Converting an F430 auto to manual
Discussion
Muzzer79 said:
I'm not a Ferrari owner either but, providing this is done correctly, is this not a little like converting your 2000's Aston Martin Vanquish to a manual?
i.e more desirable, if anything?
Early semi-auto cars were.....challenging, so I'm told. Providing the conversion isn't done by Greasy Graham in his railway-arches workshop, you get a manual car experience with no drawbacks?
I would expect it to be reversable and one should keep the original parts, just in case
I dream of a manual-converted 599......
...how about a factory original... i.e more desirable, if anything?
Early semi-auto cars were.....challenging, so I'm told. Providing the conversion isn't done by Greasy Graham in his railway-arches workshop, you get a manual car experience with no drawbacks?
I would expect it to be reversable and one should keep the original parts, just in case
I dream of a manual-converted 599......
The gated6 kits are $20k. Thats for the parts only. Labour, I suspect you are looking at maybe close on 10 grand, certainly at least 5k? Say 30k all in - GBP.
If you owned a rare model which had virtually no manual cars i.e 430, 599 etal then I think its possibly something you would get your money back over time. Maybe.
But the 360 - pointless IMHO.
Its also worth noting that not many of the parts are actual Ferrari parts. Thats because Ferrari wont sell them to you. So anyone who knows these cars well will know straight away its not factory manual.
I am sure as time goes on the kits will become cheaper, at that point it might be viable to do it for fun rather than something that might be an investment.
The issue in the long term is say a manual 430 is 200k and an F1 is 150k then the guy with 150k burning a hole in his pocket can probably find the extra 50k to get the manual IYSWIM.
Also, I think we are very slowly starting to see the F1 not being the "evil" thing it was once thought to be. I think in another 20 years it will actually be seen as something some people will actually seek out. Yes the manual will always be seen as OG sports cars but I think there will always be people who will want - or even need - the F1. In 10 years cars wont even have gearboxes.
If you owned a rare model which had virtually no manual cars i.e 430, 599 etal then I think its possibly something you would get your money back over time. Maybe.
But the 360 - pointless IMHO.
Its also worth noting that not many of the parts are actual Ferrari parts. Thats because Ferrari wont sell them to you. So anyone who knows these cars well will know straight away its not factory manual.
I am sure as time goes on the kits will become cheaper, at that point it might be viable to do it for fun rather than something that might be an investment.
The issue in the long term is say a manual 430 is 200k and an F1 is 150k then the guy with 150k burning a hole in his pocket can probably find the extra 50k to get the manual IYSWIM.
Also, I think we are very slowly starting to see the F1 not being the "evil" thing it was once thought to be. I think in another 20 years it will actually be seen as something some people will actually seek out. Yes the manual will always be seen as OG sports cars but I think there will always be people who will want - or even need - the F1. In 10 years cars wont even have gearboxes.
just yesterday I was thinking, I would quite like to own a 355 F1 to be able to experience the first F1 box (never driven a 355 F1), probably a GTS or even a spider [likely still not as much as a 355 manual, but enough that I am at least contemplating it, which I never did in the past]. I think for people who have access to manual cars, having one particular car as manual is not all that important - variety is the spice of life etc - and I am somebody who really loves manual cars and might well do a conversion on a car at some point (CS, 599, Murcielago roadster are the top candidates). Currently regularly drive a mix of manual, F1, DCT, automatic cars and all have their charms - it is a little like having engines with different cylinder counts or fwd/rwd/awd etc
In summary I would not do it to a car that was relatively easily available with a manual (unless I own the car already) - the cars I consider for it are either not available as manual or are substantially rarer and so much more expensive that I just can't afford the manual version
Edit: when I thought about a manual conversion, I spoke to AV Engineering who were very helpful - I would send my car to the UK to get it done by them if I move forward
In summary I would not do it to a car that was relatively easily available with a manual (unless I own the car already) - the cars I consider for it are either not available as manual or are substantially rarer and so much more expensive that I just can't afford the manual version
Edit: when I thought about a manual conversion, I spoke to AV Engineering who were very helpful - I would send my car to the UK to get it done by them if I move forward
Edited by MDL111 on Sunday 16th May 12:09
MDL111 said:
just to add to this - for a while I did not have a manual car and I missed it so much that I bought an RS Clio to have a manual again and then drove that prob. 10k km plus in the first year even taking it to commute via the Autobahn (it is not a fast car...)
