MP4 12C Deprecation and Brand Value
Discussion
I find the range of views on the 12C very interesting - seems to provoke quite polarised opinions.
I had an early (August 2011) car which I sold after two/three months, mainly as a result of being fed up with frequent problems (three trips back to MTC, another to dealer, plus a couple of visits to me by mclaren engineers). So I waited, and waited, and waited, then bought a new car a couple of months ago. Now it finally seems to have had the issues straightened out, hell it even has a satnav now (still probably one of the worst navs invented but it might just be my not using it properly, not sure yet).
From a driving perspective though the car blows me away. Sure it's digital, as all the magazines KEEP repeating, but its a digital age - even the new 991GT3, which purists have loved to hold up and wave in everyone's face as the last bastion of "old style" driving, can only be had now as a double clutcher. Sure we can all hanker back to the old days, of notchy gearchanges and whatever else, but if we leave this aside for a moment I don't honestly see how the 12C digital experience varies much from a 458. I agree the mclaren introduction in 2011 was nothing short of dismal - they put out a car that simply wasn't ready, did a pretty poor job of making up for it, and there was definitely on overhang on the market.
My two cars immediately preceding the current 12c were a 458 Spider and F12, and if I'm honest the McLaren is comfortably my favourite of those. I prefer the cabin to the others (though F12 is close), find it more fun to drive, and slightly less look-at-me shouty than the Ferrari's. Is it digital? Of course. Would it likely save me from a nasty accident if I cocked up. Probably yes though all those digital gizmos that reduce the driving experience somewhat. Is it more digital than other similar cars? Not to my mind.
That's all IMO though, sure many will disagree,.....
I had an early (August 2011) car which I sold after two/three months, mainly as a result of being fed up with frequent problems (three trips back to MTC, another to dealer, plus a couple of visits to me by mclaren engineers). So I waited, and waited, and waited, then bought a new car a couple of months ago. Now it finally seems to have had the issues straightened out, hell it even has a satnav now (still probably one of the worst navs invented but it might just be my not using it properly, not sure yet).
From a driving perspective though the car blows me away. Sure it's digital, as all the magazines KEEP repeating, but its a digital age - even the new 991GT3, which purists have loved to hold up and wave in everyone's face as the last bastion of "old style" driving, can only be had now as a double clutcher. Sure we can all hanker back to the old days, of notchy gearchanges and whatever else, but if we leave this aside for a moment I don't honestly see how the 12C digital experience varies much from a 458. I agree the mclaren introduction in 2011 was nothing short of dismal - they put out a car that simply wasn't ready, did a pretty poor job of making up for it, and there was definitely on overhang on the market.
My two cars immediately preceding the current 12c were a 458 Spider and F12, and if I'm honest the McLaren is comfortably my favourite of those. I prefer the cabin to the others (though F12 is close), find it more fun to drive, and slightly less look-at-me shouty than the Ferrari's. Is it digital? Of course. Would it likely save me from a nasty accident if I cocked up. Probably yes though all those digital gizmos that reduce the driving experience somewhat. Is it more digital than other similar cars? Not to my mind.
That's all IMO though, sure many will disagree,.....
DeltaOne said:
I find the range of views on the 12C very interesting - seems to provoke quite polarised opinions.
Now it finally seems to have had the issues straightened out, hell it even has a satnav now (still probably one of the worst navs invented but it might just be my not using it properly, not sure yet).
From a driving perspective though the car blows me away. Sure it's digital, as all the magazines KEEP repeating, but its a digital age - even the new 991GT3, which purists have loved to hold up and wave in everyone's face as the last bastion of "old style" driving, can only be had now as a double clutcher. Sure we can all hanker back to the old days, of notchy gearchanges and whatever else, but if we leave this aside for a moment I don't honestly see how the 12C digital experience varies much from a 458.
My two cars immediately preceding the current 12c were a 458 Spider and F12, and if I'm honest the McLaren is comfortably my favourite of those. I prefer the cabin to the others (though F12 is close), find it more fun to drive, and slightly less look-at-me shouty than the Ferrari's. Is it digital? Of course. Would it likely save me from a nasty accident if I cocked up. Probably yes though all those digital gizmos that reduce the driving experience somewhat. Is it more digital than other similar cars? Not to my mind.
That's all IMO though, sure many will disagree,.....
Fully agreed on the above. I am always surprised when the 12c is criticised for being digital and having the computers drive the car for you but the 458 which is every bit as digital/electronics dependent seems to escape much of the same criticism which applies equally to it.Now it finally seems to have had the issues straightened out, hell it even has a satnav now (still probably one of the worst navs invented but it might just be my not using it properly, not sure yet).
From a driving perspective though the car blows me away. Sure it's digital, as all the magazines KEEP repeating, but its a digital age - even the new 991GT3, which purists have loved to hold up and wave in everyone's face as the last bastion of "old style" driving, can only be had now as a double clutcher. Sure we can all hanker back to the old days, of notchy gearchanges and whatever else, but if we leave this aside for a moment I don't honestly see how the 12C digital experience varies much from a 458.
My two cars immediately preceding the current 12c were a 458 Spider and F12, and if I'm honest the McLaren is comfortably my favourite of those. I prefer the cabin to the others (though F12 is close), find it more fun to drive, and slightly less look-at-me shouty than the Ferrari's. Is it digital? Of course. Would it likely save me from a nasty accident if I cocked up. Probably yes though all those digital gizmos that reduce the driving experience somewhat. Is it more digital than other similar cars? Not to my mind.
That's all IMO though, sure many will disagree,.....
I've only just seen this thread but I completely agree with APOLO. Being one of the early depositors for a 12C, I had numerous conversations as to the environment McLaren wanted to create for its used cars. I was told that the dealer wanted to create and nurture relationships in the long term so that very few cars would be sold outside the dealer network. It's ridiculous then that the dealers don't even want to get into a conversation about buying cars back.
McLaren has overpriced its cars and the sooner it corrects its pricing the better it is for everyone. Till McLaren gets its act together I'm not going to be a customer for a new or used car be it the 12 C or the P13. I'd rather spend my money with a manufacturer which knows what it's doing. If anyone is in any doubt regarding pricing on the 12C, McLaren slashed its own prices in Australia to the level of an R8 which I think is about right. You can read about it in this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=128...
McLaren has overpriced its cars and the sooner it corrects its pricing the better it is for everyone. Till McLaren gets its act together I'm not going to be a customer for a new or used car be it the 12 C or the P13. I'd rather spend my money with a manufacturer which knows what it's doing. If anyone is in any doubt regarding pricing on the 12C, McLaren slashed its own prices in Australia to the level of an R8 which I think is about right. You can read about it in this thread:
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=128...
Lads on the residuals I was recently looking for one of these (amongst a shortlist of cars) and what I can say for definite is that at the £140-150k level they are holding firm and selling. Maybe trade bid is some distance below that (and a person who bought one new considers the bid so insulting that it amounts to constructive dismissal) but from the perspective of a 2nd hand purchaser, there was very little budging or haggling on price and I missed 3 cars which sold under my nose while I was in the process of trying to figure out what I wanted.
yes new car prices (for sports cars) have gone through the roof especially with options list. I was reading through the F type options list. Jag have got their marketing guys well on tune, the basic f type standard wheels are so ugly that everyone will have to tick the upgrade box which is min £500 and more likely near £1k for a decent set of wheels let alone all the interior options.
I would love to know what the manaufacturer sales figures are for the 12c for this year to date. Im guessing now supply is sorted and the car has been "out" for a while that sales are dipping? For example Im pretty sure the 458 italia has dropped off significantly as more buyers are chasing the spiders.
I share Camlet's view, classics are the way forward! failing that if i cant afford to enter that market in the next couple of years then i will stick to picking off 2nd or 3rd hand prancing horses, let someone else tick the spec sheet adding £30k and I will pay a couple of grand for it down the line.
I would love to know what the manaufacturer sales figures are for the 12c for this year to date. Im guessing now supply is sorted and the car has been "out" for a while that sales are dipping? For example Im pretty sure the 458 italia has dropped off significantly as more buyers are chasing the spiders.
I share Camlet's view, classics are the way forward! failing that if i cant afford to enter that market in the next couple of years then i will stick to picking off 2nd or 3rd hand prancing horses, let someone else tick the spec sheet adding £30k and I will pay a couple of grand for it down the line.
f1ten said:
...I would love to know what the manaufacturer sales figures are for the 12c for this year to date...
The Government statistics website only goes up to March currently but shows 28 MP4-12C plus 12 missing a model so 40 altogether but no split between spider and fixed roof. 219 + 7 are the equivalent figures for all of 2012. For comparison, Ferrari 458 shows 33 fixed roof plus 102 spiders up to March and 275 + 125 (obviously spider deliveries didn't come on stream until latter half) for all of 2012.Jonathan
johnnyreggae said:
So very roughly extrapolating the rate of delivery of 458 has increased by about a third whereas the rate for the McLaren has decreased by the same amount
Or soon the market will be flooded with used 2013 458 whereas there will be relatively few 12C from 2013 !
Has the supply side of these exotics accelerated way past the demand side?Or soon the market will be flooded with used 2013 458 whereas there will be relatively few 12C from 2013 !
It's all part of the fun of owning these that you also stay in touch with the market on where the prices are. I love drive my cars as well and no harm in analysing the market
I think th op raised a good point and I think in general the pricing of 458 and 12 c are a fair bit moved on from the f430 etc. Was this because manufacturer's would rather sell less cars at more profit or because they know Us westerners are out of money and 5 yr on the demand will be from China India and Brazil. Don't forget Ferrari and Lamborghini thought if mercedes can sell a car for 130k sl63 then we can definitely sell our cars for more and moved the game on
I think th op raised a good point and I think in general the pricing of 458 and 12 c are a fair bit moved on from the f430 etc. Was this because manufacturer's would rather sell less cars at more profit or because they know Us westerners are out of money and 5 yr on the demand will be from China India and Brazil. Don't forget Ferrari and Lamborghini thought if mercedes can sell a car for 130k sl63 then we can definitely sell our cars for more and moved the game on
The mclaren has to be owned to be understood, It's quite simply the best Supercar in the world by a long way.
No other road car drives as well on track (other than a GT3 RS which comes a close 2nd) and then takes you home in absolute comfort. The design is stunning and slowly but surely its growing on most car enthusiasts. I have owned loads of exotica and nothing draws attention like the mclaren, its nice genuine interest too. Everyone seems to love it wherever you go and I have never had so many kids and their dads wanting their picture taken in it.
The ferrari is for showing off and i say this Despite currently also owning a stradale and my previous car being a scuderia. The scud was useless on the track and the 458 isn't much better although I've only driven that on the road so far.
I hope mclaren ride out this negative storm as they really have built something special and hopefully will eventually be appreciated.
No other road car drives as well on track (other than a GT3 RS which comes a close 2nd) and then takes you home in absolute comfort. The design is stunning and slowly but surely its growing on most car enthusiasts. I have owned loads of exotica and nothing draws attention like the mclaren, its nice genuine interest too. Everyone seems to love it wherever you go and I have never had so many kids and their dads wanting their picture taken in it.
The ferrari is for showing off and i say this Despite currently also owning a stradale and my previous car being a scuderia. The scud was useless on the track and the 458 isn't much better although I've only driven that on the road so far.
I hope mclaren ride out this negative storm as they really have built something special and hopefully will eventually be appreciated.
Radders said:
The mclaren has to be owned to be understood, It's quite simply the best Supercar in the world by a long way.
No other road car drives as well on track (other than a GT3 RS which comes a close 2nd) and then takes you home in absolute comfort. The design is stunning and slowly but surely its growing on most car enthusiasts. I have owned loads of exotica and nothing draws attention like the mclaren, its nice genuine interest too. Everyone seems to love it wherever you go and I have never had so many kids and their dads wanting their picture taken in it.
The ferrari is for showing off and i say this Despite currently also owning a stradale and my previous car being a scuderia. The scud was useless on the track and the 458 isn't much better although I've only driven that on the road so far.
I hope mclaren ride out this negative storm as they really have built something special and hopefully will eventually be appreciated.
As Apolo says, until Mclaren's sort their pricing policy out, then many wont be interested in the above. They have handled the pricing and used market terribly IMO. No other road car drives as well on track (other than a GT3 RS which comes a close 2nd) and then takes you home in absolute comfort. The design is stunning and slowly but surely its growing on most car enthusiasts. I have owned loads of exotica and nothing draws attention like the mclaren, its nice genuine interest too. Everyone seems to love it wherever you go and I have never had so many kids and their dads wanting their picture taken in it.
The ferrari is for showing off and i say this Despite currently also owning a stradale and my previous car being a scuderia. The scud was useless on the track and the 458 isn't much better although I've only driven that on the road so far.
I hope mclaren ride out this negative storm as they really have built something special and hopefully will eventually be appreciated.
I, as many others, would have several other cars before the 12c, regardless of its prowess on a track.
People are rapidly realising that speed is not the ultimate nirvana, and stratospheric depreciation is very real indeed.
It's aesthetically bland IMO, very accomplished I'm sure, but I would take the Strad or a 458 in a heart beat.
Sierra Mike said:
McLaren has overpriced its cars and the sooner it corrects its pricing the better it is for everyone.
Robbo66 said:
As Apolo says, until Mclaren's sort their pricing policy out, then many wont be interested in the above. They have handled the pricing and used market terribly .....
Just for me to understand... are you guys really saying that Mclaren should price the 12c (which, until the Alfa 4C appears, is the only car that has a carbon tub that costs under 300k new and is a brand new design with a new engine sharing no parts with any existing car) at the level of a Ferrari 430 or an Audi R8 V10? How then are they going to have any hope of breaking even on all the R&D/production costs of a car engineered to the level that the 12c is, much less make a profit?Gassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff