What will the next battleground for exotics be?
Discussion
Historically it looks like the supercar market goes in 15-20 year cycles where a different generation of cars competes over certain metrics.
In the past 15 years we have clearly been in a raw performance market, where manufacturers’ primary focus seems to have been ever quicker 0-60s, lap times, etc.
It’s personal opinion, but for me this is now getting a bit stale, and is making supercars feel more and more samey. Even as a fan, I’d struggle to tell the names of about 50% of them. In addition, now that sub 3 second 0-60 times are becoming standard, I would assume there’s not much further they can go down this road (are 1 second cars really usable or desirable? There must come a point where we move past driver capabilities).
Therefore my question is - assuming we’re entering a new era - what will the new competition factors be?
What I’d like to see:
- Much more emphasis on unique and beautiful design. Moving away from letting wind tunnels being the designers and back to the ethos that delivered such diverse cars as the Countach, Dino, 80s 911s, F355, Miura, etc. Performance would drop fractionally (to “mere” sub 4 second 0-60s), but the market would become more diverse and interesting.
- Higher emphasis on specific driving experience. I.e. thinking about things like higher rev ranges, no power steering, etc. Anything to make each car feel more singular and have more character.
Not sure this will happen, but I’d like it.
Any other opinions on what the next generation will be all about?
In the past 15 years we have clearly been in a raw performance market, where manufacturers’ primary focus seems to have been ever quicker 0-60s, lap times, etc.
It’s personal opinion, but for me this is now getting a bit stale, and is making supercars feel more and more samey. Even as a fan, I’d struggle to tell the names of about 50% of them. In addition, now that sub 3 second 0-60 times are becoming standard, I would assume there’s not much further they can go down this road (are 1 second cars really usable or desirable? There must come a point where we move past driver capabilities).
Therefore my question is - assuming we’re entering a new era - what will the new competition factors be?
What I’d like to see:
- Much more emphasis on unique and beautiful design. Moving away from letting wind tunnels being the designers and back to the ethos that delivered such diverse cars as the Countach, Dino, 80s 911s, F355, Miura, etc. Performance would drop fractionally (to “mere” sub 4 second 0-60s), but the market would become more diverse and interesting.
- Higher emphasis on specific driving experience. I.e. thinking about things like higher rev ranges, no power steering, etc. Anything to make each car feel more singular and have more character.
Not sure this will happen, but I’d like it.
Any other opinions on what the next generation will be all about?
In a roundabout way I largely agree.
Who cares if the new hypercar does 250 or 280mph? You wont take it past 130 on the motorway.
Who cares if 0-60 happens in 1.8 or 2.1 seconds? Your tyres aren't warm enough and the road surface isn't corerctly prepared so you'll never do it no matter how hard you try.
Performance metrics and chasing ever more ridiculous numbers is following the ethos of the supercar, it has to be spectacular and it has to be theatrical, but usable horsepower and an adjustable chassis is going to be the next big thing - look at how the GT3RS morphed into the 911R - its slower but its more fun. The emphaisis is going to shift toward fun, engaging drives that leave lasting memories. This emphasis will be pushed as a 'last hurrah' before the mandatory electrification.
Manual boxes and less downforce and less tyre grip - think about Chris Harris video of the AMG Merc sliding around on 4x spacesavers - its all going to become very focused on involvement and feedback and fun.
Who cares if the new hypercar does 250 or 280mph? You wont take it past 130 on the motorway.
Who cares if 0-60 happens in 1.8 or 2.1 seconds? Your tyres aren't warm enough and the road surface isn't corerctly prepared so you'll never do it no matter how hard you try.
Performance metrics and chasing ever more ridiculous numbers is following the ethos of the supercar, it has to be spectacular and it has to be theatrical, but usable horsepower and an adjustable chassis is going to be the next big thing - look at how the GT3RS morphed into the 911R - its slower but its more fun. The emphaisis is going to shift toward fun, engaging drives that leave lasting memories. This emphasis will be pushed as a 'last hurrah' before the mandatory electrification.
Manual boxes and less downforce and less tyre grip - think about Chris Harris video of the AMG Merc sliding around on 4x spacesavers - its all going to become very focused on involvement and feedback and fun.
When I drove an F12 for the first time 8 years ago (and an Aventador around the same time though the gearbox was not as good) I did not think it was possible for any more performance to be usable on public roads. Here we are in 2020 with even more clogged roads, more traffic and a 911 Turbo that accelerates like a superbike/F1 car.
At some point the numbers cease to mean anything.
At some point the numbers cease to mean anything.