Forgive me but that sounds a bit mad! Surely the Autobahn is the one place where the transmission is completely irrelevant? I'm assuming the rest of your commute must have made it seem like sense? A while ago I took the Autobahn from the Belgian border down to Italy (in a Ferrari) and I'm not sure I changed gear even once except when stopping for fuel.As an aside, we made great time but the journey really wasn't much fun and was very tiring. Basically driving in a straight line at high speed but having to keep concentrating all the time anticipating what the other traffic might do (although, in my experience, German drivers are generally very good at allowing for faster traffic)
jtremlett said:
MDL111 said:
just to add to this - for a while I did not have a manual car and I missed it so much that I bought an RS Clio to have a manual again and then drove that prob. 10k km plus in the first year even taking it to commute via the Autobahn (it is not a fast car...)
Forgive me but that sounds a bit mad! Surely the Autobahn is the one place where the transmission is completely irrelevant? I'm assuming the rest of your commute must have made it seem like sense? A while ago I took the Autobahn from the Belgian border down to Italy (in a Ferrari) and I'm not sure I changed gear even once except when stopping for fuel.As an aside, we made great time but the journey really wasn't much fun and was very tiring. Basically driving in a straight line at high speed but having to keep concentrating all the time anticipating what the other traffic might do (although, in my experience, German drivers are generally very good at allowing for faster traffic)
Speaking as someone who has manual converted their own F1 car (a 2005 612), and who has assisted in converting a host of other cars all round the world, then I feel well placed to dispel a bit of the myth around manual converting Ferrari's.
Firstly, all of the F1 cars were designed to be manual cars as well, so exactly as in the example of the M3 SMG conversion, the process is largely that of bolting on the correct manual parts in place of F1 parts. Some parts like insulation and trim pieces need access holes cut into them, however invariably the "lines" you need to cut along are already there. All the mounting brackets for pedals, master cylinder, hoses, whatever, are already there just waiting to be utilised. The only exception to this is the mounting location for the gear turret on 599's, which is integral to the chassis, and so needs to be retrofitted on F1 cars. Not a big deal though.
Secondly I can tell you that, in general terms, Ferrari don't give a crap who's buying the parts and whether they own a factory manual car. I've put in loads of orders for manual parts, and have never had any issues whatsoever. The only times where they will ask for a chassis number is when you're ordering interior trim pieces, as they need to be able to trace what the specific trim options were for that car. Again, hardly a show stopper given there are people out there collecting chassis numbers for manual cars. Just don't expect the conversion to be taken on by any authorised dealers any time soon. Believe me when I say that I have tried, but Ferrari do not want to support these conversions officially, though maybe they'll change that view one day if they see like with the AM Works Vanquish conversions, there is money to be made in doing authorised conversions.
With all of this said, availability of parts is a whole other matter. Numerous key pieces have been NLA for a long time, and are now trading hands for several times the official Ferrari price. Your choices therefore are to collect the parts needed over a long time by searching far and wide and just being patient, or ordering up a conversion kit from the likes of EAG accepting that various parts will be reproductions. The quality of their early kits looked awful to me, but latterly the CNC stuff they've been making seems pretty decent. They will certainly do the job, and once installed will be functionally identical to a factory manual. You can always look to source genuine parts for the few visible items that aren't OEM. The management at EAG / Gated6 seems a bit of a s
t show however, in spite of the hard work of a few individuals, so you may still find there's a wait on getting the kit sent out.
The actual conversion itself isn't hard though - any Ferrari specialist should be able to complete it in <50 hours. ECU's need to get sent out for conversion too (AV would be the guys for that), and the instrument cluster needs configured to manual via an SD3/Leonardo/equivalent. 599's and 612's are a bit more tricky in this regard, but its all understood stuff now if you speak to the right people.
As for the value of a converted car... well the market hasn't yet been tested in the UK. In the US, there have been a few sales that have shown the converted cars to be worth significantly more than equivalent F1 cars. Will it be the same for the UK?... who knows. Simple thing is that its a cool thing that you can do that will transform the way you interact and experience your car. From the word go, I was always disappointed by the F1 transmission, especially when it comes to slow speed maneuvering. In the long term it may well be the case that the original F1 cars are worth more, but remember that (i) F1 cars are only going to get less reliable, and (ii) there will invariably always be more F1 cars available than manual cars.
Last week a low miles manual 599 sold for nearly $700k before auction fees. This is a markup of coming on half a million dollars on a comparable F1 car. No way then that there isn't someone out there that would pay a significant premium over an F1 car to still be able to get into a manual 599 for far less than a factory manual. The market may be narrow, but its definitely there.
Firstly, all of the F1 cars were designed to be manual cars as well, so exactly as in the example of the M3 SMG conversion, the process is largely that of bolting on the correct manual parts in place of F1 parts. Some parts like insulation and trim pieces need access holes cut into them, however invariably the "lines" you need to cut along are already there. All the mounting brackets for pedals, master cylinder, hoses, whatever, are already there just waiting to be utilised. The only exception to this is the mounting location for the gear turret on 599's, which is integral to the chassis, and so needs to be retrofitted on F1 cars. Not a big deal though.
Secondly I can tell you that, in general terms, Ferrari don't give a crap who's buying the parts and whether they own a factory manual car. I've put in loads of orders for manual parts, and have never had any issues whatsoever. The only times where they will ask for a chassis number is when you're ordering interior trim pieces, as they need to be able to trace what the specific trim options were for that car. Again, hardly a show stopper given there are people out there collecting chassis numbers for manual cars. Just don't expect the conversion to be taken on by any authorised dealers any time soon. Believe me when I say that I have tried, but Ferrari do not want to support these conversions officially, though maybe they'll change that view one day if they see like with the AM Works Vanquish conversions, there is money to be made in doing authorised conversions.
With all of this said, availability of parts is a whole other matter. Numerous key pieces have been NLA for a long time, and are now trading hands for several times the official Ferrari price. Your choices therefore are to collect the parts needed over a long time by searching far and wide and just being patient, or ordering up a conversion kit from the likes of EAG accepting that various parts will be reproductions. The quality of their early kits looked awful to me, but latterly the CNC stuff they've been making seems pretty decent. They will certainly do the job, and once installed will be functionally identical to a factory manual. You can always look to source genuine parts for the few visible items that aren't OEM. The management at EAG / Gated6 seems a bit of a s
t show however, in spite of the hard work of a few individuals, so you may still find there's a wait on getting the kit sent out.The actual conversion itself isn't hard though - any Ferrari specialist should be able to complete it in <50 hours. ECU's need to get sent out for conversion too (AV would be the guys for that), and the instrument cluster needs configured to manual via an SD3/Leonardo/equivalent. 599's and 612's are a bit more tricky in this regard, but its all understood stuff now if you speak to the right people.
As for the value of a converted car... well the market hasn't yet been tested in the UK. In the US, there have been a few sales that have shown the converted cars to be worth significantly more than equivalent F1 cars. Will it be the same for the UK?... who knows. Simple thing is that its a cool thing that you can do that will transform the way you interact and experience your car. From the word go, I was always disappointed by the F1 transmission, especially when it comes to slow speed maneuvering. In the long term it may well be the case that the original F1 cars are worth more, but remember that (i) F1 cars are only going to get less reliable, and (ii) there will invariably always be more F1 cars available than manual cars.
