Bad time to buy a classic?
Discussion
Really? How did you get to that figure?cgt2 said:
.........Any older Ferrari can easily cost you £10k a year which will negate any supposed increase.......
Whilst an older Ferrari could cost you £10K to run during an occasional year when they need working on, in general, a 308~430 era car shouldn't cost anything like £10K to run most years.I've owned My 348 TS for over two years now and it hasn't cost Me £20k to run it (and it's not wanted for anything in that time)
I did not say every year guys. But to maintain a Ferrari properly, if using it and putting decent miles (ie. 10k+) on, my costs have been always in the region of £5k with the occasional bill of more hence the figure of £10k mentioned.
In my experience, apart from regular servicing, there are always niggly little things that need doing every year though I am a perfectionist, others may ignore smaller stuff. It is not helped by truly extortionate parts prices. I know many people don't even bother servicing annually and don't care too much if their tyres are more than three years old.
The only older one that didn't cost much to maintain was a 308, but every V12 I've had it's easy to spend more than £5k on routine stuff. I have used independents for older cars but always main dealers for anything under ten years old.
This has been consistent across 355, 360, 550, 575, 599 and 430. The 458 I had last year actually cost me nothing which was a very unique experience in 20 years of Ferrari ownership.
I have all the invoices to prove if anyone doubts me. They make painful reading.
My point it that it's a misconception to think you can run one on the cheap and it often feels like playing Russian Roulette with a £10k bill, and it has hit me three times over the years.
In my experience, apart from regular servicing, there are always niggly little things that need doing every year though I am a perfectionist, others may ignore smaller stuff. It is not helped by truly extortionate parts prices. I know many people don't even bother servicing annually and don't care too much if their tyres are more than three years old.
The only older one that didn't cost much to maintain was a 308, but every V12 I've had it's easy to spend more than £5k on routine stuff. I have used independents for older cars but always main dealers for anything under ten years old.
This has been consistent across 355, 360, 550, 575, 599 and 430. The 458 I had last year actually cost me nothing which was a very unique experience in 20 years of Ferrari ownership.
I have all the invoices to prove if anyone doubts me. They make painful reading.
My point it that it's a misconception to think you can run one on the cheap and it often feels like playing Russian Roulette with a £10k bill, and it has hit me three times over the years.
cgt2 said:
I did not say every year guys. But to maintain a Ferrari properly, if using it and putting decent miles (ie. 10k+) on, my costs have been always in the region of £5k with the occasional bill of more hence the figure of £10k mentioned.
In my experience, apart from regular servicing, there are always niggly little things that need doing every year though I am a perfectionist, others may ignore smaller stuff. It is not helped by truly extortionate parts prices. I know many people don't even bother servicing annually and don't care too much if their tyres are more than three years old.
The only older one that didn't cost much to maintain was a 308, but every V12 I've had it's easy to spend more than £5k on routine stuff. I have used independents for older cars but always main dealers for anything under ten years old.
This has been consistent across 355, 360, 550, 575, 599 and 430. The 458 I had last year actually cost me nothing which was a very unique experience in 20 years of Ferrari ownership.
I have all the invoices to prove if anyone doubts me. They make painful reading.
My point it that it's a misconception to think you can run one on the cheap and it often feels like playing Russian Roulette with a £10k bill, and it has hit me three times over the years.
Hmm. I'm not sure what you're counting in the £10k or £5k. I have owned my 348 for 16+ years and the 550 for 8+. The 348 costs about £2k per year (maintenance, tax, insurance) excluding petrol. The 550 is a bit more than that (and uses a lot more petrol). Whilst inevitably there will be a very big bill eventually, I can't really see why your cars should be consistently costing that much more. Admittedly, most years I am doing 'normal' Ferrari mileages (i.e. under 5k) I have had the odd year with a lot more. In my experience, apart from regular servicing, there are always niggly little things that need doing every year though I am a perfectionist, others may ignore smaller stuff. It is not helped by truly extortionate parts prices. I know many people don't even bother servicing annually and don't care too much if their tyres are more than three years old.
The only older one that didn't cost much to maintain was a 308, but every V12 I've had it's easy to spend more than £5k on routine stuff. I have used independents for older cars but always main dealers for anything under ten years old.
This has been consistent across 355, 360, 550, 575, 599 and 430. The 458 I had last year actually cost me nothing which was a very unique experience in 20 years of Ferrari ownership.
I have all the invoices to prove if anyone doubts me. They make painful reading.
My point it that it's a misconception to think you can run one on the cheap and it often feels like playing Russian Roulette with a £10k bill, and it has hit me three times over the years.
Jonathan
Jonny TVR said:
I'm interested in buying my dream classic a testarossa. I'm obviously aware of the appreciation of values and remember the classic car boom of the eighties and understand how different people say this boom is. I don't mind paying more than I would have done a couple of years back. However if I buy now am I going to get my fingers burnt .. I know it depends on how well I buy and how the economy post Brexit unfolds. Whats everyones view? I'm after an early car I think and not that concerned whether its RHD/ LHD. Not entirely sure where to start
What happened in the 80s boom? Did prices collapse and stay at those levels thereafter for a few years?
elms said:
There is an awful lot of rubbish going through the auctions at the moment.
Buyers are being more choosy and with deeper pockets are leaving the lesser cars to be bid by the wall.
This. Lots of lhd crap. Little history, fresh paint....remember too that the standard TR isn't really that good at all. Buyers are being more choosy and with deeper pockets are leaving the lesser cars to be bid by the wall.
The TR was the best selling Ferrari in its day,with just less than 10,000 (9,957) built for all three models during its 12 year production run. So its not exactly rare by Ferrari standards at all and I think that is having an impact and that has been slowly realised, as the classic car market was getting flooded with them about 18 months back.
Buy a good one at the right price and just enjoy it.
The big gains are in the everyday classics, Ford Escorts, Capri's and this market is still strong and growing.
Buy a good one at the right price and just enjoy it.
The big gains are in the everyday classics, Ford Escorts, Capri's and this market is still strong and growing.
rubystone said:
elms said:
There is an awful lot of rubbish going through the auctions at the moment.
Buyers are being more choosy and with deeper pockets are leaving the lesser cars to be bid by the wall.
This. Lots of lhd crap. Little history, fresh paint....remember too that the standard TR isn't really that good at all. Buyers are being more choosy and with deeper pockets are leaving the lesser cars to be bid by the wall.
More importantly - who was knowingly offering them all this rubbish?
Agreed that there is a lot of rubbish out there though - stocks of the really good stuff dwindling.
northo said:
What I want to know is when did people stop being choosy and start buying just anything? Doesn't make any sense to me that the scales have fallen from people's eyes and they have now seen the light and started to think about what they are buying......
More importantly - who was knowingly offering them all this rubbish?
Agreed that there is a lot of rubbish out there though - stocks of the really good stuff dwindling.
From personal experience I saw some diabolical stuff go through auctions last year. Usually LHD with minimal history, recently imported. More importantly - who was knowingly offering them all this rubbish?
Agreed that there is a lot of rubbish out there though - stocks of the really good stuff dwindling.
I was stood next to a very well known northern Supercar specialist (who has been on TV) looking at a LHD Testarossa and he was waxing lyrical about how it was a sure bet to double in value.
I then pointed out that three panels were a different colour and he quickly changed his tune. And he didn't bid on it either.
Many such cars were sold at overpriced levels last year to gullible buyers who didn't do proper due diligence. First rule of any supercar purchase, whether at the bottom or top of a market, is to examine everything in minute detail. Just based on what I saw at auctions (and the profile of excited buyers or should I say 'investors') I'm very sure many overpriced dogs have changed hands in the past two years driven by market hysteria.
