308/328 Values
Discussion
996Type said:
There’s a £44K LHD to RHD conversion on eBay at the moment done by Maranello. As a car to keep would this be a good proposition? It’s the older narrow spoiler GTB and a my perfect spec. Should the open gear change gate be closer to the driver or the passenger (regarding the conversion).
On all original, unaltered Ferrari 308 GTB's >S', the gear lever should sit next to the drivers seat, and the ashtray should sit next to the passengers seat.On the car in question, the original LHD centre console is still fitted ( left that way because it adds cost to the conversion, for no real gain - Apart from looking correct. It doesn't make "that" much difference to driving the car, the gear lever, sits a bit further away, but apparently, owners get used to it. )
The windscreen wipers are also still in LHD configuration -They should sweep the opposite way (Swapping the wipers to RHD Configuration requires a new front hood due to the wiper arm locations being different, and a change to the wiper linkage etc., etc., - More expense)
Neither of those two things are really the end of the World, but......
The car was a 2015 US import.
It only has a "part" service history.
The recess that sits half way up the wings and doors should be black (It should be black paint from the factory, but some cars have black tape that was added later after a respray, and some US cars have rubber strips in the recesses that was fitted by dealers. One way or another, the recess should be black and not body coloured )
It's still wearing it's US spec front indicator/side light lenses (again, not the end of the World, but cheap enough to replace)
The clock and oil temperature gauges are in the wrong location. For 1975~1980 cars, they should be located at the end of the dashboard, between the steering column and the door. From 1980 onwards, they should be located on the front edge of the centre console, just ahead of the gear stick/ashtray area. On this car, the gauges appear to have been located in the centre of the dashboard, where a radio would go (after-market - Ferrari didn't supply radio's with the cars back then ). Again, not the end of the World - It simply shows that the RHD dashboard was from a 1980 onwards car rather than a 1975~1980 car.
The front windscreen trim is silver/chrome - It should be black.
The advert claims that the car is: ".....a right-hand drive conversion undertaken in Maranello" - What's that meant to mean?
The Ferrari Factory in Maranello? (I'm struggling to believe that Ferrari themselves would have just slapped in any old 308 GTB/GTS dashboard, rather than ensuring it was period correct)
It was done by "Luigi and Romano's" back street auto repair shop in Maranello?
I'd want to see (and personally confirm), exactly where the conversion was carried out, to ensure it's been done properly, with decent quality parts.
If I were interested in this car, I would want a full US Carfax report (the US version of a HPI check), to be carried out, to ensure that this is not a car with a "salvage title" - Basically an insurance write-off.
Back around 2015, when this car was imported, the Ferrari market was high, with RHD 308 GTB's/GTS' changing hands for £80K~£110K, and LHD's changing hands for @ £60K~£80K (when they actually sold). Because of this, a lot of people went looking for cheap cars from Europe and the USA, to import into the UK, to make a killing on.
Also around that time, there were a lot of cars that had been written off in the USA due to severe flood damage, that had been dried out, and were being sold extremely cheaply internationally, as they could no longer go back on the road in the USA. The cars appear to be fine, but the reality is, they're slowly rusting from the inside-out, including the chassis', and will eventually become death-traps in an accident (The very reason why they are not allowed back on the road in the USA )
I'm not saying that the car in question is definitely a written off car from the USA, it may well not be, but I'd want to check very carefully to ensure it isn't.
One way or another, as American's would say, this is most definitely a "stories" car, meaning there's more to this car than initially meets the eye.
There's a saying amongst Ferrari owners (the down to Earth, real-World owners - Not the mega rich, multi-Millionaire owners), that goes:
"The most expensive Ferrari you can own, is more often than not, the cheapest Ferrari you buy!"
£44K for a US import/RHD conversion "stories" car? - I wouldn't! @ £30K maybe, but not for £44K.
Thank you so much for that overview.
I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
Do you have a view on the car at Keyes that requires suspension work that is similarly priced?
Risk versus ownership was a consideration for me back in the days they were £25K, now they are double that, I really want the best experience possible.
Or do you focus on a 360 with those being more modern?
I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
Do you have a view on the car at Keyes that requires suspension work that is similarly priced?
Risk versus ownership was a consideration for me back in the days they were £25K, now they are double that, I really want the best experience possible.
Or do you focus on a 360 with those being more modern?
996Type said:
Thank you so much for that overview.
I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
The tube space-frame chassis members on these cars are pretty substantial, and under normal circumstances, don't tend to give too many serious corrosion issues - They can get some surface corrosion, but it's very rare for it to become a structural concern. That though is based on rain/road water attacking the tubes from the outside~inwards, and the tubes were pretty well protected against that kind of water attack.I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
The problem with flood damaged cars is, if they sat under water for any period of time, then the water could/would find its way inside the tubes, where there was basically no rust protection at all. Due to how substantial the chassis tubes are, it would take quite a long time for any corrosion to become a major/dangerous issue, but eventually it could do (in reality, other non-structural parts of the car, along with the electrical system, that was already fragile enough to start with, would show water damage problems long before the chassis did).
Basically, my advice to anyone looking at an American import (of any car - not just a Ferrari), is to get a US Carfax report on the car if you can (don't just rely on a PPI or HPI report). Plenty of LHD US cars are perfectly good cars, that don't have a dodgy past, but it's best to check them just in case.
As for worrying about hidden rust, here is the harsh reality: The Ferrari 308 series (and 328 series to a slightly lesser extent), specialises in hidden rust!
Usually, by the time you spot those little bubbles of rust on an outer surface, there are major areas of rust right behind them!
Cars that have had major restorations carried out in recent years should be all but rust free, but they're in the £80K ~ £120K area still, and I'm getting the impression that you're not in that market.
Down in the £40K~£60k market, I'm afraid you need to approach 308 GTB's/GTS' with a view that there's going to be some hidden corrosion somewhere (2 valve cars [1975~1983] basically only had a very limited rust protection, whilst 4 valve/Quattrovalvole cars [1984/1985 cars] were a little better protected, but it still wasn't perfect ). That's not to say that they're all complete rust buckets, but you need to brace yourself for some bubbling appearing sooner or later.
The good news is, because of the way the 308 GTB's/GTS's are constructed (a separate body mounted over a space-frame chassis), any body corrosion will not be structural.
996Type said:
.......Do you have a view on the car at Keyes that requires suspension work that is similarly priced?....
This is the biggest concern I have with that particular car:
"The cars bodywork presents well upon first glance but upon closer inspection it is apparent that bodywork is required in all the usual 308 hot spots (Sills, lower doors, lower front wings) in order to return the car to its former glory."
That to me says: "Budget £15K~ £20K to get this car back to immaculate condition".
The problem is, chances are, once you cut away the Sills, lower doors and lower front wings, you're going to discover a whole load of more corrosion underneath. (No guarantee, but you have to assume the worst when a 308 GTB/GTS starts to show corrosion in all of these areas)
Add in the cost of sorting out the suspension, and suddenly this bargain "£46K" car, is in reality, a £60K~£70K car, if you want it to be "right".
There's also a a 1977 308 GTB for sale on Pistonheads as a private sale for £47,995, the advert of which states: "....needs a little body work....". again, you'd need to figure in at least £10K to sort the body work out, making this £48K car, a £58K car at least.
996Type said:
......Risk versus ownership was a consideration for me back in the days they were £25K, now they are double that, I really want the best experience possible......
TBH, for the best experience possible, I'd say you need to be looking at cars in the mid £60K price bracket upwards really.
Buying at the bottom end of the 308 market is okay if you have the money to bring the car back to it's best, but if you're buying at this level simply because it's cheap, then it can go badly wrong, and leave you with a bad impression of the cars - The difference between a 308 GTB/GTS in perfect condition, and a tired, worn out car, really is night and day!
996Type said:
...Or do you focus on a 360 with those being more modern?
My ideal era of Ferrari is the 308/328/348/355/Testarossa/512 TR era (I have fond memories of the 80's [ think Magnum P.I/Miami Vice], into the early 90's! 
)The 360/430 cars are great cars in their own right, and easier to live with in many ways, but they do seem to lack a bit of the "old school" Ferrari magic that the "buttress" cars had.
4rephill said:
My ideal era of Ferrari is the 308/328/348/355/Testarossa/512 TR era (I have fond memories of the 80's [ think Magnum P.I/Miami Vice], into the early 90's! )
100% Agree!
Great posts BTW and thanks for your knowledgeable input. )100% Agree!
There's a number of cars advertised in the high 60's. Based on what you're saying these are the cars to go for. For peace of mind would you recommend one of the established dealers such as KHP Cars or Rardley Motors? I would hope there wouldn't be any nasty surprises hidden in their offerings.
I'm undecided on the precise model but ideally it would be a GTB QV but choice is more limited as they are quite rare. My plan is to test drive a carb 308, a QV, and a 328 and then buy on condition at hopefully the best deal possible.
Fiammetta said:
If you are really worried about rust enquire about a southern Italian import , rising £ and flat IT economy = some good buys .At theses ages go for a carburettor modal and since condition is king the LHD perceptions diminish.
Yeah, found this https://www.linkmotors.it/dettaglio.asp?id_auto=83...
Imagine driving that back to Blighty after a lap of Sardinia!
Seems to be missing its black stripe as far as I can tell so might have had some paint at some point.
Rediscovered an iconic article by an iconic writer. Steve Cropley owned a carb 308 back in the 80's and compares it here with the new 328. Interesting how advanced he finds the 328 with his own car. Much faster, refined, better braked, better built etc. He also estimated his 308 put out around 220hp as opposed to the factory claimed 255hp. So, if the quoted output of a GTBi is 214hp their respective performance should be almost the same. Or is the GTBi even more sluggish??
4rephill said:
996Type said:
Thank you so much for that overview.
I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
The tube space-frame chassis members on these cars are pretty substantial, and under normal circumstances, don't tend to give too many serious corrosion issues - They can get some surface corrosion, but it's very rare for it to become a structural concern. That though is based on rain/road water attacking the tubes from the outside~inwards, and the tubes were pretty well protected against that kind of water attack.I recall another (same?) RHD conversion car doing the rounds recently. I’d need a full PPI before buying on any of these as I just don’t have the knowledge myself.
That’s interesting regarding the import status and the potential risks I’d not considered.
Hidden rust would worry me anyway, I’d hate to have a car dissolve on me, let alone now they are £40K+.
The problem with flood damaged cars is, if they sat under water for any period of time, then the water could/would find its way inside the tubes, where there was basically no rust protection at all. Due to how substantial the chassis tubes are, it would take quite a long time for any corrosion to become a major/dangerous issue, but eventually it could do (in reality, other non-structural parts of the car, along with the electrical system, that was already fragile enough to start with, would show water damage problems long before the chassis did).
Basically, my advice to anyone looking at an American import (of any car - not just a Ferrari), is to get a US Carfax report on the car if you can (don't just rely on a PPI or HPI report). Plenty of LHD US cars are perfectly good cars, that don't have a dodgy past, but it's best to check them just in case.
As for worrying about hidden rust, here is the harsh reality: The Ferrari 308 series (and 328 series to a slightly lesser extent), specialises in hidden rust!
Usually, by the time you spot those little bubbles of rust on an outer surface, there are major areas of rust right behind them!
Cars that have had major restorations carried out in recent years should be all but rust free, but they're in the £80K ~ £120K area still, and I'm getting the impression that you're not in that market.
Down in the £40K~£60k market, I'm afraid you need to approach 308 GTB's/GTS' with a view that there's going to be some hidden corrosion somewhere (2 valve cars [1975~1983] basically only had a very limited rust protection, whilst 4 valve/Quattrovalvole cars [1984/1985 cars] were a little better protected, but it still wasn't perfect ). That's not to say that they're all complete rust buckets, but you need to brace yourself for some bubbling appearing sooner or later.
The good news is, because of the way the 308 GTB's/GTS's are constructed (a separate body mounted over a space-frame chassis), any body corrosion will not be structural.
996Type said:
.......Do you have a view on the car at Keyes that requires suspension work that is similarly priced?....
This is the biggest concern I have with that particular car:
"The cars bodywork presents well upon first glance but upon closer inspection it is apparent that bodywork is required in all the usual 308 hot spots (Sills, lower doors, lower front wings) in order to return the car to its former glory."
That to me says: "Budget £15K~ £20K to get this car back to immaculate condition".
The problem is, chances are, once you cut away the Sills, lower doors and lower front wings, you're going to discover a whole load of more corrosion underneath. (No guarantee, but you have to assume the worst when a 308 GTB/GTS starts to show corrosion in all of these areas)
Add in the cost of sorting out the suspension, and suddenly this bargain "£46K" car, is in reality, a £60K~£70K car, if you want it to be "right".
There's also a a 1977 308 GTB for sale on Pistonheads as a private sale for £47,995, the advert of which states: "....needs a little body work....". again, you'd need to figure in at least £10K to sort the body work out, making this £48K car, a £58K car at least.
996Type said:
......Risk versus ownership was a consideration for me back in the days they were £25K, now they are double that, I really want the best experience possible......
TBH, for the best experience possible, I'd say you need to be looking at cars in the mid £60K price bracket upwards really.
Buying at the bottom end of the 308 market is okay if you have the money to bring the car back to it's best, but if you're buying at this level simply because it's cheap, then it can go badly wrong, and leave you with a bad impression of the cars - The difference between a 308 GTB/GTS in perfect condition, and a tired, worn out car, really is night and day!
996Type said:
...Or do you focus on a 360 with those being more modern?
My ideal era of Ferrari is the 308/328/348/355/Testarossa/512 TR era (I have fond memories of the 80's [ think Magnum P.I/Miami Vice], into the early 90's! )The 360/430 cars are great cars in their own right, and easier to live with in many ways, but they do seem to lack a bit of the "old school" Ferrari magic that the "buttress" cars had.
My own concern with the dealer cars requiring work (like all cars requiring work at a dealers) is why they don’t fix them themselves at trade rates as opposed to selling to a new owner still requiring the work, but expect its for sale on behalf of another owner maybe and they could be first in line to support the renovation.
In terms of the budget, it’s same with the Porsche market where the price rises have some real old rubbish jump up through the roof but carrying the same issues as £80K cars as they had when they were £20K cars. Difference is the repair prices have also gone north so you could lose both ways. I expect Ferrari are even more subject to this.
I had hoped having a renovation budget plus a £40K purchase budget would solve this but buying say a £60K car that still then needed loads of work would kill the whole thing, and I don’t see how you can ever guarantee buying a car that doesn’t need work (not minor ongoing work where you can still use the car) but the stuff referred to above where the vehicle is dissolving from the inside out!)
More to think about, thank you.
priley said:
Having bought the 'barn find' GTB from KHPC at the end of the summer I'm currently about to enter this world (once my 612 is sold to fund it). My car (1980 RHD 27k miles) cost £47500 and I envisage spending the same again on a windows-out restoration.
Such an exciting project deserves its own thread! Yeah, happy to do that when things ultimately get underway. Currently just getting the wheels refurbished before fitting some XWX’s so that I can at least drive it with confidence in its current state*
I’m not sure where I’ll end up in terms of the cost to value ratio but I’m just smitten with the car; I honestly didn’t expect the driving experience to be so good.
I’m not sure where I’ll end up in terms of the cost to value ratio but I’m just smitten with the car; I honestly didn’t expect the driving experience to be so good.
priley said:
Yeah, happy to do that when things ultimately get underway. Currently just getting the wheels refurbished before fitting some XWX’s so that I can at least drive it with confidence in its current state*
I’m not sure where I’ll end up in terms of the cost to value ratio but I’m just smitten with the car; I honestly didn’t expect the driving experience to be so good.
Thanks for that video, some interesting information. But one point regarding the video that the car runs and is roadworthy (so falls into rolling restoration territory?) If you can use it and enjoy it while you prepare for the works, I think that’s a different story. I’m also prepared to live with a car that’s imperfect body wise (but that’s not disintegrating) provided it’s safe and getting no worse. Is there a balance to this or am i kidding myself, as with the figures you state you could be into a concours resin car with your budget (lucky fella!) you can literally buy 2X cars for that kind of budget (or are resto costs beyond myself as a mere mortal)!I’m not sure where I’ll end up in terms of the cost to value ratio but I’m just smitten with the car; I honestly didn’t expect the driving experience to be so good.
Edited by 996Type on Thursday 12th December 15:24
browngt3 said:
Fiammetta said:
If you are really worried about rust enquire about a southern Italian import , rising £ and flat IT economy = some good buys .At theses ages go for a carburettor modal and since condition is king the LHD perceptions diminish.
Yeah, found this https://www.linkmotors.it/dettaglio.asp?id_auto=83...
Imagine driving that back to Blighty after a lap of Sardinia!
Seems to be missing its black stripe as far as I can tell so might have had some paint at some point.
Heres my 42 y old from Roma .Note the clean corrosion free undercarriage.
Also usual places on GT 4 ,s all clean inc door bottoms dry and corrosion free .
.
Edited by Fiammetta on Thursday 12th December 17:22
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