Last week a low miles manual 599 sold for nearly $700k before auction fees. This is a markup of coming on half a million dollars on a comparable F1 car. No way then that there isn't someone out there that would pay a significant premium over an F1 car to still be able to get into a manual 599 for far less than a factory manual. The market may be narrow, but its definitely there.
brogenville said:
Speaking as someone who has manual converted their own F1 car (a 2005 612), and who has assisted in converting a host of other cars all round the world, then I feel well placed to dispel a bit of the myth around manual converting Ferrari's.
Have you had any involvement in converting a California?I know from previous investigations that the mounting points etc are already in place, and there were a half-dozen or so OEM manual cars so the conversion should be doable....
To Del-
Yes, I have looked into converting a California. It’s an interesting mix of parts, but crucially the gearbox is unique to this car. I suspect that many people won’t believe me, but I didn’t believe it either until I spoke with the guys at Graziano who explained that it was indeed a very small run gearbox that they did for Ferrari. (Just imagine what Ferrari must have lost on each of those cars...). A complete gearbox from a crashed manual California came up around 18 months ago, and honestly I was tempted. In the end I chickened out, and I’m pretty sure that’s the same gearbox that Art at EAG ended up buying. Things have gone a bit quiet on that project though...
As for the declining reliability of F1 gearboxes, you only need to think about all the wearing and degrading parts in the F1 system- compared with a manual linkage there is easily 10X more things that can go wrong. A manual linkage isn’t going to degrade over time either even if it isn’t used, whereas on an F1, you have a gas filled accumulator that will deplete over time, a manifold with numerous solenoid valves all with seals that will degrade, and that’s not to speak of the potentiometers and other sensors. Then there’s the increased wear rate for F1 clutches compared with (the same clutch used in) manual cars. The good news is that there are people that can help with all of these things, and rebuilding F1 actuators is a fairly common thing now which can save you thousands on Ferrari prices for new parts.
Yes, I have looked into converting a California. It’s an interesting mix of parts, but crucially the gearbox is unique to this car. I suspect that many people won’t believe me, but I didn’t believe it either until I spoke with the guys at Graziano who explained that it was indeed a very small run gearbox that they did for Ferrari. (Just imagine what Ferrari must have lost on each of those cars...). A complete gearbox from a crashed manual California came up around 18 months ago, and honestly I was tempted. In the end I chickened out, and I’m pretty sure that’s the same gearbox that Art at EAG ended up buying. Things have gone a bit quiet on that project though...
As for the declining reliability of F1 gearboxes, you only need to think about all the wearing and degrading parts in the F1 system- compared with a manual linkage there is easily 10X more things that can go wrong. A manual linkage isn’t going to degrade over time either even if it isn’t used, whereas on an F1, you have a gas filled accumulator that will deplete over time, a manifold with numerous solenoid valves all with seals that will degrade, and that’s not to speak of the potentiometers and other sensors. Then there’s the increased wear rate for F1 clutches compared with (the same clutch used in) manual cars. The good news is that there are people that can help with all of these things, and rebuilding F1 actuators is a fairly common thing now which can save you thousands on Ferrari prices for new parts.
brogenville said:
As for the declining reliability of F1 gearboxes, you only need to think about all the wearing and degrading parts in the F1 system- compared with a manual linkage there is easily 10X more things that can go wrong. A manual linkage isn’t going to degrade over time either even if it isn’t used, whereas on an F1, you have a gas filled accumulator that will deplete over time, a manifold with numerous solenoid valves all with seals that will degrade, and that’s not to speak of the potentiometers and other sensors.
I recently had a seal fail on the F1 system in my F430, the fluid leaked out and got everywhere, plus it damaged some of the electrical components. The whole F1 system needed to be removed, torn down, cleaned up and refitted with some new internal components. The cost was several thousand pounds and the car ended up off the road for a couple of weeks. Had I had the whole actuator system replaced with a new one it would have been substantially more.Gassing Station | Ferrari V8 | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff