Every day tips for living with a 599
Discussion
Today I'm with Scuderia-S7 for their Autumn training.
Unfortunately it started badly. First lap out someone crashed on their own oil at Tiergarten.
Once sorted, the training starts and I don't think the car is happy. Not sure if the track is just slippery or the tyres are 'off' as the TC light seems to be on all the time. On top of that when the cars cold she is hesitating to give me gears under throttle and is very jerky. Once warm seems to be okay but it's all making me a little nervous.
Our instructor is Oliver Rudolph and he's very fast. He goes in front first then follows. We come in for a chat and he questions my 'strange' braking and lines. I explain about the pistons getting pushed back and trying to manage the car over the bumps. He seems happy and says it's not causing me to lose momentum.
At lunch it's free driving on the full circuit and I start the lap timer.
First lap out, warming up I catch a little traffic and I catch one car each lap but on the third lap I'm sub 8min. I'm feeling comfortable but also know I'm leaning on the TC.
Afternoon it rains and it's super slippery so get my tyres checked.
Too funny to have a Ferrari and Merc getting serviced by Manthey
Mostly is the usual Porsche GT cars here but there's at least one other person who isn't afraid to tread a different path
Unfortunately it started badly. First lap out someone crashed on their own oil at Tiergarten.
Once sorted, the training starts and I don't think the car is happy. Not sure if the track is just slippery or the tyres are 'off' as the TC light seems to be on all the time. On top of that when the cars cold she is hesitating to give me gears under throttle and is very jerky. Once warm seems to be okay but it's all making me a little nervous.
Our instructor is Oliver Rudolph and he's very fast. He goes in front first then follows. We come in for a chat and he questions my 'strange' braking and lines. I explain about the pistons getting pushed back and trying to manage the car over the bumps. He seems happy and says it's not causing me to lose momentum.
At lunch it's free driving on the full circuit and I start the lap timer.
First lap out, warming up I catch a little traffic and I catch one car each lap but on the third lap I'm sub 8min. I'm feeling comfortable but also know I'm leaning on the TC.
Afternoon it rains and it's super slippery so get my tyres checked.
Too funny to have a Ferrari and Merc getting serviced by Manthey
Mostly is the usual Porsche GT cars here but there's at least one other person who isn't afraid to tread a different path
It's beautiful in the Eiffel Region.
Sun set from the Porsche Lounge
Misty morning at the https://www.agnesen-hof.de/ my favourite place to stay in Nurburg.
Sun set from the Porsche Lounge
Misty morning at the https://www.agnesen-hof.de/ my favourite place to stay in Nurburg.
The 599 is grumbling in the morning. In the cold I can hear the engine tappeting at start up. Driving to the Devil's Dinner and she's hesitating at low revs on light throttle openings and if I'm in manual mode hesitating to up shift.
I've got a couple of warning lights.
The electrical system I'm not so worried about. But I have noticed the car sometimes not locking on the key button.
CCM worn I'm also not worried about as I think the ECU calculation is way out.
I've also noticed that the right door external window seal seems to have moved
Left side for comparison
I've got a couple of warning lights.
The electrical system I'm not so worried about. But I have noticed the car sometimes not locking on the key button.
CCM worn I'm also not worried about as I think the ECU calculation is way out.
I've also noticed that the right door external window seal seems to have moved
Left side for comparison
Morning training starts badly with a modified TT going on fire.
I've dropped the pace by about 10%, trying to run one gear higher and work the car less, be more smooth and flow more. I'm surprised to find over a lap I'm not much slower. It also gives me some spare brain power to work on lines and reference points.
Late morning it pours with rain so we go over the videos. Oliver picks my driving apart.
In the end he says it's just fine tuning. One positive thing he commented on was just how fast the 599 can accelerate.
Harry's lap time gives a top speed from yesterday of 180mph and a theoretical fastest lap of 7:57:30
I've dropped the pace by about 10%, trying to run one gear higher and work the car less, be more smooth and flow more. I'm surprised to find over a lap I'm not much slower. It also gives me some spare brain power to work on lines and reference points.
Late morning it pours with rain so we go over the videos. Oliver picks my driving apart.
In the end he says it's just fine tuning. One positive thing he commented on was just how fast the 599 can accelerate.
Harry's lap time gives a top speed from yesterday of 180mph and a theoretical fastest lap of 7:57:30
A couple of grainy snips from the video work
A dab of oppo at T13
Spinning up the inside rear in Hatzenbach, happens a lot so will see what can be done about it.
The afternoon turns sunny and the track dries out so I head out again doing three lap stints. Then cool the car, check the tyres and brakes before repeating.
Last afternoon the track is always empty. Each stint I don't see another car. Running a gear higher and I'm getting faster and faster.
I have a little scare in Breidscheid (a little slide that lasted a little long). Then a big scare over the jump at Pflanzgarten I (no brakes!)
So I call it a day as I don't want to know what the third scare is going to be.
I check the car over and the left front pad looks finished.
Front left tyre, middle to outer edge, is also done. I blame the last corner Galgenkopf, a long right onto the Döttinger Höhe. I think the Traction Control is grabbing the front brakes a lot.
Right front looks okay
And as usual the rears are untouched
I call Freddy and he can't get pads for at least 10 days. He suggests I put the old pads in as they were only half done.
I call Ferrari and Basel have OEM CCM pads in stock and it's on my route to Geneva.
Plan formed.
A dab of oppo at T13
Spinning up the inside rear in Hatzenbach, happens a lot so will see what can be done about it.
The afternoon turns sunny and the track dries out so I head out again doing three lap stints. Then cool the car, check the tyres and brakes before repeating.
Last afternoon the track is always empty. Each stint I don't see another car. Running a gear higher and I'm getting faster and faster.
I have a little scare in Breidscheid (a little slide that lasted a little long). Then a big scare over the jump at Pflanzgarten I (no brakes!)
So I call it a day as I don't want to know what the third scare is going to be.
I check the car over and the left front pad looks finished.
Front left tyre, middle to outer edge, is also done. I blame the last corner Galgenkopf, a long right onto the Döttinger Höhe. I think the Traction Control is grabbing the front brakes a lot.
Right front looks okay
And as usual the rears are untouched
I call Freddy and he can't get pads for at least 10 days. He suggests I put the old pads in as they were only half done.
I call Ferrari and Basel have OEM CCM pads in stock and it's on my route to Geneva.
Plan formed.
I head over to see Frank at Ring Toys and pull the old pads out of the metal recycling.
Both ramps are busy so Frank lends me some tools and I get my hands dirty.
Take off the wheel and I get a shock. The upper caliper pin is partially out. The 'olive' that holds the pin in by friction seems worn. I think carousel has rattled it free. New caliper pins required.
I get the pads out.
They're proper done and an obvious taper from the leading edge.
The spring clip is also damaged
Old and replacement together
I build everything back up
Temporary solution sorted. No more track work for a while till I can sort the brakes properly.
Both ramps are busy so Frank lends me some tools and I get my hands dirty.
Take off the wheel and I get a shock. The upper caliper pin is partially out. The 'olive' that holds the pin in by friction seems worn. I think carousel has rattled it free. New caliper pins required.
I get the pads out.
They're proper done and an obvious taper from the leading edge.
The spring clip is also damaged
Old and replacement together
I build everything back up
Temporary solution sorted. No more track work for a while till I can sort the brakes properly.
Boleros said:
This is going to be a stupid question but how do carbon discs actually work? Given that the surface area is 'pitted' the actual contact surface must be reduced by X% compared to steels so why the design and how are they better than steels (or a variation thereof)?
Not a stupid question at all. Basically they work the same way. I think they have two major advantages. Weight and thermal capacity.So with the weight this has a major effect on the unsprung mass / suspension and therefore handling.
With greater thermal capacity you should be able to brake harder for longer.
Originally they were thought to last longer than equivalent steel brakes but I think we can see this is BS. At least for the generation 1 ceramics.
Engineering Explained for a better.... explanation
https://youtu.be/VBd9y3mxzCM?si=7vcwySRJ39A8pKvS
Freddy has a steel option with a special pad which he believes gives better braking performance than the ceramics. One issue he says is squeal. The pads are expensive but he says they last a lot longer.
He also told me that it's Pagid RSC2 that I should put in the rear if I stick with ceramics.
I'm torn at the moment.
Boleros said:
Cheers cake, will have a look at the link later. What of the surface of a carbon disc though, why so pitted? I realise the pitting isn't due to corrosion but still curious to know why it looks the way it does and whether that affects performance.
My very basic understanding is that the disc gets so hot it 'vents' off part of the disc material. Again, very basic internet wisdom says it's an oxidation process and the reason the disc must be weighed as the disc can become porous as well as pitted. CCM discs can pass minimum thickness but be under weight and this loses it's thermal capacity.Some basic info here
https://www.redisc.si/en/news/brake-wear-vs-brake-...
To be honest I've not noticed any drop in performance but I'm hardly ever 'at limit' braking. Always need a little f
up roomPGNSagaris said:
Love seeing these updates
Quick q. Would you consider running without traction control ?
The braking interference and aggressive wear, admittedly on my 991, drives me nuts (I’ve not tracked my 599)
At Donington and Spa I have run without traction control. Quick q. Would you consider running without traction control ?
The braking interference and aggressive wear, admittedly on my 991, drives me nuts (I’ve not tracked my 599)
To be honest, I'm s
t scared of going CST off at Nurburgring. I know it's both holding me back as much as it saves me. She's can be a tricky beast 'at limit'.[
When I did a track day a number of years ago with the McLaren test and development drivers we were talking about the steel v ceramic debate and all of them said if doing a lot of track work they would choose steels all day long,
quote=cake eater]
So with the weight this has a major effect on the unsprung mass / suspension and therefore handling.
With greater thermal capacity you should be able to brake harder for longer.
Originally they were thought to last longer than equivalent steel brakes but I think we can see this is BS. At least for the generation 1 ceramics.
Engineering Explained for a better.... explanation
https://youtu.be/VBd9y3mxzCM?si=7vcwySRJ39A8pKvS
Freddy has a steel option with a special pad which he believes gives better braking performance than the ceramics. One issue he says is squeal. The pads are expensive but he says they last a lot longer.
He also told me that it's Pagid RSC2 that I should put in the rear if I stick with ceramics.
I'm torn at the moment.
When I did a track day a number of years ago with the McLaren test and development drivers we were talking about the steel v ceramic debate and all of them said if doing a lot of track work they would choose steels all day long,
quote=cake eater]
Boleros said:
This is going to be a stupid question but how do carbon discs actually work? Given that the surface area is 'pitted' the actual contact surface must be reduced by X% compared to steels so why the design and how are they better than steels (or a variation thereof)?
Not a stupid question at all. Basically they work the same way. I think they have two major advantages. Weight and thermal capacity.So with the weight this has a major effect on the unsprung mass / suspension and therefore handling.
With greater thermal capacity you should be able to brake harder for longer.
Originally they were thought to last longer than equivalent steel brakes but I think we can see this is BS. At least for the generation 1 ceramics.
Engineering Explained for a better.... explanation
https://youtu.be/VBd9y3mxzCM?si=7vcwySRJ39A8pKvS
Freddy has a steel option with a special pad which he believes gives better braking performance than the ceramics. One issue he says is squeal. The pads are expensive but he says they last a lot longer.
He also told me that it's Pagid RSC2 that I should put in the rear if I stick with ceramics.
I'm torn at the moment.
Apart from a few, most people I have talked to agree with you. A swiss 468 driver (his car in a previous picture from today) said he had persisted with ceramics but two years ago changed to steel and would not go back. A GT2 RS driver was the same way but he said he felt the ceramics offered better performance.
I would like to try CarboBrake but agree that for the money, you can't beat going steel. Especially as Freddy thinks he can get better performance. I also need to sort out this long pedal issue.
I would like to try CarboBrake but agree that for the money, you can't beat going steel. Especially as Freddy thinks he can get better performance. I also need to sort out this long pedal issue.
Chrism355 said:
[
When I did a track day a number of years ago with the McLaren test and development drivers we were talking about the steel v ceramic debate and all of them said if doing a lot of track work they would choose steels all day long,
quote=cake eater]
So with the weight this has a major effect on the unsprung mass / suspension and therefore handling.
With greater thermal capacity you should be able to brake harder for longer.
Originally they were thought to last longer than equivalent steel brakes but I think we can see this is BS. At least for the generation 1 ceramics.
Engineering Explained for a better.... explanation
https://youtu.be/VBd9y3mxzCM?si=7vcwySRJ39A8pKvS
Freddy has a steel option with a special pad which he believes gives better braking performance than the ceramics. One issue he says is squeal. The pads are expensive but he says they last a lot longer.
He also told me that it's Pagid RSC2 that I should put in the rear if I stick with ceramics.
I'm torn at the moment.
When I did a track day a number of years ago with the McLaren test and development drivers we were talking about the steel v ceramic debate and all of them said if doing a lot of track work they would choose steels all day long,
quote=cake eater]
Boleros said:
This is going to be a stupid question but how do carbon discs actually work? Given that the surface area is 'pitted' the actual contact surface must be reduced by X% compared to steels so why the design and how are they better than steels (or a variation thereof)?
Not a stupid question at all. Basically they work the same way. I think they have two major advantages. Weight and thermal capacity.So with the weight this has a major effect on the unsprung mass / suspension and therefore handling.
With greater thermal capacity you should be able to brake harder for longer.
Originally they were thought to last longer than equivalent steel brakes but I think we can see this is BS. At least for the generation 1 ceramics.
Engineering Explained for a better.... explanation
https://youtu.be/VBd9y3mxzCM?si=7vcwySRJ39A8pKvS
Freddy has a steel option with a special pad which he believes gives better braking performance than the ceramics. One issue he says is squeal. The pads are expensive but he says they last a lot longer.
He also told me that it's Pagid RSC2 that I should put in the rear if I stick with ceramics.
I'm torn at the moment.
Early start to get to Ferrari in Basel. I force Google maps to stay in Germany and head off.
It's light rain but slowly gets heavier and heavier. I'm nervous of the tyres and geometry but the tyres stay secure even through sections of standing water which I'm surprised at but then again I'm only going 100 kph
Google turns us onto Autobahn 5 and there is a long 3 lane derestricted section. One for the notes for 'can attempt top speed run here'.
Weather has dried up and I pick up the pace as well as flying partner in an X5. We're doing over 250 at times but traffic means we can't maintain.
Strangely, the brakes feel really good. A lot of feel, good initial bite and good stopping power. Much better than at the Ring. It's the smooth roads and no high G cornering. Pistons are staying where they are supposed to be. At least that's my conclusion.
It's light rain but slowly gets heavier and heavier. I'm nervous of the tyres and geometry but the tyres stay secure even through sections of standing water which I'm surprised at but then again I'm only going 100 kph
Google turns us onto Autobahn 5 and there is a long 3 lane derestricted section. One for the notes for 'can attempt top speed run here'.
Weather has dried up and I pick up the pace as well as flying partner in an X5. We're doing over 250 at times but traffic means we can't maintain.
Strangely, the brakes feel really good. A lot of feel, good initial bite and good stopping power. Much better than at the Ring. It's the smooth roads and no high G cornering. Pistons are staying where they are supposed to be. At least that's my conclusion.
Crossing the boarder in Switzerland and it's very industrial. Not the Switzerland I know. I make my way to Ferrari Basel and it's quite subtle on the outside.
But inside is awesome!!!
Dealership is like a TARDIS!
With a classic section also that looks like you're is someone's country house.
But inside is awesome!!!
Dealership is like a TARDIS!
With a classic section also that looks like you're is someone's country house.
My car goes up on the ramp and they tell me two hours to change the pads.
I tell them I did them yesterday in 30mins. I neglect to mention it was just one side.
Service manager comes to see me, he's very concerned and confused. He says the pads are good but the CCM is 108% worn and they've never seen that before!
I explain how I changed the pads yesterday for a good used set and I change pads at 50% worn.
I explain the CCM are newly installed in January and why I believe the ECU reading is incorrect. But he's not happy. I don't blame him. He keeps coming back to 108% worn and they've never seen that before.
Eventually he agrees to change the pads as long as I promise to get the discs checked properly, cleaned and weighed.
There's a 458 race car and it's discs look new. I ask the service manager why? Is the car not used. He says it's a challenge car and raced regularly. Discs are CCM -R. I ask if I can put them on the 599 but he tells me he's not sure they're available for my car.
New Ferrari pads in, wallet lighter and I'm off to Geneva. Brakes feel better again but I put this down to only light braking. I really need to work out how to get this level of feel ond confidence when using the brakes hard.
The Jura region opens up into lakes and hills and this is the beautiful Switzerland I know.
I tell them I did them yesterday in 30mins. I neglect to mention it was just one side.
Service manager comes to see me, he's very concerned and confused. He says the pads are good but the CCM is 108% worn and they've never seen that before!
I explain how I changed the pads yesterday for a good used set and I change pads at 50% worn.
I explain the CCM are newly installed in January and why I believe the ECU reading is incorrect. But he's not happy. I don't blame him. He keeps coming back to 108% worn and they've never seen that before.
Eventually he agrees to change the pads as long as I promise to get the discs checked properly, cleaned and weighed.
There's a 458 race car and it's discs look new. I ask the service manager why? Is the car not used. He says it's a challenge car and raced regularly. Discs are CCM -R. I ask if I can put them on the 599 but he tells me he's not sure they're available for my car.
New Ferrari pads in, wallet lighter and I'm off to Geneva. Brakes feel better again but I put this down to only light braking. I really need to work out how to get this level of feel ond confidence when using the brakes hard.
The Jura region opens up into lakes and hills and this is the beautiful Switzerland I know.
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