can old Ferrari’s be sorted
Discussion
MDL111 said:
LotusOmega375D said:
That's an interesting last comment. I was recently watching a youTube video of an American Mondial T coupe owner. He claimed that he only entrusted his maintenance to one guy and that an engine-out cambelt service costs him $10,000 to $12,000 dollars. In Sterling that equates to GBP 7500 - 9000.
So that's about 5 or 6 times the price that a UK owner would expect to pay an independent for the same job. Is Ferrari maintenance really so expensive in the USA?
From what I read online (obviously no first hand experience) US guys seem to always quote very high service/repair cost figures. Maybe they mostly pay main dealer prices - a cam belt service on a 355 at my dealer in Munich would probably be ruinous - I think they charge 180 euros per hour (can’t remember if that was pre or Post vat, but could well be pre)So that's about 5 or 6 times the price that a UK owner would expect to pay an independent for the same job. Is Ferrari maintenance really so expensive in the USA?
I use The Ferrari Centre as well. they're incredibly knowledgeable and experienced. Their hourly rate is very reasonable particularly in the winter when they offer a discount (worth remembering).
As far as BISPAL being told that taking the engine out is potentially 'dangerous' I don't buy that. That smacks to me like someone trying to justify taking a shortcut. If they can change the cambelts without needing to remove the engine then fair-play, just don't justify it by some erroneous claim that Ferrari's own procedure is 'dangerous'.
F355's like all cars often need more expenditure due to lack of use. Everyone is het-up on mileage and I had to spend a bit of money on my car which had only done 400 miles in the year prior to me buying it and 1000 miles in the previous 3 years.
Alternator - £100 for total refurbishment at http://burghfieldstarterandalternatorcentre.co.uk/ plus 1x hours labour to remove/refit at my local garage
A/C Compressor - £250 for complete new internals at http://automotivecompressor.co.uk/ plus 1x hour labour to remove/refit at my local garage
Stiff gear linkage
Clutch thrust bearing
A/C ECU* - now that was a £££'s problem to rectify as I had to source a replacement used ECU which are like hens teeth.
As far as BISPAL being told that taking the engine out is potentially 'dangerous' I don't buy that. That smacks to me like someone trying to justify taking a shortcut. If they can change the cambelts without needing to remove the engine then fair-play, just don't justify it by some erroneous claim that Ferrari's own procedure is 'dangerous'.
F355's like all cars often need more expenditure due to lack of use. Everyone is het-up on mileage and I had to spend a bit of money on my car which had only done 400 miles in the year prior to me buying it and 1000 miles in the previous 3 years.
Alternator - £100 for total refurbishment at http://burghfieldstarterandalternatorcentre.co.uk/ plus 1x hours labour to remove/refit at my local garage
A/C Compressor - £250 for complete new internals at http://automotivecompressor.co.uk/ plus 1x hour labour to remove/refit at my local garage
Stiff gear linkage
Clutch thrust bearing
A/C ECU* - now that was a £££'s problem to rectify as I had to source a replacement used ECU which are like hens teeth.
- Electronics (ECU's) are the modern rust. Getting replacements is becoming almost impossible as few cars are broken for spares and when one is the ECU's can go for big money. (I'm also told the F355 rear window commands *very* big money as well(?))
100 IAN said:
I use The Ferrari Centre as well. they're incredibly knowledgeable and experienced. Their hourly rate is very reasonable particularly in the winter when they offer a discount (worth remembering).
As far as BISPAL being told that taking the engine out is potentially 'dangerous' I don't buy that. That smacks to me like someone trying to justify taking a shortcut. If they can change the cambelts without needing to remove the engine then fair-play, just don't justify it by some erroneous claim that Ferrari's own procedure is 'dangerous'.
F355's like all cars often need more expenditure due to lack of use. Everyone is het-up on mileage and I had to spend a bit of money on my car which had only done 400 miles in the year prior to me buying it and 1000 miles in the previous 3 years.
Alternator - £100 for total refurbishment at http://burghfieldstarterandalternatorcentre.co.uk/ plus 1x hours labour to remove/refit at my local garage
A/C Compressor - £250 for complete new internals at http://automotivecompressor.co.uk/ plus 1x hour labour to remove/refit at my local garage
Stiff gear linkage
Clutch thrust bearing
A/C ECU* - now that was a £££'s problem to rectify as I had to source a replacement used ECU which are like hens teeth.
What he said regarding taking the engine out made sense to me, that it can stress the body shell and cause damage to other components. I understand the need to check other elements of drive-train and this might be best done with the engine out but there are very few cars that require this every 3 years, even super-cars. 99.99% of cars can be checked without taking the engine out. It is all very well for a new or nearly new car to have its engine taken out when all the connections are fresh but it makes sense that as the car gets older this could cause significant damage. I am not saying its the right or wrong approach, I don't have enough knowledge to know either way but as I said it just made sense to me. And the specialist in question found many, many more items that needed attending to than the 2 other places my car has been to, some of which were beyond dangerous and should never have been missed. So I know who I trust most regardless of how much they charged me for spark plugs. Anyway, as with anything in life, its all down to who you trust and who you are comfortable leaving you car with but the good news in the UK is prices are no-where near as astronomical as the USA.As far as BISPAL being told that taking the engine out is potentially 'dangerous' I don't buy that. That smacks to me like someone trying to justify taking a shortcut. If they can change the cambelts without needing to remove the engine then fair-play, just don't justify it by some erroneous claim that Ferrari's own procedure is 'dangerous'.
F355's like all cars often need more expenditure due to lack of use. Everyone is het-up on mileage and I had to spend a bit of money on my car which had only done 400 miles in the year prior to me buying it and 1000 miles in the previous 3 years.
Alternator - £100 for total refurbishment at http://burghfieldstarterandalternatorcentre.co.uk/ plus 1x hours labour to remove/refit at my local garage
A/C Compressor - £250 for complete new internals at http://automotivecompressor.co.uk/ plus 1x hour labour to remove/refit at my local garage
Stiff gear linkage
Clutch thrust bearing
A/C ECU* - now that was a £££'s problem to rectify as I had to source a replacement used ECU which are like hens teeth.
- Electronics (ECU's) are the modern rust. Getting replacements is becoming almost impossible as few cars are broken for spares and when one is the ECU's can go for big money. (I'm also told the F355 rear window commands *very* big money as well(?))
Ref 355 cam belt changes. My local Ferrari main dealer now does the cam belt change with the engine in as standard!! I have heard a lot of stuff about damage to the fuel tank etc doing it this way so I once went and watched them do the belts with the engine in. Absolutely no issues at all. Clearly it makes sense to drop the engine if other issues need sorting at the same time but to take the engine out simply for the belts would be crazy! (IMO)
jaisharma said:
They can be run fairly painlessly
My 328 over 18 years has required very little beyond servicing
308/328 are very simple and fairly robust
This ^My 328 over 18 years has required very little beyond servicing
308/328 are very simple and fairly robust
The 308s are pretty basic cars so as long as they are maintained and you replace items where aging may be an issue (eg hoses, rubber brake lines etc) they will be fine
Pretty much any old car will have issues, but you're right, most of the common ones will have modern fixes and good independents to install them. For example, my old 250 (1961) has a bigger, and modern, radiator, which means it doesn't overheat, even in stop start traffic in the middle of summer. And it's quite common now to replace points with electronic ignition.
When you buy an old car that hasn't been used regularly, you should expect breakdowns. My first experience of this was with an old VW camper that broke down pretty much every single time I used the blasted thing for the first 9 months. Almost offed the thing, but it taught me that it's a case of drive, it breaks, fix it, drive it, breaks, fix etc, repeat until it becomes reliable. I do use my cars for touring and this means they have to be as reliable as it's possible to make them. One consequence of this is that I'm on a hair trigger to replace anything that looks remotely suspect, it pays in the long run. And one other thing you should invest in is AA membership and install their app on your phone. You're bound to need it at some point. As long as you go in with your eyes open, you'll have a blast.
When you buy an old car that hasn't been used regularly, you should expect breakdowns. My first experience of this was with an old VW camper that broke down pretty much every single time I used the blasted thing for the first 9 months. Almost offed the thing, but it taught me that it's a case of drive, it breaks, fix it, drive it, breaks, fix etc, repeat until it becomes reliable. I do use my cars for touring and this means they have to be as reliable as it's possible to make them. One consequence of this is that I'm on a hair trigger to replace anything that looks remotely suspect, it pays in the long run. And one other thing you should invest in is AA membership and install their app on your phone. You're bound to need it at some point. As long as you go in with your eyes open, you'll have a blast.
johnnyreggae said:
Are they really that unreliable that there's what amounts to an industry of custom parts - I'm not so sure - yes parts wear and for your sort of budget there may be a lot that are due or overdue for replacement but buy well with a good inspection and the experience above is less likely - especially as you seem to be looking at newer cars
No they arent. No worse than say a Renault or a FIAT - not surprising since they are a big red FIAT. For example, I would back almost any Ferrari enine against the Porker engines ( non turbo) in the 996 and 997. The gearboxes are solid. The electronics are - well Italian even if man bits do come from Germany. Things like leather and door seals and seats mechanisms - well they are FIAT in quality terms
If you bought a 328 then you could have a car that is as reliable as any other in that era. If you bought a 458 then you would have a reliable car . Generally they are mechanically quite good but with weak electrics and cosmetic fittings.
The thing to remember however, and this applies to other old supercars, is that the car you may buy might be cheap by comparison with modern cars, but the spares and service will still cost supercar money.
Bispal said:
What he said regarding taking the engine out made sense to me, that it can stress the body shell and cause damage to other components. I understand the need to check other elements of drive-train and this might be best done with the engine out but there are very few cars that require this every 3 years, even super-cars. 99.99% of cars can be checked without taking the engine out. It is all very well for a new or nearly new car to have its engine taken out when all the connections are fresh but it makes sense that as the car gets older this could cause significant damage. I am not saying its the right or wrong approach, I don't have enough knowledge to know either way but as I said it just made sense to me. And the specialist in question found many, many more items that needed attending to than the 2 other places my car has been to, some of which were beyond dangerous and should never have been missed. So I know who I trust most regardless of how much they charged me for spark plugs. Anyway, as with anything in life, its all down to who you trust and who you are comfortable leaving you car with but the good news in the UK is prices are no-where near as astronomical as the USA.
The point you are missing is that the Ferrari was designed to have the cam belt serviced by taking the engine out. The installation of the engine is designed to make it easier than it would be in, say, a Jag, and the body shell will not 9in any way be distorted by taking weight away from it. The correct point is that repeated connecting and disconnecting of things like electrical sockets isnt good.Turning to running costs, some things are horrendous. A new soft top for a 360 or 430 is near £10k. Your firendly main dealer will charge you £175 for 10 litres of oil at a service ( if you let him) . Replace the two engine ECUs on a 360, which can only be done as a pai, and you are way over £1500. A set of official rims for a 360 is like £3k. What would all these costs be on a Ford or Totyota? Way less.
Leaving the engine in on a 355 to do a belt change is about cutting corners/costs and I won't believe anyone who says otherwise.
Look at the pictures of the an engine-in belt change and it is nothing more than a bodge job.
Menu servicing is the problem and it should be about value not lowest price. It's easy to save money as above with ancillary overhauls, service parts etc and then spend the money where it counts.
