An open letter to the Mods
Discussion
Generally it's a thank you to the moderation team who do a thankless task, but recent events started looking like it wasn't PH's finest hour, until the support I saw whilst stopped from posting and those that defended me against the usual trolls.
.
My thanks to Ben and especially Adam who have engaged over the last few days.
It's been an interesting time, I see it's outed quite a few duplicate accounts which I hope the mods will look at, and exposed the usual suspects who took the opportunity to spread further lies, untruths and general rubbish, without being able to back up any of their claims. The usual people who claim 'cancel culture' then engage in it themselves.
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
Moving on, one of the things I do is to look at processes and identify where they could be improved. I hope my following suggestions are helpful and promote discussion.
1. It's claimed I had a warning about my posting style last year. I honestly have no recollection of this and if so would have modified my posting style. I have a date, yet was active on 74 threads in that time (so much for the claims I'm only on the trump thread).
With so many of the detractors acting like Mods, it may be it was missed, so my suggestion would be to attach a label to the Name field of the Mod - showing they are a moderator on the site, so that correct gravity can be attributed to their posts.
2. Instant ban for minor infractions should be reconsidered and all of the moderation team given clear guidelines so that member see a consistant moderation across the site.
3. The Info@ account recommended by Big Al, should actually be monitored and a response given, even if it's 'we've read it - no chance'. It's a black hole account. There's no discussion possible at present, no route to reach an understanding, no dialogue possible. I honestly believe if there wasn't support from other members this would have been left as a ban.
4. For minor infractions can I suggest a sliding scale. Obviously for major infractions the complete immediate ban should stand.
a. An initial warning both on the thread and in an Email/DM to the member, that they have transgressed and further transgressions would cause enforcement. (threats of Kinky's ban hammer). The warning on the thread would indicate unacceptable behaviour not only to the member but others also. The DM/Email, because sometimes threads move very quickly and things can be missed.
b. Sin bin - to be used for minor time out periods - 7 days say for continued transgressions.
c. Ban - for continued infringements
Notes on this.
Placing a member in the Sin Bin removes all posting rights. Putting a member into the Sin Bin because one of the mod team want to talk to him, but only works Mon-Fri isn't really acceptable, especially when that member is unable to defend themselves from the untruthful vilification that occured.
A ban only works if that person is actually banned. More effort needs to be made into identifying the returning banned members and duplicate accounts. It's pointless banning someone to see exactly the same person, with the same posting style pop up again and again with new accounts, pushing the same diatribe they were banned for.
5. Reconsider the rules and make clear the punishment - Ben has stated there is a discussion now around rule 16 and I welcome that. I thought my posting style of the first few lines of the story and the link to the article was acceptable - obviously not.
"Rule 16 - Do not copy and paste content from newspapers, news sites or other websites. This is a breach of their copyright and any such threads will be deleted."
Not no mention of banning - deleted content only. I took this to mean not to copy whole articles, but events from the last week look to mean any part at all... I look forward to the clarification that is promised.
Again, my thanks (generally) to the mods who perform a mostly hidden, thankless task. My thanks to those that defended me when PH decreed I would not be able to defend myself. To those sad people who sent gloating, abusive emails and the one person who thought it fun to threaten me and my family - really? It's a discussion forum. Grow up.
.
My thanks to Ben and especially Adam who have engaged over the last few days.
It's been an interesting time, I see it's outed quite a few duplicate accounts which I hope the mods will look at, and exposed the usual suspects who took the opportunity to spread further lies, untruths and general rubbish, without being able to back up any of their claims. The usual people who claim 'cancel culture' then engage in it themselves.
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
Moving on, one of the things I do is to look at processes and identify where they could be improved. I hope my following suggestions are helpful and promote discussion.
1. It's claimed I had a warning about my posting style last year. I honestly have no recollection of this and if so would have modified my posting style. I have a date, yet was active on 74 threads in that time (so much for the claims I'm only on the trump thread).
With so many of the detractors acting like Mods, it may be it was missed, so my suggestion would be to attach a label to the Name field of the Mod - showing they are a moderator on the site, so that correct gravity can be attributed to their posts.
2. Instant ban for minor infractions should be reconsidered and all of the moderation team given clear guidelines so that member see a consistant moderation across the site.
3. The Info@ account recommended by Big Al, should actually be monitored and a response given, even if it's 'we've read it - no chance'. It's a black hole account. There's no discussion possible at present, no route to reach an understanding, no dialogue possible. I honestly believe if there wasn't support from other members this would have been left as a ban.
4. For minor infractions can I suggest a sliding scale. Obviously for major infractions the complete immediate ban should stand.
a. An initial warning both on the thread and in an Email/DM to the member, that they have transgressed and further transgressions would cause enforcement. (threats of Kinky's ban hammer). The warning on the thread would indicate unacceptable behaviour not only to the member but others also. The DM/Email, because sometimes threads move very quickly and things can be missed.
b. Sin bin - to be used for minor time out periods - 7 days say for continued transgressions.
c. Ban - for continued infringements
Notes on this.
Placing a member in the Sin Bin removes all posting rights. Putting a member into the Sin Bin because one of the mod team want to talk to him, but only works Mon-Fri isn't really acceptable, especially when that member is unable to defend themselves from the untruthful vilification that occured.
A ban only works if that person is actually banned. More effort needs to be made into identifying the returning banned members and duplicate accounts. It's pointless banning someone to see exactly the same person, with the same posting style pop up again and again with new accounts, pushing the same diatribe they were banned for.
5. Reconsider the rules and make clear the punishment - Ben has stated there is a discussion now around rule 16 and I welcome that. I thought my posting style of the first few lines of the story and the link to the article was acceptable - obviously not.
"Rule 16 - Do not copy and paste content from newspapers, news sites or other websites. This is a breach of their copyright and any such threads will be deleted."
Not no mention of banning - deleted content only. I took this to mean not to copy whole articles, but events from the last week look to mean any part at all... I look forward to the clarification that is promised.
Again, my thanks (generally) to the mods who perform a mostly hidden, thankless task. My thanks to those that defended me when PH decreed I would not be able to defend myself. To those sad people who sent gloating, abusive emails and the one person who thought it fun to threaten me and my family - really? It's a discussion forum. Grow up.
I've no direct experience of being banned yet, but this brings up a couple of ideas that could be useful:
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Similarly, banned users: If a user is banned from posting in a thread, any posts by that user should be visually flagged.
Emails/DMs: The current system "leaks" your email address when you message someone. A system where DMs stayed on the PH platform rather than going via email would avoid this.
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Similarly, banned users: If a user is banned from posting in a thread, any posts by that user should be visually flagged.
Emails/DMs: The current system "leaks" your email address when you message someone. A system where DMs stayed on the PH platform rather than going via email would avoid this.
silentbrown said:
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Why?Alot of the mods are genuine users of the site, just because they post on a thread doesn't mean they are actually modding it.
Also, why do we need to know who a mod is? If a mod pops up on a thread and makes you behave differently, maybe you should look at how you were going to behave in the first place
zetec said:
silentbrown said:
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Why?Alot of the mods are genuine users of the site, just because they post on a thread doesn't mean they are actually modding it.
Also, why do we need to know who a mod is? If a mod pops up on a thread and makes you behave differently, maybe you should look at how you were going to behave in the first place
zetec said:
silentbrown said:
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Why?Alot of the mods are genuine users of the site, just because they post on a thread doesn't mean they are actually modding it.
Also, why do we need to know who a mod is? If a mod pops up on a thread and makes you behave differently, maybe you should look at how you were going to behave in the first place
Feedback from moderation is non-existent. If you report a thread you feel like you are casting a message in a bottle from the local dock. Unless you return to the reported post you have no idea if (any) action was taken.
The moderation team really does appear to treat the users with contempt. And if you think that's not the case I refer to the stiffling of any meaningful debate in website feedback by simply closing the threads that they don't want to answer.
Two comments. Rule 16. I have definitely in the past seen a wording which stated that posting part of the content of a news article together with a link to that website to allow readers to read the full piece was allowed. Had a quick look in the usual places and can no longer find it, but it has been the accepted position.
This needs to be clarified. If you intend to apply rule 16 as written with no exception and an instant ban when discovered then you need to police it properly, otherwise it's just like one of these laws on the statute books that many folks ignore repeatedly, then someone who isn't a problem normally falls foul and feels hard done to in a "why me and why this" moment.
Secondly, the comment in the OP about discussion of moderated posts. It's a black hole, even trying to understand what actual rule has been broken in order to learn for the future is almost never answered, exception here being Big Al. The deafening silence just earns distrust and disrespect. It is appreciated that many times posts that in themselves are not breaking any rules do get swept up in general tidy ups.
Sorry a third thing, comment by OP about greater effort needs to be done in dealing with returning bannees, that x1,000, we all know who they are, some don't even try to hide it.
This needs to be clarified. If you intend to apply rule 16 as written with no exception and an instant ban when discovered then you need to police it properly, otherwise it's just like one of these laws on the statute books that many folks ignore repeatedly, then someone who isn't a problem normally falls foul and feels hard done to in a "why me and why this" moment.
Secondly, the comment in the OP about discussion of moderated posts. It's a black hole, even trying to understand what actual rule has been broken in order to learn for the future is almost never answered, exception here being Big Al. The deafening silence just earns distrust and disrespect. It is appreciated that many times posts that in themselves are not breaking any rules do get swept up in general tidy ups.
Sorry a third thing, comment by OP about greater effort needs to be done in dealing with returning bannees, that x1,000, we all know who they are, some don't even try to hide it.
rscott said:
zetec said:
silentbrown said:
Moderator "badges". It's unclear who's a mod and who isn't. Posts from PH staff (Ben, Matt) get coloured differently - maybe posts from Mods should be the same?
Why?Alot of the mods are genuine users of the site, just because they post on a thread doesn't mean they are actually modding it.
Also, why do we need to know who a mod is? If a mod pops up on a thread and makes you behave differently, maybe you should look at how you were going to behave in the first place
Byker28i said:
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
I also think that if it were obvious a mod was posting on a thread, it would be obvious a mod is reading it's content and you might mind your Ps and Qs a little better. So a coloured post would help in that respect.
I would suggest the problem comes with any views held within that post being mistaken as Pistonheads or it's owner's views on that subject.
I've been sin-binned and banned once. The sin bin was probably fair enough (if I recall correctly, what I posted could be misconstrued as racist) however than ban I felt was harsh.
In the event, the moderation's looked into (a rarity it seems) and deemed harsh so a seven day suspension was issued.
The one thing I do know is it was pretty obvious I was banned due to a pile on by other members who didn't appreciate my stirling wit and humour. Fair enough.
However it probably would have been no more difficult to either ban my from posting for a certain amount of time or simply from that thread.
I actually think the perma-ban encourages more people to come back under other usernames rather than coming back on their known names.
I would suggest the problem comes with any views held within that post being mistaken as Pistonheads or it's owner's views on that subject.
I've been sin-binned and banned once. The sin bin was probably fair enough (if I recall correctly, what I posted could be misconstrued as racist) however than ban I felt was harsh.
In the event, the moderation's looked into (a rarity it seems) and deemed harsh so a seven day suspension was issued.
The one thing I do know is it was pretty obvious I was banned due to a pile on by other members who didn't appreciate my stirling wit and humour. Fair enough.
However it probably would have been no more difficult to either ban my from posting for a certain amount of time or simply from that thread.
I actually think the perma-ban encourages more people to come back under other usernames rather than coming back on their known names.
It's a forum, not some sort of essential service.
No-one will be actually harmed by being unable to post for a few days, or if they will suffer genuine harm maybe they should look at the root causes of why they feel that way.
Forum moderation is a thankless task, people don't always get things right, but PH is an absolute zoo where generally anything goes compared to a lot of more tightly controlled forums. Be careful what you wish for, if you want consistent application of all the rules across all the threads PH will be a much quieter place.
No-one will be actually harmed by being unable to post for a few days, or if they will suffer genuine harm maybe they should look at the root causes of why they feel that way.
Forum moderation is a thankless task, people don't always get things right, but PH is an absolute zoo where generally anything goes compared to a lot of more tightly controlled forums. Be careful what you wish for, if you want consistent application of all the rules across all the threads PH will be a much quieter place.
robuk said:
Byker28i said:
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
I don't want to trivialise your post Byker but it does come across a bit peeved-that-I-got-banned/ticked off.
charltjr said:
It's a forum, not some sort of essential service.
No-one will be actually harmed by being unable to post for a few days, or if they will suffer genuine harm maybe they should look at the root causes of why they feel that way.
Forum moderation is a thankless task, people don't always get things right, but PH is an absolute zoo where generally anything goes compared to a lot of more tightly controlled forums. Be careful what you wish for, if you want consistent application of all the rules across all the threads PH will be a much quieter place.
I think the issue in this case was that the user had been told they'd been permanently banned after a single incident. Not that they'd been sin binned or warned as the rules say they should have been.No-one will be actually harmed by being unable to post for a few days, or if they will suffer genuine harm maybe they should look at the root causes of why they feel that way.
Forum moderation is a thankless task, people don't always get things right, but PH is an absolute zoo where generally anything goes compared to a lot of more tightly controlled forums. Be careful what you wish for, if you want consistent application of all the rules across all the threads PH will be a much quieter place.
It's the inconsistency and lack of transparency in moderating actions which frustrates posters.
charltjr said:
No-one will be actually harmed by being unable to post for a few days, or if they will suffer genuine harm maybe they should look at the root causes of why they feel that way.
The banning of people for ever seems somewhat draconian - no wonder they come back with different user names.I also think mods should be tagged. There's sometimes a tone of mob bullying against a member, which may or may not be deserved, but certainly isn't pretty.
One thing I've seen on other forums : deleted posts don't just disappear, but are replaced with a placeholder "this post has been deleted by a moderator".
This makes it clear what has happened, rather that posts just vanishing.
That said, on the whole I think the mods generally do a good job.
And as for duplicate accounts - instant, permanent ban is my preferred punishment.
This makes it clear what has happened, rather that posts just vanishing.
That said, on the whole I think the mods generally do a good job.
And as for duplicate accounts - instant, permanent ban is my preferred punishment.
AW111 said:
One thing I've seen on other forums : deleted posts don't just disappear, but are replaced with a placeholder "this post has been deleted by a moderator".
This makes it clear what has happened, rather that posts just vanishing.
That said, on the whole I think the mods generally do a good job.
And as for duplicate accounts - instant, permanent ban is my preferred punishment.
Duplicate accounts are a nightmare to police - everything identifiable on a device can be spoofed and for a free forum running custom code I'm sure there just isn't the budget for checking it - Twitter is massive but the vast majority political posters on there just seem to duplicate accounts stirring up trouble, bots, etc. so for all we know NP&E could just be a dozen posters and their troll accounts all arguing with each other.This makes it clear what has happened, rather that posts just vanishing.
That said, on the whole I think the mods generally do a good job.
And as for duplicate accounts - instant, permanent ban is my preferred punishment.
popeyewhite said:
robuk said:
Byker28i said:
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
I don't want to trivialise your post Byker but it does come across a bit peeved-that-I-got-banned/ticked off.
popeyewhite said:
robuk said:
Byker28i said:
Anyone who thinks PH and other popular forums doesn't attract the attention of people who are paid to sow the seeds of dischord sadly have their heads in the ground. We are indeed seeing more and more of this on here. Tartan Pixie nailed it but there's also who just seem to enjoy trolling.
I don't want to trivialise your post Byker but it does come across a bit peeved-that-I-got-banned/ticked off.
aparna said:
The technical solution seems easy - require a minimum of 500 posts and 3 months service, for access to NPE.
You probably could do this with something like zapier, if the bods are too busy.
There's already a delay before you can start posting.You probably could do this with something like zapier, if the bods are too busy.
Adding minimum post count requirements just leads to low quality content/spam as people bulk their post count.
Plus you just create (even more of) an echo chamber between the same few established posters.
Gassing Station | Website Feedback | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff