Discussion
21ATS said:
Pretty strong for one lacking a pan roof and that spent its first 4 years doing god knows what.fflump said:
21ATS said:
Pretty strong for one lacking a pan roof and that spent its first 4 years doing god knows what.That bodes well having bought one this year. My intention is to keep mine long term but it's good to know I can get out for sensible money if life changed my plans.
It's an awful lot of car for the money still and there really is little like it on the market unless you want to pay for a Lusso. With only 200 or so FF's in the UK the good ones are only going to get more rare.
21ATS said:
fflump said:
21ATS said:
Pretty strong for one lacking a pan roof and that spent its first 4 years doing god knows what.That bodes well having bought one this year. My intention is to keep mine long term but it's good to know I can get out for sensible money if life changed my plans.
It's an awful lot of car for the money still and there really is little like it on the market unless you want to pay for a Lusso. With only 200 or so FF's in the UK the good ones are only going to get more rare.
Much better value IMO.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2018-ferrari-g...
fflump said:
21ATS said:
fflump said:
21ATS said:
Pretty strong for one lacking a pan roof and that spent its first 4 years doing god knows what.That bodes well having bought one this year. My intention is to keep mine long term but it's good to know I can get out for sensible money if life changed my plans.
It's an awful lot of car for the money still and there really is little like it on the market unless you want to pay for a Lusso. With only 200 or so FF's in the UK the good ones are only going to get more rare.
Much better value IMO.
https://collectingcars.com/for-sale/2018-ferrari-g...
But I see where you're coming from.
A V12 Lusso would likely have been another £30k-£40k
So I keep looking at something 'special'. I've a lovely lovely 993, which if listed would be one of the cleanest/most sorted on the market. value of circa 85k. having looked at 360's/355's/599's. I'm starting to think a FF might be the answer, Space for kiddies helps. values have remained fairly stable fro the past 2 years as I can see.
I've also got a 240z I'm rebuilding as a B road car. I've also flirted lots with a Lexus lc500.
So, at say 3000 miles a year, would £3k for running costs/service be about right? I'm not worried if I lost 10% of purchase cost over 3 years. its one of the last chances to have a v12 IMO.
I've also got a 240z I'm rebuilding as a B road car. I've also flirted lots with a Lexus lc500.
So, at say 3000 miles a year, would £3k for running costs/service be about right? I'm not worried if I lost 10% of purchase cost over 3 years. its one of the last chances to have a v12 IMO.
jason61c said:
So I keep looking at something 'special'. I've a lovely lovely 993, which if listed would be one of the cleanest/most sorted on the market. value of circa 85k. having looked at 360's/355's/599's. I'm starting to think a FF might be the answer, Space for kiddies helps. values have remained fairly stable fro the past 2 years as I can see.
I've also got a 240z I'm rebuilding as a B road car. I've also flirted lots with a Lexus lc500.
So, at say 3000 miles a year, would £3k for running costs/service be about right? I'm not worried if I lost 10% of purchase cost over 3 years. its one of the last chances to have a v12 IMO.
A regular service is about £1000 a major (every 4 years I think) is £2,500.I've also got a 240z I'm rebuilding as a B road car. I've also flirted lots with a Lexus lc500.
So, at say 3000 miles a year, would £3k for running costs/service be about right? I'm not worried if I lost 10% of purchase cost over 3 years. its one of the last chances to have a v12 IMO.
These cars don't really like sitting, they also aren't easy to resell (the pool of buyers for an FF is pretty small) and you'd be lucky to get away with a 10% spread assuming the market remained static in your 36 month window. A dealer won't buy an FF (for anything approaching a sensible amount of money) unless it's a very low mile late model in spectacular condition. So you're always going to be selling on a consigment basis.
A warranty (power15) is £3960 a year, or you can self insure. Your choice.
Personally I'm approaching 3000 mile at month 3 in mine and so far (touch wood) it's been fine. I will continue to do 800-1000 miles a month unless the weather is really bad.
I want to change the exhaust (too loud when in stop start traffic!) and I did change the head unit.
Avoid the first two years of production (2011/12) those are the cars more prone to PTU problems, there were some tiny but important changes made from 2013 onwards.
They are awesome, despite being under the radar they do still attract quite a lot of attention. More than I expected and I have a very subtle spec.
Startup is VERY loud, antisocial almost and was addressed when they built the Lusso.
Go in with your eyes open and you won't have a problem.
Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 6th November 00:27
21ATS said:
Avoid the first two years of production (2011/12) those are the cars more prone to PTU problems, there were some tiny but important changes made from 2013 onwards.
Agreed with everything apart from this point. It’s the DCT brittle tie wrap problem in the early cars which made the 2011/12 cars a slightly riskier proposition. There is little correlation between age and PTU failure based on the database that I’ve been keeping. In fact, the really old cars are statistically less likely to fail as they’re now two standard deviations away from the mean age of failure
I guess that’s lies, damned lies and statistics for you…But, intuitively, it makes some sense - if a car is going to break down due to poor assembly or parts choice then it probably will have done so already in the last decade.
We’re now at a stage with the age of these cars where you should be buying on condition. I’d rather take a pristine 2011 car than a rabbity 2016, all else being equal.
Edited by ANOpax on Sunday 6th November 07:53
jason61c said:
Thanks!
I did look at 599's however the FF might suit more. What makes them a hard sell? Being 4 seat, now there's that SUV thing from Ferrari, I wonder if it'll help firm them up? I just love the shape of the FF.
The only things which made the FF a hard sell compared to other Ferraris were the looks and the ruinous cost of PTU repair. The PTU can now be modified and rebuilt by a couple of specialists in the U.K. at 'reasonable' cost I did look at 599's however the FF might suit more. What makes them a hard sell? Being 4 seat, now there's that SUV thing from Ferrari, I wonder if it'll help firm them up? I just love the shape of the FF.
. While the looks remain subjective, I think the car has aged really well. You're correct that the PS is simply an evolution of the Lusso bodystyle which is itself, an evolution of the FF. So if the PS turns out to be amazingly popular, history will come to know the FF as Genesis for the PS.FF vs the 599 is no contest. The FF wins every time. When we were shopping for my wife's Cali, I asked the indy who looks after my FF if the 599 would be a good choice. His response? ' Why bother? every time you take the 599, you'll wonder why you aren't in the FF instead'. And this is from someone who is a real expert on 599s...
jason61c said:
Thanks!
I did look at 599's however the FF might suit more. What makes them a hard sell? Being 4 seat, now there's that SUV thing from Ferrari, I wonder if it'll help firm them up? I just love the shape of the FF.
All V12 Ferraris are a tough sell, they always have been, 4 seat ones even more so.I did look at 599's however the FF might suit more. What makes them a hard sell? Being 4 seat, now there's that SUV thing from Ferrari, I wonder if it'll help firm them up? I just love the shape of the FF.
They are dream cars, cars people aspire to but bottle out of when it actually comes to buying one through fear of ruinous bills. I did just that for 5 years then decided if I don't buy one now I probably never will. The reality is the pool of buyers is so small that it will take some time to move one on once you've decided to sell. The older they get the more difficult this becomes. It's not unusal for cars to be for sale for years on and off unless you're willing to take a trade bid.
I paid £125K for my car and I'd expect a minimum £20K spread in that if I were to try and move it on. It's just how it is and if it works out better than that then I've had a result.
Be realistic is all I'm saying. You may very well buy an FF and get out again with only a 10% loss and running costs of £3K a year.
But you could also be looking at 30% depreciation and £10K a year over the same period. So you budget for the worst and hope for the best.
If 30% and £10K a year is way outside your comfort zone just don't buy a V12 Ferrari, you'd just be sweating every time you drove it, or at every drip of oil that appears.
599's are more expensive again when it comes to repairs and maintenance.
Honestly most of these modern Ferrari's are pretty reliable. They have the odd design quirk and a whole host of "Italian" build quality but they aren't like they were back in the day when you had to remove the engine every 4 years for a major service.
If you buy a car that has full history take it to a main dealer for annual servicing as the cost is pretty similar to a specialist, but come resale that main dealer stamp is worth more than any saving you make in service costs. For anything other than a service use a specialist or do it yourself.
Edited by 21ATS on Sunday 6th November 09:18
One more thing with FF's.
There are two markets for these cars in the UK, one with Panoramic roofs and one without, each one then breaks down into the usual mileage, history numbers of owners after that. Whether or not that's justified isn't really a conversation, it's just how it is and the prices are noticeably different.
A car with a Pano roof is much much easier to move on.
There are two markets for these cars in the UK, one with Panoramic roofs and one without, each one then breaks down into the usual mileage, history numbers of owners after that. Whether or not that's justified isn't really a conversation, it's just how it is and the prices are noticeably different.
A car with a Pano roof is much much easier to move on.
ANOpax said:
21ATS said:
Avoid the first two years of production (2011/12) those are the cars more prone to PTU problems, there were some tiny but important changes made from 2013 onwards.
Agreed with everything apart from this point. It’s the DCT brittle tie wrap problem in the early cars which made the 2011/12 cars a slightly riskier proposition. There is little correlation between age and PTU failure based on the database that I’ve been keeping. In fact, the really old cars are statistically less likely to fail as they’re now two standard deviations away from the mean age of failure
I guess that’s lies, damned lies and statistics for you…But, intuitively, it makes some sense - if a car is going to break down due to poor assembly or parts choice then it probably will have done so already in the last decade.
We’re now at a stage with the age of these cars where you should be buying on condition. I’d rather take a pristine 2011 car than a rabbity 2016, all else being equal.
Edited by ANOpax on Sunday 6th November 07:53
21ATS said:
Be realistic is all I'm saying. You may very well buy an FF and get out again with only a 10% loss and running costs of £3K a year.
It's also possible that Jason61 may never come to sell it.The pool of available cars has shrunk as some get crashed but the majority are finding 'permanent' homes. Look at MDL111 - 85k km on his and the love affair is still going strong. My wife has told me that if we ever fall on hard times, the last car to go will be the FF.
Harris nailed it in his FF review when he said that it's a special place to be at any speed - even when stuck on the M4 in lashing rain on a Friday night...
Kettmark said:
I've been contemplating an ff for a while now. Currently have a Granturismo and keeping an eye on the classifieds. Same cars still for sale....
I bought mine before the photographs even hit the classifieds, the advert then stayed live for another 2 months. Good ones tend to move like this, they will often not even make classifieds before being moved on.It just happend to be the perfect spec for me so I got it before anyone else did.
Do take a look at the ratio of cars advertised with plain roofs to the pano roof.
So if you genuinely want one, put some feelers out with specialists and it's likely they have a customer who may well move a car on that has known provenance. A lot of owners of these cars own multiple vehicles and don't really need to to sell them, but if the right offer/buyer comes along they let them go.
That's another part of the Ferrari market that's a little odd. Many owners don't need the money, they often would prefer to keep the car than sell it for what they think is less than it's worth. That's much more the case with V12's which are generally produced in much smaller numbers than the mid engied cars.
There are a little over 200 FF's in the UK. That's a pretty small pool of cars to buying from particualrly if like me, you're a bit fussy with spec and colours. So when one I did like came up I just accepted I had to pay what they were asking.
ANOpax said:
It's also possible that Jason61 may never come to sell it.
The pool of available cars has shrunk as some get crashed but the majority are finding 'permanent' homes. Look at MDL111 - 85k km on his and the love affair is still going strong. My wife has told me that if we ever fall on hard times, the last car to go will be the FF.
Harris nailed it in his FF review when he said that it's a special place to be at any speed - even when stuck on the M4 in lashing rain on a Friday night...
I'm only 3 months in and I'm struggling to imagine what I'd buy to replace the FF. I'm doing a bit of minor tinkering to get it right and I want get the exhaust quieter around town at traffic speeds but other than that I can't see mine going anywhere, not with the mileage I'm putting on it.The pool of available cars has shrunk as some get crashed but the majority are finding 'permanent' homes. Look at MDL111 - 85k km on his and the love affair is still going strong. My wife has told me that if we ever fall on hard times, the last car to go will be the FF.
Harris nailed it in his FF review when he said that it's a special place to be at any speed - even when stuck on the M4 in lashing rain on a Friday night...
Kettmark said:
I've been contemplating an ff for a while now. Currently have a Granturismo and keeping an eye on the classifieds. Same cars still for sale....
I think the UK's mileage obsession is partly to blame. A quick glance at the PH classifieds suggests that c.half the FFs for sale have 30k miles or more. UK Ferraristi have been indoctrinated with the idea that anything above 25k miles is 'high' mileage and a residual nightmare. So this scares buyers away from the higher mileage cars. The thing is that the FF is so damned good that it gets driven way more than its weekend toy mid-engine V8 bretheren.As 21ATS says, these cars need to be driven regularly to be at their best and most reliable. So use this mileage fixation to your advantage when shopping for one.
ANOpax said:
21ATS said:
Be realistic is all I'm saying. You may very well buy an FF and get out again with only a 10% loss and running costs of £3K a year.
It's also possible that Jason61 may never come to sell it.The pool of available cars has shrunk as some get crashed but the majority are finding 'permanent' homes. Look at MDL111 - 85k km on his and the love affair is still going strong. My wife has told me that if we ever fall on hard times, the last car to go will be the FF.
Harris nailed it in his FF review when he said that it's a special place to be at any speed - even when stuck on the M4 in lashing rain on a Friday night...
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