'

My F355 had been maintained and serviced by him before I bought it so perhaps that's why it was in such good fettle.

Did I get lucky or did I choose well? I'd like to think that by choosing well, I minimised the amount of luck I would need and that's how it turned out.

Here’s a post restoration picture of the 250PF engine bay. I think it’s fair to say he knows his way around Ferraris.

Edited by ANOpax on Wednesday 26th February 16:37

[MDL111]

355s are certainly not cheap to run, but hardly any older Ferrari is - to put this into perspective, below the invoices from my 430 during the first 24ish months of ownership (in warranty I might add) and the car was not driven during winter due to salt on the roads, so it is more like 12 months


Windscreen, front brake pads, Challenge geo - 6,500 Euros
Brake pads, exhaust silencer - 5,800 Euros
Tyres - 1,500 Euros
annual service, manifolds, exhaust silencer - 12,600 Euros
big service - I think - c. 3,500 Euros (can't find the invoice)

[Cactussed]

For reference, if you're prepared to get your hands dirty, a timing belt kit (belts, bearings) and a service kit is well under £1k all-in.
And oil and filter every year is buttons.

What kills things is paying labour charges and F-tax on older parts that are unobtanium.

Still not a cheap exercise to run but they're one of the last cars you can really DIY and run for reasonable money, in my experience.
Plus, I get the satisfaction of knowing things have actually been done rather than just invoiced for (which I've experienced in the past).

[FezSpider]

Cactussed said:

For reference, if you're prepared to get your hands dirty, a timing belt kit (belts, bearings) and a service kit is well under £1k all-in.
And oil and filter every year is buttons.

What kills things is paying labour charges and F-tax on older parts that are unobtanium.

Still not a cheap exercise to run but they're one of the last cars you can really DIY and run for reasonable money, in my experience.
Plus, I get the satisfaction of knowing things have actually been done rather than just invoiced for (which I've experienced in the past).

Spot on mate.
If we were talking about an old E-type, 70/80s Porsche 911 or even the once un loved 246 Dino, no one would bat an eye at fixing or building it your self as many did over the decades/years of ownership. Some thing happens when it comes to a 90s ferrari, some think ferrari tecs are produced in a special place in the hills of Maranello. With the cars produced in a mystical way that they have engines un like any other engines produced
Over the years we have all heard the horror storys from both dealers and specialists. Things like sump plugs being loose, engi e bay panels missing and even wheels falling of. Not to mention cars catching fires after major services because the specialist messed up. Did I hear that F40 that burned last week just pulled out of a dealer in monaco? Is that correct?
The thing with knowing your own machines is that like my self on yearly trips to lemans and then drive down the passes into Italy for a week. I never fear in doing it because I know my own car and can easily fix any issues that arise. Were as the average 355 drivers arse would flutter if they took it out side there own village
I remember one guy at lemans who had a 360, his front brakes were squealing badly. I took a look through the wheel for him and noticed it had gravel lodged in the caliper. I offerd to take his wheel of and clear it for him with the tools I always take with me when touring europe, simple quick job. However he insisted on calling this sports car garage just out side lemans for it to be trailerd to the work shop. 4-5 hundred euros later and a day wasted he felt better because he had another bill from a garage to put in his file

Edited by FezSpider on Wednesday 26th February 20:32

[67Dino]

FezSpider said:

...The thing with knowing your own machines is that like my self on yearly trips to lemans and then drive down the passes into Italy for a week. I never fear in doing it because I know my own car and can easily fix any issues that arise....

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

[Chris355]

67Dino said:

FezSpider said:

...The thing with knowing your own machines is that like my self on yearly trips to lemans and then drive down the passes into Italy for a week. I never fear in doing it because I know my own car and can easily fix any issues that arise....

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

The difficulty with diy on a Ferrari (or any car) is that the owner might be the best engineer or mechanic on the plant but you have no way of knowing that and then an even harder job proving it when you come to sell it. At least with a dealer or specialist they have a reputation (and probably a good few reviews that can you explored) which provides a buyer with a little more evidential certainty the job has been done with some degree of professionalism.

[anonymous-user]

Chris355 said:

67Dino said:

FezSpider said:

...The thing with knowing your own machines is that like my self on yearly trips to lemans and then drive down the passes into Italy for a week. I never fear in doing it because I know my own car and can easily fix any issues that arise....

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

The difficulty with diy on a Ferrari (or any car) is that the owner might be the best engineer or mechanic on the plant but you have no way of knowing that and then an even harder job proving it when you come to sell it. At least with a dealer or specialist they have a reputation (and probably a good few reviews that can you explored) which provides a buyer with a little more evidential certainty the job has been done with some degree of professionalism.

Still a lot to be saved by doing the simple jobs yourself though, instead of handing the car to a dealer to salivate over. Take MDL111's costs above

MDL111 said:

....

Windscreen, front brake pads, Challenge geo - 6,500 Euros
Brake pads, exhaust silencer - 5,800 Euros

....

Now I do a lot of the boggo jobs on my F430 myself and then it goes to DKEng for it's annual. Have done the work above but at very different costs:

New windscreen from Eurospares - £1,200 plus £150 for fitting
Brake pads - quick and easy job to do yourself - £250 an axle
Geometry at Blackboots - £320
OEM sports exhaust from Dick Lovett parts sales - £1,600. Fitted it myself.
Total cost £3,770 vs MDL111's €12,300

Each to their own but investing some time into the car as opposed to just money can save a lot - and it's hugely enjoyable and rewarding.

[browngt3]

Good thread this! As a soon to be owner of my first classic Ferrari, a 308 QV, its interesting to see how owners of its younger sibling get on.

Like most, it seems, I have neither the knowledge, time or space to maintain these cars myself. However, I do take a close interest in the mechanics and would love to be able to do some of the jobs myself.

It does look like a 355 is particularly expensive to maintain out of the Classic Ferrari V8's. I'm guessing the more modern cars will be ridiculously pricey to look after once they're out of Ferrari's service plan and warranty period.

[classicaholic]

browngt3 said:

Good thread this! As a soon to be owner of my first classic Ferrari, a 308 QV, its interesting to see how owners of its younger sibling get on.

Like most, it seems, I have neither the knowledge, time or space to maintain these cars myself. However, I do take a close interest in the mechanics and would love to be able to do some of the jobs myself.

It does look like a 355 is particularly expensive to maintain out of the Classic Ferrari V8's. I'm guessing the more modern cars will be ridiculously pricey to look after once they're out of Ferrari's service plan and warranty period.

I think the 308 & 328 were the last cars that could easily be serviced by non professional engineers apart from basics like oil and brake pads etc.

[67Dino]

classicaholic said:

browngt3 said:

Good thread this! As a soon to be owner of my first classic Ferrari, a 308 QV, its interesting to see how owners of its younger sibling get on.

Like most, it seems, I have neither the knowledge, time or space to maintain these cars myself. However, I do take a close interest in the mechanics and would love to be able to do some of the jobs myself.

It does look like a 355 is particularly expensive to maintain out of the Classic Ferrari V8's. I'm guessing the more modern cars will be ridiculously pricey to look after once they're out of Ferrari's service plan and warranty period.

I think the 308 & 328 were the last cars that could easily be serviced by non professional engineers apart from basics like oil and brake pads etc.

True. But then on the downside you’re dealing with a 40 year old car with the build quality of a late 70s and early 80s Fiat, where parts availability is not always brilliant...

[MDL111]

thecook101 said:

Chris355 said:

67Dino said:

FezSpider said:

...The thing with knowing your own machines is that like my self on yearly trips to lemans and then drive down the passes into Italy for a week. I never fear in doing it because I know my own car and can easily fix any issues that arise....