OP - highly relevant question , and I note that you have :
1) used the term ''exotics''
2) spoken about the ''driving experience ''
I think that for cars today to be engaging and usable ( and therefore fun , and not just garage ornaments respectively ) they need to be :
- narrow
- lightweight
- manual transmission
- naturally aspirated , both for linearity of response , and sound
- high revving
- low ( yes , I do mean low ) grip to power&torque ratios - wide tyres look lovely , but the huge grip they generate mean that they never let go at modest speeds , and when they do finally let go , you are doing ridiculously high speeds , so it tends to happen very suddenly
- good , but not necessarily very high , torque-to-weight and power-to-weight ratios
- more important that the ttw and ptw , is the way the torque and power are delivered , ie examine the torque and power curves
- the sound the car makes , and when and where in the rev range it screams/ roars
- reliability - nothing more frustrating than being stranded on the roadside while passers-by coo about how lovely the car looks .
- and of course the looks
- not immediately relevant , the cost : the reality is that the higher the cost ,the less inclined one is to explore the limits - some might say otherwise , but the reality is the reality ( at least for the very vast majority of us ) .
An immaculate 10 year old 189 bhp ( 7800rpm ) / 133 lb-ft ( 6800 rpm ) Toyota engined ( rev limit at 8500) , absolutely factory standard except for a bespoke 2bular exhaust , 860 Kg Lotus Elise S3 R ---- any takers ?
1) used the term ''exotics''
2) spoken about the ''driving experience ''
I think that for cars today to be engaging and usable ( and therefore fun , and not just garage ornaments respectively ) they need to be :
- narrow
- lightweight
- manual transmission
- naturally aspirated , both for linearity of response , and sound
- high revving
- low ( yes , I do mean low ) grip to power&torque ratios - wide tyres look lovely , but the huge grip they generate mean that they never let go at modest speeds , and when they do finally let go , you are doing ridiculously high speeds , so it tends to happen very suddenly
- good , but not necessarily very high , torque-to-weight and power-to-weight ratios
- more important that the ttw and ptw , is the way the torque and power are delivered , ie examine the torque and power curves
- the sound the car makes , and when and where in the rev range it screams/ roars
- reliability - nothing more frustrating than being stranded on the roadside while passers-by coo about how lovely the car looks .
- and of course the looks
- not immediately relevant , the cost : the reality is that the higher the cost ,the less inclined one is to explore the limits - some might say otherwise , but the reality is the reality ( at least for the very vast majority of us ) .
An immaculate 10 year old 189 bhp ( 7800rpm ) / 133 lb-ft ( 6800 rpm ) Toyota engined ( rev limit at 8500) , absolutely factory standard except for a bespoke 2bular exhaust , 860 Kg Lotus Elise S3 R ---- any takers ?
Edited by carspath on Sunday 8th March 22:22
Edited by carspath on Sunday 8th March 22:24
carspath said:
OP - highly relevant question , and I note that you have :
1) used the term ''exotics''
2) spoken about the ''driving experience ''
I think that for cars today to be engaging and usable ( and therefore fun , and not just garage ornaments respectively ) they need to be :
- narrow
- lightweight
- manual transmission
- naturally aspirated , both for linearity of response , and sound
- high revving
- low ( yes , I do mean low ) grip to power&torque ratios - wide tyres look lovely , but the huge grip they generate mean that they never let go at modest speeds , and when they do finally let go , you are doing ridiculously high speeds , so it tends to happen very suddenly
- good , but not necessarily very high , torque-to-weight and power-to-weight ratios
- more important that the ttw and ptw , is the way the torque and power are delivered , ie examine the torque and power curves
- the sound the car makes , and when and where in the rev range it screams/ roars
- reliability - nothing more frustrating than being stranded on the roadside while passers-by coo about how lovely the car looks .
- and of course the looks
- not immediately relevant , the cost : the reality is that the higher the cost ,the less inclined one is to explore the limits - some might say otherwise , but the reality is the reality ( at least for the very vast majority of us ) .
An immaculate 10 year old 189 bhp ( 7800rpm ) / 133 lb-ft ( 6800 rpm ) Toyota engined ( rev limit at 8500) , absolutely factory standard except for a bespoke 2bular exhaust , 860 Kg Lotus Elise S3 R ---- any takers ?
Great response.1) used the term ''exotics''
2) spoken about the ''driving experience ''
I think that for cars today to be engaging and usable ( and therefore fun , and not just garage ornaments respectively ) they need to be :
- narrow
- lightweight
- manual transmission
- naturally aspirated , both for linearity of response , and sound
- high revving
- low ( yes , I do mean low ) grip to power&torque ratios - wide tyres look lovely , but the huge grip they generate mean that they never let go at modest speeds , and when they do finally let go , you are doing ridiculously high speeds , so it tends to happen very suddenly
- good , but not necessarily very high , torque-to-weight and power-to-weight ratios
- more important that the ttw and ptw , is the way the torque and power are delivered , ie examine the torque and power curves
- the sound the car makes , and when and where in the rev range it screams/ roars
- reliability - nothing more frustrating than being stranded on the roadside while passers-by coo about how lovely the car looks .
- and of course the looks
- not immediately relevant , the cost : the reality is that the higher the cost ,the less inclined one is to explore the limits - some might say otherwise , but the reality is the reality ( at least for the very vast majority of us ) .
An immaculate 10 year old 189 bhp ( 7800rpm ) / 133 lb-ft ( 6800 rpm ) Toyota engined ( rev limit at 8500) , absolutely factory standard except for a bespoke 2bular exhaust , 860 Kg Lotus Elise S3 R ---- any takers ?
Edited by carspath on Sunday 8th March 22:22
Edited by carspath on Sunday 8th March 22:24
Yeah I intentionally said “exotics” because that seems a bit less pure performance oriented — however I am still talking about brands like Ferrari etc.
There are lots of cool cheaper specialist drivers’ cars (like the 4c or Elise), but I’d like to see some of this thinking extend up the price range.
cgt2 said:
When I drove an F12 for the first time 8 years ago (and an Aventador around the same time though the gearbox was not as good) I did not think it was possible for any more performance to be usable on public roads. Here we are in 2020 with even more clogged roads, more traffic and a 911 Turbo that accelerates like a superbike/F1 car.
At some point the numbers cease to mean anything.
the f12 is still extremely stupidly fast imoAt some point the numbers cease to mean anything.
There's a lot going on with all this stuff about electric etc. I suspect most car makers have their hands full with that and trying to keep up with edicts that coming out of governments.
If, as currently seems likely, electric is the future (whether or not it is actually the all round best option) then where does that leave the likes of Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. How do you differentiate one electric powered vehicle from another to still have a "supercar"? So much of the interest for me is in the noise and the mechanical elements that go into the engine. "My battery's bigger than yours" doesn't hold much allure. Or perhaps it will for Greta's chums. Would you buy an all-electric supercar and, if so, what will determine which you buy?
If, as currently seems likely, electric is the future (whether or not it is actually the all round best option) then where does that leave the likes of Ferrari, Lamborghini etc. How do you differentiate one electric powered vehicle from another to still have a "supercar"? So much of the interest for me is in the noise and the mechanical elements that go into the engine. "My battery's bigger than yours" doesn't hold much allure. Or perhaps it will for Greta's chums. Would you buy an all-electric supercar and, if so, what will determine which you buy?
Next generation will be much faster (in a straight line) but worse to drive in terms of fun and pleasure.
Simply because they will be early generation hybrids. Heavier than current gen, smaller engines, but great torque off the line and great for a couple of laps whilst the battery lasts.
These will also be rapidly "obsolete", in that significant improvements will come each year.
Best buy our last of their kind NA V12's and non hybrid turbo V8's now
Simply because they will be early generation hybrids. Heavier than current gen, smaller engines, but great torque off the line and great for a couple of laps whilst the battery lasts.
These will also be rapidly "obsolete", in that significant improvements will come each year.
Best buy our last of their kind NA V12's and non hybrid turbo V8's now
As you say that past a performnce level it all becomes irrelevant so I think the metrics will be
MPG and generally how clean tech they are
Connectivity, automation, "smartness"
Changeability via programming i.e it can be programmed to drive like a daliy and then be super car (ala TESLA)
Weight and advances in battery tech to make cars lighter as well as fast charging
Design
... all very anodyne if you ask me
In London you already have to pay £12.50 to move your "supercar" if it is before 2007 and that will only go up and the adoption will become wider
Enjoy what you can while you can and don't keep the super cars stored up to keep the low mileage as parking them up for good may be enforced in the near future ...
MPG and generally how clean tech they are
Connectivity, automation, "smartness"
Changeability via programming i.e it can be programmed to drive like a daliy and then be super car (ala TESLA)
Weight and advances in battery tech to make cars lighter as well as fast charging
Design
... all very anodyne if you ask me
In London you already have to pay £12.50 to move your "supercar" if it is before 2007 and that will only go up and the adoption will become wider
Enjoy what you can while you can and don't keep the super cars stored up to keep the low mileage as parking them up for good may be enforced in the near future ...
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