550 Maranello article - they'll be £200k before you know it!
Discussion
cayman-black said:
There is another coming soon if you don't mind silver.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2002-ferrari-5...
That’s a great colour combination and the last Ferrari where Daytona seat inserts worked imo. Alas I only want a manual and actually prefer the 550 looks-wise, so not for me https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2002-ferrari-5...
DKL said:
What do we think of the grey/red 550 manual at Justin Banks? 100k miles up which is going to be a problem for many and really could be when selling on 120 or so. About 25% cheaper than anything else on the market at 59k.
It look stunning.
He's been trying to sell that on and off for 2/3 years and hasn't got a hope in hell at that number.It look stunning.
It's a driver and a keeper as it's not something you're ever going to be able to sell on due the obsession in Ferrari world with the mileage.
Compare to this at a little over half the mileage:- https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2000-ferrari-5...
I quite like it. But in my view it's a £30,000 car. He won't sell it for that and I wouldn't either. Hence it's a driver and keeper.
Blow up the images and look at the panel gaps around the front off side wing, look at the interior, the boot seal/lining. The window isn't closing properly on the drivers door.
It's used and shows it's miles, but it will no doubt be an enjoyable car to run around in and enjoy as long it's reasonably mechanically sound, but it's a 100,000 mile Ferrari. It might as well be coming with a sachet of anthrax in the boot that's how off putting people find the mileage.
Edited by 21ATS on Monday 27th April 22:07
21ATS said:
powerstruggle said:
I'm I missing something here? Have they gained and now lost £100k+ in the space of 4-5 years?
Nope that about sums it up.The +£100K situation was irrational and investor driven.
You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
ferrisbueller said:
Yeah, no.
You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
I dunno, you pick as much sweetcorn as you like out of the current $hlt show but +£100K then -£100k over the not much more than the lifetime of this thread isn't far off reality. If we're generalising that is.You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
I saw some real scabby monsters go through auction and sell for far more than they should have as people simply got carried away on a diet of cheap credit and a never ending feeling of this being the new paradigm.
Well, it's all gone Pete Tong.
21ATS said:
ferrisbueller said:
Yeah, no.
You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
I dunno, you pick as much sweetcorn as you like out of the current $hlt show but +£100K then -£100k over the not much more than the lifetime of this thread isn't far off reality. If we're generalising that is.You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
I saw some real scabby monsters go through auction and sell for far more than they should have as people simply got carried away on a diet of cheap credit and a never ending feeling of this being the new paradigm.
Well, it's all gone Pete Tong.
How about 40k? No, that doesn't work either. Try 80k? Ah, no. Pick a number.
No.
And 575 F1s were IRO 60k at auction last September.
ferrisbueller said:
21ATS said:
powerstruggle said:
I'm I missing something here? Have they gained and now lost £100k+ in the space of 4-5 years?
Nope that about sums it up.The +£100K situation was irrational and investor driven.
You're trying to draw a line from the bottom of the market 8-10 years ago to a peak, where a very few may have been, and back to an imaginary bottom which doesn't exist. You're talking about the full extent of a hypothetical spread and trying to apply it to individual specific instances within that distribution. At best you're not comparing like for like.
I am pretty sure that I posted on this thread that the car is not rare enough imo to warrant the prices that people paid for them / the price increase (esp if you add 550 and 575 together) - and - to a degree - I exclude the mint 3k mile examples from that, as those have rarity going for them. For cars to stay at a high price / increase in price over time they need to be supported by the collector market as fewer and fewer “drivers” will buy them to use. IMO the 550 doesn’t really qualify, also because it has no use as a car for historic rallies and the like (unlike say a 2.7RS / various vintage 911s). I am also of the opinion that the 550 Barchetta is undervalued even at 2015 prices - so I probably don’t really know what I am talking about.
I will likely buy one eventually, (don’t think I can stretch to a Barchetta unfortunately), but to use as a summer daily driver, so mine will most definitely lose a ton of value (and cost a fortune in servicing) just as all my other cars do - not to bothered about it apart from a generally more theoretical interest in values. We will see where they settle long term
I bought my 550 in Jan 2014 from Nick Cartwright for £55k with 31k miles on, with the intention of never selling as it's my teenage poster car. It was in excellent condition, couple of very minor cosmetic issues which have now been sorted.