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

The difficulty with diy on a Ferrari (or any car) is that the owner might be the best engineer or mechanic on the plant but you have no way of knowing that and then an even harder job proving it when you come to sell it. At least with a dealer or specialist they have a reputation (and probably a good few reviews that can you explored) which provides a buyer with a little more evidential certainty the job has been done with some degree of professionalism.

Still a lot to be saved by doing the simple jobs yourself though, instead of handing the car to a dealer to salivate over. Take MDL111's costs above

MDL111 said:

....

Windscreen, front brake pads, Challenge geo - 6,500 Euros
Brake pads, exhaust silencer - 5,800 Euros

....

Now I do a lot of the boggo jobs on my F430 myself and then it goes to DKEng for it's annual. Have done the work above but at very different costs:

New windscreen from Eurospares - £1,200 plus £150 for fitting
Brake pads - quick and easy job to do yourself - £250 an axle
Geometry at Blackboots - £320
OEM sports exhaust from Dick Lovett parts sales - £1,600. Fitted it myself.
Total cost £3,770 vs MDL111's €12,300

Each to their own but investing some time into the car as opposed to just money can save a lot - and it's hugely enjoyable and rewarding.

Without a doubt it can be done a lot cheaper - just wanted to outline that even a newer car can can cost quite a bit if going to a main dealer. How it took them 11 or 12 hours to fit a windscreen is still a mystery to me (as is needing 2 exhaust back boxes within 10k km)

[cgt2]

67Dino said:

True. But then on the downside you’re dealing with a 40 year old car with the build quality of a late 70s and early 80s Fiat, where parts availability is not always brilliant...

My 308 was far cheaper to maintain than a 355, the biggest expense was getting the carbs tuned right. Had it been a QV it would have cost peanuts as brakes, tyres and consumables were cheap. The 328 cost was similar to running a modern large Merc. Less electronics made them easy for any competent mechanic to work on, in fact now I think of it my friendly Porsche indie did quite a few jobs for me.

[Cactussed]

67Dino said:

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

Ha.
I loved my MR2 turbo and spannered a bit on that as well.
My 2c is that the 355 is designed to come apart periodically so is well designed (comparatively) on the front.
Takes me about 5 hours to remove the engine on my own, start to finish.

If you fancy learning, buying an older car and messing about isn't a bad shout, or something like a caterham.

That said, they're all quite logical so back yourself and have a go!

The only thing which always stumps me is the wires with the magic smoke (ie electrics)...

[67Dino]

Cactussed said:

67Dino said:

You’re very much living my dream FezSpider. Would really love to build up the skills and experience you’ve got, and do some of my own maintenance. Suspect like lots of owners, lack of time to learn and do it got in the way.

Now that I’m travelling a bit less, plan is to get something a bit cheaper than a Ferrari that I can begin to learn some basics on. Would rather take a spanner to a tatty MR2 than a pricey 355, given the potential cost of screwing up!

Ha.
I loved my MR2 turbo and spannered a bit on that as well.
My 2c is that the 355 is designed to come apart periodically so is well designed (comparatively) on the front.
Takes me about 5 hours to remove the engine on my own, start to finish.

If you fancy learning, buying an older car and messing about isn't a bad shout, or something like a caterham.

That said, they're all quite logical so back yourself and have a go!

The only thing which always stumps me is the wires with the magic smoke (ie electrics)...

Thanks Cactussed. Ironically, the one thing I do feel reasonably confident about is electrics, albeit am sure I can blow fuses like the best of them.

It’s the oily bits that worry me, especially the ones with some special spacing/aligning/tensioning required that no one tells you about, and need a meter/tool to get remotely right. Or anything that is easy to undo, but then goes ‘sproing’ and all the bits pop out and cannot be put back without knowing the order and having the equipment to do it.

[browngt3]

Finally got round to listening to Chris Harris 's podcast with Martin Brundle. Interesting that Brundle identifies the F355 manual Berlinetta as one of his favourite cars that he's owned. Think he's owned and driven a lot of cars over the years so high praise indeed.

Here's the link if anyone's interested. It's a great listen

https://youtu.be/6c6faf2FrEY