Re cgt2's 10k point - if you drive, it is certainly possible
If I take servicing, petrol, insurance and storage into account both my 355 in the past and my FF now cost more than 10k per year - easily.
for the FF this is much more (euros as in Germany nowadays) - 6k insurance, 3.5k warranty, 1.30 per liter at 20-25 liters per 100km and I did 20k km last year (can't be bothered to do the math), tires new brake pads, general niggles - another 3-4k
The 355 had more repairs (manifolds, alternator come to mind) and much cheaper insurance but about the same petrol consumption
If I take servicing, petrol, insurance and storage into account both my 355 in the past and my FF now cost more than 10k per year - easily.
for the FF this is much more (euros as in Germany nowadays) - 6k insurance, 3.5k warranty, 1.30 per liter at 20-25 liters per 100km and I did 20k km last year (can't be bothered to do the math), tires new brake pads, general niggles - another 3-4k
The 355 had more repairs (manifolds, alternator come to mind) and much cheaper insurance but about the same petrol consumption
cgt2 said:
From personal experience I saw some diabolical stuff go through auctions last year. Usually LHD with minimal history, recently imported.
I was stood next to a very well known northern Supercar specialist (who has been on TV) looking at a LHD Testarossa and he was waxing lyrical about how it was a sure bet to double in value.
I then pointed out that three panels were a different colour and he quickly changed his tune. And he didn't bid on it either.
Many such cars were sold at overpriced levels last year to gullible buyers who didn't do proper due diligence. First rule of any supercar purchase, whether at the bottom or top of a market, is to examine everything in minute detail. Just based on what I saw at auctions (and the profile of excited buyers or should I say 'investors') I'm very sure many overpriced dogs have changed hands in the past two years driven by market hysteria.
Thanks. You've saved me the trouble of responding. I was stood next to a very well known northern Supercar specialist (who has been on TV) looking at a LHD Testarossa and he was waxing lyrical about how it was a sure bet to double in value.
I then pointed out that three panels were a different colour and he quickly changed his tune. And he didn't bid on it either.
Many such cars were sold at overpriced levels last year to gullible buyers who didn't do proper due diligence. First rule of any supercar purchase, whether at the bottom or top of a market, is to examine everything in minute detail. Just based on what I saw at auctions (and the profile of excited buyers or should I say 'investors') I'm very sure many overpriced dogs have changed hands in the past two years driven by market hysteria.
Friend passed on to me last weeks (21 September) Classic Car Weekly which includes a front page heading "UK Government Won't Rule Out Capital Gains Tax On Classics", with the main article on page 3. The article mentions that 'industry insiders believe HMR&C is looking at new tiers that would affect private individuals who effectively trade in classics with the main purpose of making a profit'. Included in the article is a comment from a spokesman from PWC and Hagerty insurance. Watch this space I guess?
gmarsh said:
Friend passed on to me last weeks (21 September) Classic Car Weekly which includes a front page heading "UK Government Won't Rule Out Capital Gains Tax On Classics", with the main article on page 3. The article mentions that 'industry insiders believe HMR&C is looking at new tiers that would affect private individuals who effectively trade in classics with the main purpose of making a profit'. Included in the article is a comment from a spokesman from PWC and Hagerty insurance. Watch this space I guess?
Would be the easiest thing in the world for them to implement and might net a few quid. They wouldn't even need the "tiering" IMO. Just add capital gains tax to any profit made on a car sale. It won't impact the vast majority of people as most people don't make profits on cars.Enforcing it might be a touch difficult for private sales. But probably no more so than anything else.
I'd bet money on it happening...
Murph7355 said:
gmarsh said:
Friend passed on to me last weeks (21 September) Classic Car Weekly which includes a front page heading "UK Government Won't Rule Out Capital Gains Tax On Classics", with the main article on page 3. The article mentions that 'industry insiders believe HMR&C is looking at new tiers that would affect private individuals who effectively trade in classics with the main purpose of making a profit'. Included in the article is a comment from a spokesman from PWC and Hagerty insurance. Watch this space I guess?
Would be the easiest thing in the world for them to implement and might net a few quid. They wouldn't even need the "tiering" IMO. Just add capital gains tax to any profit made on a car sale. It won't impact the vast majority of people as most people don't make profits on cars.Enforcing it might be a touch difficult for private sales. But probably no more so than anything else.
I'd bet money on it happening...
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