I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
john_1983 said:
I bought my 550 in Jan 2014 from Nick Cartwright for £55k with 31k miles on, with the intention of never selling as it's my teenage poster car. It was in excellent condition, couple of very minor cosmetic issues which have now been sorted.
I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
Dare I ask, has it loved up to the dream? Also my teenage poster car! I find some Ferrari's too overt but there is somethingabout the 550.I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
ferrisbueller said:
So 50k cars went up to 150k and are now 50k again?
How about 40k? No, that doesn't work either. Try 80k? Ah, no. Pick a number.
No.
And 575 F1s were IRO 60k at auction last September.
Note - we are discussing 550's here. The 575's followed their own value curve which was decisively split between F1 and manual.How about 40k? No, that doesn't work either. Try 80k? Ah, no. Pick a number.
No.
And 575 F1s were IRO 60k at auction last September.
Around 2015 was when the market hit it's most absurd.
Example:- 29,000 mile car - incomplete history but a nice and unusual colour combo. £150K
https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/142-1998-Ferra...
That's a £50k to £60K car today.
Same auction house 3 years previous:- 33,000 mile car £39k
https://www.handh.co.uk/auction/lot/15-1999-Ferrar...
That's a £50k to £60K car today.
So lets say 8 years rather than 5, but I still stand by approx +£100K minus £100k as a ballpark.
Or we use John's example above of £55K for a 31,000 mile car in Jan 14 and say 6ish years - 50-150-50 or thereabouts.
If you have any better examples of real world confirmed sales as opposed to asking prices (of 550's) feel free to add them.
This is a conversation after all, not a statement of absolute fact.
Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 28th April 10:20
john_1983 said:
I bought my 550 in Jan 2014 from Nick Cartwright for £55k with 31k miles on, with the intention of never selling as it's my teenage poster car. It was in excellent condition, couple of very minor cosmetic issues which have now been sorted.
I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
I think that calls for a picture John. I absolutely adore the 550 and now we're back at some sort of reality I will be finding one.I increased the insurance value over the next few years to £85k I think, in line with what it would likely cost to replace.
My car now has 51k miles on it, is probably in better condition than when I bought it, but yes it has dropped in value from the 2016/17 peak - probably now more or less equal to what I paid for it 6 years ago. Overall I couldn't care less, I bought it to drive it - the only thing that has ever concerned me about its value is having it properly insured.
Like you I've wanted a Maranello since they first came out.
ferrisbueller said:
Per above. I'm talking about 550s.
The 575 reference was with regard to the collectingcars results being cited as the end of the world.
I think the 575 was pretty representative of where things have been for a year or so and I still don't see it as particularly cheap.The 575 reference was with regard to the collectingcars results being cited as the end of the world.
There really has been a massive disparity between asking prices and selling prices for some time. Probably caused mostly by many of these cars being offered on SOR.
The only business that's been consistently selling at realisting prices is KPHC (aka The Ferrari Centre) for all models, not just 550 and 575's.
I don't know how you can make statements about private purchases and where I have insight I'm not going to put specifics on a forum. There are posters who keep detailed records on these cars but I don't think there will be a 100% accurate record anywhere.
Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
ferrisbueller said:
I don't know how you can make statements about private purchases and where I have insight I'm not going to put specifics on a forum. There are posters who keep detailed records on these cars but I don't think there will be a 100% accurate record anywhere.
Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
Lots of information on this thread - 5 years worth actually. Worldwide though so not UK specific. Throughout the thread actual sales are logged in real time. There's plenty of evidence if you're willing to look for it. Plus there's a member on here who also posts on FChat that keeps detailed recors of asking prices and where the cars are sold.Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/maranell...
21ATS said:
ferrisbueller said:
I don't know how you can make statements about private purchases and where I have insight I'm not going to put specifics on a forum. There are posters who keep detailed records on these cars but I don't think there will be a 100% accurate record anywhere.
Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
Lots of information on this thread - 5 years worth actually. Worldwide though so not UK specific. Throughout the thread actual sales are logged in real time. There's plenty of evidence if you're willing to look for it. Plus there's a member on here who also posts on FChat that keeps detailed recors of asking prices and where the cars are sold.Your spread would become more credible if you stated it in percentage terms rather than trying to dig in on the £100k.
Brexit shenanigans put a dent in things, the current situation adds another layer of uncertainty, with an impact which will grow with time, and there are a variety of reasons why someone might sell cheap but I don't think you'll see a large proportion of distressed sales. Especially relative to people exposed on moderns, which could be financed to the hilt.
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/maranell...
Other examples:
Forza are showing a 44k mile car sold at £76k. Even allowing for some haggle room, that car has not shed £100k.
Furlonger asking £105k for a TdF 34k mile car. That was never £205k. (What did the rare Manual 575s hit, £175k?, itself perhaps a doubling of where they had been).
In Europe, where the exchange rate impacts the delta over that period, then there's maybe a 15% offset but again no 100k Euro or GBP shift.
Of what's about at present the Ex-Clapton Barchetta at DK seems value at a sticker price of £285k
Edited by ferrisbueller on Tuesday 28th April 13:43
Well to ad a bit of context ( the details are in this post a cuple of hundred pages back)
I bought a LHD in 26k (miles) 2015 in the Netherlands for £40k and sold for 90k in 2017 now worth probably £60k
At the same time (roughly) I got offered £125k for my 355 which is probably worth, they could have offered £500k and I still wouldnt have sold !!
Phib
I bought a LHD in 26k (miles) 2015 in the Netherlands for £40k and sold for 90k in 2017 now worth probably £60k
At the same time (roughly) I got offered £125k for my 355 which is probably worth, they could have offered £500k and I still wouldnt have sold !!
Phib
ferrisbueller said:
I've followed this thread (and others) and I've followed the market in the UK and Europe for many years and continue to do so. I'm not sure what "evidence" I'm meant to be looking for. The +/- £100k simply isn't accurate. +100% would be nearer but is probably still too high. The minus is yet to be defined but the current advertised prices are indicating £80k as a starting point, excluding the high miler. These cars advertised at that price point never hit £180k.
Other examples:
Forza are showing a 44k mile car sold at £76k. Even allowing for some haggle room, that car has not shed £100k.
Furlonger asking £105k for a TdF 34k mile car. That was never £205k. (What did the rare Manual 575s hit, £175k?, itself perhaps a doubling of where they had been).
In Europe, where the exchange rate impacts the delta over that period, then there's maybe a 15% offset but again no 100k Euro or GBP shift.
Of what's about at present the Ex-Clapton Barchetta at DK seems value at a sticker price of £285k
If you take a look I've posted sale prices, not asking prices. Don't confuse the two. Other examples:
Forza are showing a 44k mile car sold at £76k. Even allowing for some haggle room, that car has not shed £100k.
Furlonger asking £105k for a TdF 34k mile car. That was never £205k. (What did the rare Manual 575s hit, £175k?, itself perhaps a doubling of where they had been).
In Europe, where the exchange rate impacts the delta over that period, then there's maybe a 15% offset but again no 100k Euro or GBP shift.
Of what's about at present the Ex-Clapton Barchetta at DK seems value at a sticker price of £285k
Edited by ferrisbueller on Tuesday 28th April 13:43
I've posted a £39K sale and £150K sale on two very similar vehicles. Actual sales.
The Forza288 Grigio Alloy car has been for sale for nearly 3 years. It looks like it's sold. But for what? Do you know? I don't. It could be £50K it could be £75K. Was that a £150K ever? May have been in 2015 if they'd wanted to sell it then, but it may not.
So we do know as fact that they were low at one time - as low as in the £30k/£40K range as we've seen from actual sales (one linked above) as far back as 2012/14 and earlier. Then they went up as high as £150K around 2015 as we've seen from actual sales (one linked above). Now there coming back down through the £60's and £50's - again actual sales (linked above a recent sale on Collecting Cars). They are probably still falling and will continue into next year I imagine.
So we're seeing an approximate £100K swing for vehicles around a similar mileage, spec and condition. That's not picking numbers from thin air - there are sales backing those numbers up.
What do want to see exactly? The very same exact car sold at three price points.
EDIT:- Why don't we just agree to disagree on this? I'm clearly seeing a £100K swing over a period of time and you're not. I can live with that if it ends this circular conversation.
Edited by 21ATS on Tuesday 28th April 14:21
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