Yes they can be sorted but like any old car sourcing is the challenge but many people enjoy that.......Be wary of eBay though as most parts can be bought new for what some chancers on there are asking.
Look at the pictures of the an engine-in belt change and it is nothing more than a bodge job.
Menu servicing is the problem and it should be about value not lowest price. It's easy to save money as above with ancillary overhauls, service parts etc and then spend the money where it counts.
Yes they can be sorted but like any old car sourcing is the challenge but many people enjoy that.......Be wary of eBay though as most parts can be bought new for what some chancers on there are asking.
Bispal said:
Most specialists in the UK no longer take the engine out to change the belts as it can be done by removing the fuel tank, In fact one very reputable specialist recently told me that they no longer recommend taking the engine out. It causes to much stress on the body shell and the buttress's in particular (which as we know are sensitive). Additionally the removal can damage connections, hoses, gaskets etc, which will then all need replacing. So the cam belt change is not a huge issue, around £1,500 on top of a standard £600 service every 3 years.....
This advice is incorrect. The engines on that era of cars were designed to be removed for service. To not do so is just a pure cost cutting exercise,largely bought about by the price war that’s been going on between the main dealers and the bigger independents for a good few years. Added to this there are new “specialists” opening every week so with more choice and competition prices are reduced. There aren’t many countries where you could get a cheaper rate on having a Ferrari fixed versus a bmw or Audi....Cerberaherts said:
Bispal said:
Most specialists in the UK no longer take the engine out to change the belts as it can be done by removing the fuel tank, In fact one very reputable specialist recently told me that they no longer recommend taking the engine out. It causes to much stress on the body shell and the buttress's in particular (which as we know are sensitive). Additionally the removal can damage connections, hoses, gaskets etc, which will then all need replacing. So the cam belt change is not a huge issue, around £1,500 on top of a standard £600 service every 3 years.....
This advice is incorrect. The engines on that era of cars were designed to be removed for service. To not do so is just a pure cost cutting exercise,largely bought about by the price war that’s been going on between the main dealers and the bigger independents for a good few years. Added to this there are new “specialists” opening every week so with more choice and competition prices are reduced. There aren’t many countries where you could get a cheaper rate on having a Ferrari fixed versus a bmw or Audi....Bispal said:
The advice is not incorrect and its not mine, its what I was told by 2 of the 3 specialists I approached. I trust the specialists I don't trust commentators on forums. I would urge anyone considering purchasing an F355 to speak to 2 or 3 specialists, listen to what they say and make their own mind up. By specialists I mean the ones that have been around for 10 years plus and have very good reputations, like the ones I spoke to. But you must satisfy yourself and take anything said online with a pinch of salt and at best a starting point for your own research.
With no disrespect intended Cerberaherts knows more about fixing Ferraris than anyone on this forum. When a main dealer was unable to diagnose an issue on my 550 because they lacked the knowledge I took it to Ed and he sorted it. He doesnt cut corners but prices are very reasonable and every time he worked on one of my Ferraris he would spend an hour showing me the car on the ramp and talking me through everything. Compare to the main dealer money grab and a 17year old trainee and I know who I want working on my Ferrari.Edit: Sorry just realised you don't appear to know Cerberaherts is one of the very best Ferrari specialists in the country. I know he's not self-absorbed but just look up who he is and the quality of his work. I've owned Ferraris for 20 years and he is genuinely right up there in the top 3 mechanics I have encountered in all those years.
Edited by cgt2 on Monday 1st January 15:30
Bispal said:
Most specialists in the UK no longer take the engine out to change the belts
This is codswallop. If you made a list of the top five or six independent Ferrari specialists in the UK, I can guarantee that every single one would take the engine out. I appreciate you may have asked a couple of mechanics who've been in the game for 10 years or more, but I'm talking about those single-marque specialists that have been doing this for 30+ or 40+ years.
-Ed
Edited by torquespeak on Thursday 4th January 01:06
Edited by torquespeak on Thursday 4th January 01:16
torquespeak said:
Bispal said:
Most specialists in the UK no longer take the engine out to change the belts
This is codswallop. If you made a list of the top five or six independent Ferrari specialists in the UK, I can guarantee that every single one would take the engine out. I appreciate you may have asked a couple of mechanics who've been in the game for 10 years or more, but I'm talking about those single-marque specialists that have been doing this for 30+ or 40+ years.
-Ed
Edited by torquespeak on Thursday 4th January 01:06
Edited by torquespeak on Thursday 4th January 01:16
Had an F355 for more than 3 years, engine was taken out on both cambelt services. Once by an independent specialist Hoyle Fox in Maldon Essex (who are great) and also by Lancaster Ferrari - equally excellent service.
Some independent's leave the engine in and advocate this, but this is purely a cost cutting issue. I have no particular preference so long as the belt is changed correctly. The only point I'd make is that with the engine removed the other parts of the engine and ancillaries can be checked more thoroughly.
As far as running costs and reliability are concerned for this and other models, there are horror stories all over the internet for all types of cars, these are no different. A 20 + year old car will wear out and things will need replacing.
2 friends with Audi A5's both needed new gearboxes at a cost of £5k +
Friend has had 2 Ford Smax completely fail and need new engines within 3 years.
Don't get me started on Range Rovers!
Some independent's leave the engine in and advocate this, but this is purely a cost cutting issue. I have no particular preference so long as the belt is changed correctly. The only point I'd make is that with the engine removed the other parts of the engine and ancillaries can be checked more thoroughly.
As far as running costs and reliability are concerned for this and other models, there are horror stories all over the internet for all types of cars, these are no different. A 20 + year old car will wear out and things will need replacing.
2 friends with Audi A5's both needed new gearboxes at a cost of £5k +
Friend has had 2 Ford Smax completely fail and need new engines within 3 years.
Don't get me started on Range Rovers!
Bispal said:
I have asked 3 of the 'top' specialists and 2 said they would not take the engine out. ... don't shoot the messenger ...
@Bispal... Nobody is shooting the messenger. If you look at the previous replies, nobody is suggesting that *you* are giving poor advice. Rather, everyone has said that whoever told you this is talking nonsense.As I said, I appreciate you are only passing on information, and the rest of us are merely countering that with advice from - to be blunt - people with a lot more experience.
I would personally argue that if they have advised not to take an engine out, then the individual or company is not - in fact a "top specialist" (though perhaps they market themselves as such).
i.e. you're not going to find anyone with the surname Cottingham, Houghton, Hoyle, Fosker, Collingwood or Cartwright telling you to leave the engine in...
-Ed
torquespeak said:
Bispal said:
I have asked 3 of the 'top' specialists and 2 said they would not take the engine out. ... don't shoot the messenger ...
@Bispal... Nobody is shooting the messenger. If you look at the previous replies, nobody is suggesting that *you* are giving poor advice. Rather, everyone has said that whoever told you this is talking nonsense.As I said, I appreciate you are only passing on information, and the rest of us are merely countering that with advice from - to be blunt - people with a lot more experience.
I would personally argue that if they have advised not to take an engine out, then the individual or company is not - in fact a "top specialist" (though perhaps they market themselves as such).
i.e. you're not going to find anyone with the surname Cottingham, Houghton, Hoyle, Fosker, Collingwood or Cartwright telling you to leave the engine in...
-Ed
Reason's why it's better to drop the engine out to change the belt/belts on 348's and 355's:
1) It means the engine coolant has to be replaced every three years.
2) It gives the mechanic a chance to have a proper look all around the engine for possible issues.
3) It creates an ideal opportunity to repaint the cam covers and make them look new again.
4) It's the proper way to carry out the job - The way Ferrari/Pininfarina designed the car to get the job done!
Gassing Station | Ferrari Classics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff