MP4 12C Deprecation and Brand Value

[AndrewD]

Radders said:

The mclaren has to be owned to be understood, It's quite simply the best Supercar in the world by a long way.

No other road car drives as well on track (other than a GT3 RS which comes a close 2nd) and then takes you home in absolute comfort. The design is stunning and slowly but surely its growing on most car enthusiasts. I have owned loads of exotica and nothing draws attention like the mclaren, its nice genuine interest too. Everyone seems to love it wherever you go and I have never had so many kids and their dads wanting their picture taken in it.

The ferrari is for showing off and i say this Despite currently also owning a stradale and my previous car being a scuderia. The scud was useless on the track and the 458 isn't much better although I've only driven that on the road so far.

I hope mclaren ride out this negative storm as they really have built something special and hopefully will eventually be appreciated.

Did you see the Evo comment about the 12C on track vs the 991 GT3?

"The Porsche seems to be far happier here (on track) than the dynamically aloof McLaren"

[Sierra Mike]

isaldiri said:

Sierra Mike said:

McLaren has overpriced its cars and the sooner it corrects its pricing the better it is for everyone.

Robbo66 said:

As Apolo says, until Mclaren's sort their pricing policy out, then many wont be interested in the above. They have handled the pricing and used market terribly .....

Just for me to understand... are you guys really saying that Mclaren should price the 12c (which, until the Alfa 4C appears, is the only car that has a carbon tub that costs under 300k new and is a brand new design with a new engine sharing no parts with any existing car) at the level of a Ferrari 430 or an Audi R8 V10? How then are they going to have any hope of breaking even on all the R&D/production costs of a car engineered to the level that the 12c is, much less make a profit?

Yes - that is correct.

To help make this clearer for anyone reading this, McLaren has slashed its price for the 12C in Australia to a similar level as the R8 V10 Plus. In the process, it has undercut the 458 by a long way after making a statement about historic overpricing of these cars.

Is a McLaren MP4 12C overpriced? According to McLaren itself, yes it is. The guys at McLaren put their money where their mouth is in Australia so why shouldn't they do the same in their home market?

[hornbaek]

At the end of the day the price is regulated by supply and demand. If you don't control supply to match the demand (or ideally a bit less) you will end up with the overstocking we are now seeing. For a manufacturer like McLaren it is a conundrum because you want enough cars out there to satisfy the dealerships so they have something to show but as the market is very small for 200+ cars in the UK you will end up with oversupplying the market - at least in the short term because you need to fill the line and make production efficient. Ideally you should only manufacture to order but that is not possible if you have nothing to show when launching a new car.
I think think that McLaren missed a trick when they launched their car venture. They should never have build up a dealer network which then needed cars to turn a profit. They should have sold cars directly from Woking pretty much inviting every customer down to Woking dealing directly with McLaren (due to the warranty issues they pretty much ended up doing that anyway). I think the idea of going to dealerships for high end cars is out of date anyway. If you look at the number of cars that are sold you can pretty much make a complete customised service where the car is delivered to your door rather than you having to go to a dealership.

[isaldiri]

Sierra Mike said:

Yes - that is correct.

To help make this clearer for anyone reading this, McLaren has slashed its price for the 12C in Australia to a similar level as the R8 V10 Plus. In the process, it has undercut the 458 by a long way after making a statement about historic overpricing of these cars.

Is a McLaren MP4 12C overpriced? According to McLaren itself, yes it is. The guys at McLaren put their money where their mouth is in Australia so why shouldn't they do the same in their home market?

And you do realise excluding the luxury car tax and GST in Australia, the amount that Mclaren are collecting for the 12c (~400k AUD minus 33% luxury tax and whatever other taxes) is still going to be significantly above the ex VAT price of the 12c in the UK? That is a quirk of that particular market where high performance cars are awfully expensive and not exactly reflective of the rest of the world.

I repeat, I fail to see how you can realistically expect Mclaren can offer a carbon tub car with that degree of engineering at the price of something like the cross platform R8 V10 (very nice car but the 12c is dynamically on a different planet IMO) in the Europe/US where prices are much more competitive.

[APOLO1]

If this were a publicly traded stock. I would have a very large short holding.

[Robbo66]

isaldiri said:

I repeat, I fail to see how you can realistically expect Mclaren can offer a carbon tub car with that degree of engineering at the price of something like the cross platform R8 V10 (very nice car but the 12c is dynamically on a different planet IMO) in the Europe/US where prices are much more competitive.

Carbon tub,....so what.

The problem is, many potential clients in this tiny tiny market, 'fail to see' the benefits of the invisible carbon tub, and the dynamics may offer a slight benefit over for example the 458, but at the expense of feel.

So, this a perfect example of over engineering, at huge cost with perceived minimal gain, that appeals to very few and suffers huge depreciation as a result.

[Bunk]

AndrewD said:

Did you see the Evo comment about the 12C on track vs the 991 GT3?

"The Porsche seems to be far happier here (on track) than the dynamically aloof McLaren"

Not surprising really that a dedicated track car like the Gt3 would be better on track than the Mac.

I'm just waiting for some real world owner experiences of the car on the real stty roads we get in UK & Ireland. I've just sold my Gt3RS (997.1) because I couldn't live with it daily any more and life being what it is, am not doing track days bar an occasional one.

I've noticed that while every review so far has said the car is more compliant than previously, at the same time every review or clip I've seen has been on snooker table roads, so how can they know? I'm willing to bet that when these start getting into the hands of the public, it will be merely ok /tolerable ride quality but not for everyone.

That is of course unless Porsche do soften it up a lot more to create a much bigger differentiation between Gt3 and RS.

Its in the real world that the Mac's suspension is groundbreaking. I've no doubt on the roads I frequent daily that it would leave practically anything, new GT3 included, for dead.

[APOLO1]

respectfully I do not agree with you that the 991 GT3 is a dedicated track day car, It is more compliant on the road than a 991S. You are also wrong about the 12Cs suspension, it is a very old tech. wise,For me the best part is the engine and Box, It feels so strong. Although having said this TWR have to take a lot of credit for the engine

Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 20th August 09:54

[Tony 1234]

Another thing that won't help the brand is the running costs after the warranty runs out, not many Porsche owners looking at a pre owned car will want to spend £2k+parts (average) each year on servicing plus warranty costs of circa £2500-£3k a year, a 991 turbo is miles cheaper to run.

I was a buyer of a pre owned car a few months ago but everything put together ie dealership to far away given the reliability/depreciation/running cost, I asked for my holding deposit back, when the P13 is out I'll look at that option.

[Alfa numeric]

isaldiri said:

I repeat, I fail to see how you can realistically expect Mclaren can offer a carbon tub car with that degree of engineering at the price of something like the cross platform R8 V10 (very nice car but the 12c is dynamically on a different planet IMO) in the Europe/US where prices are much more competitive.

Aren't they going to use the same tub in their 911 competitor?

[Mermaid]

APOLO1 said:

If this were a publicly traded stock. I would have a very large short holding.

+ 1

[skidskid]

APOLO1 said:

For me the best part is the engine and Box, It feels so strong. Although having said this TWR have to take a lot of credit for the engine

Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 20th August 09:54

I think any link with TWR is long gone. The engine has next to nothing left to do with that original engine. Most credit should go to Ricardo, wasnt it them who took the project over in its hour of need?

[APOLO1]

not quite right, the original design for the engine, as in a light weight, compact high power V8 turbo was TWRs. They needed an engine when the AMG deal did not go through.....IMHO.

Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 20th August 12:19

[WCZ]

the P1 should help Mclaren's image.

[red_duke]

Does this tell us anything?

Mclaren Automotive Limited's risk score was amended on 19/02/2013.
The latest Annual Accounts submitted to Companies House for the year up to 31/12/2011 reported 'cash at bank' of £5,817,000, 'liabilities' worth £88,796,000, 'net worth' of £-183,261,000 and 'assets' worth £100,325,000.

[skidskid]

APOLO1 said:

not quite right, the original design for the engine, as in a light weight, compact high power V8 turbo was TWRs. They needed an engine when the AMG deal did not go through.....IMHO.

Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 20th August 12:19

I guess, however, I think what Ricardo did to the base engine was more impressive than the engine architecture TWR came up with. Alot of people have come up with engines of similar layout and size but they dont produce as much power with the reliability. I guess a counter argument would be that Ricardo just updated it with modern components but as someone who works in the field I know making something work is more difficult than coming up with the design.

[APOLO1]

yes......it would be a good short IMHO,

[stefan1]

Appreciate I am coming late to this thread.

I think many contributors here are being too harsh on McLaren and the 12C. They've achieved something very few independents have ever done, which is build, out of the box, a viable competitor to the strongest sports car brand in the world - i.e. Ferrari and its 458.

No doubt the launch did not go completely to plan - all the initial niggles were not great and those kept me fromy buying initially - but the fundamental engineering philosophy of the car is, IMHO, spot on, and clearly differentiated from its competitors.

As to pricing, a lot of the issue is with the cost of options. A base car at £175k is going to depreciate a lot less than the typically specced cars of £210-220k. I bought a 12C about two month ago, and chose to spec the car myself and did so in the full knowledge I'm going to lose more money than if I had a) layed off the options (!) or b) bought second hand. This is no different with 911s or Ferraris.

The other point I'd make is China. When I was at the factory, they were gearing up for China deliveries, and I suspect this will reduce supply in other mature markets. This may help balance up supply and demand in the UK and elsewhere.

I can't sign off without mentioning the car - 8 weeks in and I am hugely impressed. It is the antithesis of my CGT, which is precisely what I was looking for - a car that it is easy to drive, comfortable, capable of long trips with decent luggage space whilst still being able to (to shamelessly borrow Chris Harris' phrase) "rattle your undergarments" at will. It is an extraordinarly capable all-round supercar, whilst the CGT is a diguised racer for the road (and wonderful in its own right for being just that).

Cheers

[stefan1]

APOLO1 said:

respectfully I do not agree with you that the 991 GT3 is a dedicated track day car, It is more compliant on the road than a 991S. You are also wrong about the 12Cs suspension, it is a very old tech. wise,For me the best part is the engine and Box, It feels so strong. Although having said this TWR have to take a lot of credit for the engine

Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 20th August 09:54

I can't agree re the 991 GT3 being more compliant than the 991S. I've driven the former and own the latter - and whilst the new GT3 is much more compliant than the old 997 GT3s, it is still a fair bit firmer than the stock car. That said, it is very McLaren like in its ability to absorb bumps and keep all four wheels firmly planted on the tarmac. But it is not as comfortable in normal mode as the 12C in day to day driving.

[APOLO1]

I have done over 14k miles, on road and track, in 991S, and driven the 991 GT3, for 30 mins. In none sport mode IMHO the GT3, is more comfortable than the 991s