Discussion
I cant wait to have my one parked next to my Speciale, now that will be a tough decision in the morning! 
In all seriousness, I think the Speciale will be the more emotive drive as that 9000rpm is unlike anything else I've ever driven, it drives on the road with such precision and accuracy its like my race car drives on the track. While the LT will be faster at covering ground, they are both high tech, both stupidly fast, both look great, both exciting V8 engines with slightly different characters. Nothing more to it for 99% of owners IMO
I wouldn't make it as a journalist
In all seriousness, I think the Speciale will be the more emotive drive as that 9000rpm is unlike anything else I've ever driven, it drives on the road with such precision and accuracy its like my race car drives on the track. While the LT will be faster at covering ground, they are both high tech, both stupidly fast, both look great, both exciting V8 engines with slightly different characters. Nothing more to it for 99% of owners IMO
I wouldn't make it as a journalist
Hollowpockets said:
I cant wait to have my one parked next to my Speciale, now that will be a tough decision in the morning!
In all seriousness, I think the Speciale will be the more emotive drive as that 9000rpm is unlike anything else I've ever driven, it drives on the road with such precision and accuracy its like my race car drives on the track. While the LT will be faster at covering ground, they are both high tech, both stupidly fast, both look great, both exciting V8 engines with slightly different characters. Nothing more to it for 99% of owners IMO
I wouldn't make it as a journalist
I love the fact you're going to have both competitors in the household, Mclarens seem to fair better in longer term reviews, But I haven't met an owner yet that hasn't loved theirs (although I have only met 3 owners :P ) In all seriousness, I think the Speciale will be the more emotive drive as that 9000rpm is unlike anything else I've ever driven, it drives on the road with such precision and accuracy its like my race car drives on the track. While the LT will be faster at covering ground, they are both high tech, both stupidly fast, both look great, both exciting V8 engines with slightly different characters. Nothing more to it for 99% of owners IMO
I wouldn't make it as a journalist
Will be interesting to see how well owners think it handles on track and day to day. But my favourite non p1 car yet! The question is what colour have you opted for?
LukeyLikey said:
flemke said:
LukeyLikey said:
(One exception is the comment from one journalist that the 675 is the best McLaren since the F1 - can't think that could be true since the P1 is something of a masterpiece by all accounts).
The P1 might be fully a masterpiece of showing what McLaren are capable of doing technologically, but short of a masterpiece in giving the driver something to explore, exploit and enjoy.One could say the same, I think, about a LaFerrari v a Speciale and about a 918 v a GT3RS.
The Veyron remains the 21st century's ultimate masterpiece of engineering, and especially of build quality, but apart from its straight-line blast it is less rewarding to drive than many other cars.
Wrt the Veyron, I was speaking of its technology and engineering relative to the time when it was designed and developed, a decade-plus ago.
Although a Cosworth DFV is primitive by current standards, I think few would dispute that it was a masterpiece of motor racing engineering.
Given all the talk of the 675LT being a 'baby P1' do people feel that the 675's arrival might actually take some of the wind out of the P1 in terms of reputation andcurrent valuation even?Or is the P1 still sufficiently special enough to retain its halo status despite the excellent 675 reviews and the fact that the production numbers are comparable (375 vs 500)?
gunner said:
Given all the talk of the 675LT being a 'baby P1' do people feel that the 675's arrival might actually take some of the wind out of the P1 in terms of reputation andcurrent valuation even?Or is the P1 still sufficiently special enough to retain its halo status despite the excellent 675 reviews and the fact that the production numbers are comparable (375 vs 500)?
P1 Will always sit above it, theres a lot more technology in that than the 675. Also 730bhp from the v8 alone.Looks like a completely different animal, especially from behind, theyre so wide and low, and still dont sound as good as the P1 either.
gunner said:
Given all the talk of the 675LT being a 'baby P1' do people feel that the 675's arrival might actually take some of the wind out of the P1 in terms of reputation andcurrent valuation even?Or is the P1 still sufficiently special enough to retain its halo status despite the excellent 675 reviews and the fact that the production numbers are comparable (375 vs 500)?
I expect you will be right, although in part it depends not on the 675LT (which is a derivative of the car "beneath" the P1, the 650S) but rather on what will replace the 650S template in a couple of years' time, whether that car will much look like the P1, how will it drive, etc. Over time, I expect the 675 will enjoy a reputation as being one of the great McLaren "drivers' cars", less a matter of whiz-bang technology and more a matter of thoughtful, symbiotic judgments about maximising the driving experience - perhaps similar to the difference between a Porsche CGT and a 918.
flemke said:
Over time, I expect the 675 will enjoy a reputation as being one of the great McLaren "drivers' cars", less a matter of whiz-bang technology and more a matter of thoughtful, symbiotic judgments about maximising the driving experience - perhaps similar to the difference between a Porsche CGT and a 918.
But surely the 675 shares practically all of it's electronic gadgetry (dual clutch, brake steer, hydraulic suspension and various stability/traction control systems) with the P1 and what it lacks vs the P1 ie the hybrid component and much less aero are things that likely add to the driving experience, albeit at the cost of perhaps ~150kg of weight which is pretty significant admittedly. The CGT and the 918 are pretty much on opposite ends of the scale as far as analogue/digital cars are concerned while the 675 to the P1 will be pretty close together. Even if the 675 has more integrated and seamless electronics as Mclaren continue to gain in experience with their road cars, it's hard to imagine the 2 cars will be completely different in terms of driving experience?
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
Over time, I expect the 675 will enjoy a reputation as being one of the great McLaren "drivers' cars", less a matter of whiz-bang technology and more a matter of thoughtful, symbiotic judgments about maximising the driving experience - perhaps similar to the difference between a Porsche CGT and a 918.
But surely the 675 shares practically all of it's electronic gadgetry (dual clutch, brake steer, hydraulic suspension and various stability/traction control systems) with the P1 and what it lacks vs the P1 ie the hybrid component and much less aero are things that likely add to the driving experience, albeit at the cost of perhaps ~150kg of weight which is pretty significant admittedly. The CGT and the 918 are pretty much on opposite ends of the scale as far as analogue/digital cars are concerned while the 675 to the P1 will be pretty close together. Even if the 675 has more integrated and seamless electronics as Mclaren continue to gain in experience with their road cars, it's hard to imagine the 2 cars will be completely different in terms of driving experience?
- meaningful difference in weight, which means better braking, chassis readier to change direction,
- different steering feel (quicker rack, more progressive steering returnability, also more steering responsiveness owing to lower kerb weight),
- less of a faff to comprehend, be distracted by and work around various electronic systems,
- narrower body, with the P1 being so wide the enjoyment is compromised.
Ways in which the P1 is "better":
- electric mobility - I don't care,
- more downforce - irrelevant,
- more power - irrelevant.
Also, I like a car from which it is physically possible for me the owner to remove the engine cover and actually look at my engine!
Perhaps a better Porsche analogy would be 959 v 993 RS Clubsport. 959 was a fantastic technical achievement, and possibly the faster around a circuit (at least in Sport version), but no question the 993 (and the 964 RS, with which I have much less experience) was more enjoyable to drive.
flemke said:
I have not driven the 675 yet, but I believe (and that reason that I ordered one was) that the differences are:
- meaningful difference in weight, which means better braking, chassis readier to change direction,
- different steering feel (quicker rack, more progressive steering returnability, also more steering responsiveness owing to lower kerb weight),
- less of a faff to comprehend, be distracted by and work around various electronic systems,
- narrower body, with the P1 being so wide the enjoyment is compromised.
Ways in which the P1 is "better":
- electric mobility - I don't care,
- more downforce - irrelevant,
- more power - irrelevant.
Also, I like a car from which it is physically possible for me the owner to remove the engine cover and actually look at my engine!
Perhaps a better Porsche analogy would be 959 v 993 RS Clubsport. 959 was a fantastic technical achievement, and possibly the faster around a circuit (at least in Sport version), but no question the 993 (and the 964 RS, with which I have much less experience) was more enjoyable to drive.
The main bit the P1 does 'better' ie the hybrid I guess was perhaps less for outright power/e-mode mobility but rather to improve the throttle response and mostly even if not wholly negate turbo lag on what is already a reasonably highly boosted engine even in 650s form and that more than anything else has to be the major difference over the P11 cars? Admittedly, it is not entirely obvious that the substantial weight differential of the 675 would not more than make up for that especially as Mclaren have been saying the 675 engine has gone through a fair number of changes to improve drivability.- meaningful difference in weight, which means better braking, chassis readier to change direction,
- different steering feel (quicker rack, more progressive steering returnability, also more steering responsiveness owing to lower kerb weight),
- less of a faff to comprehend, be distracted by and work around various electronic systems,
- narrower body, with the P1 being so wide the enjoyment is compromised.
Ways in which the P1 is "better":
- electric mobility - I don't care,
- more downforce - irrelevant,
- more power - irrelevant.
Also, I like a car from which it is physically possible for me the owner to remove the engine cover and actually look at my engine!
Perhaps a better Porsche analogy would be 959 v 993 RS Clubsport. 959 was a fantastic technical achievement, and possibly the faster around a circuit (at least in Sport version), but no question the 993 (and the 964 RS, with which I have much less experience) was more enjoyable to drive.
Suspect I had understood the prior post differently wrt to 'drivers car' as mentioned though. Was more thinking along the lines that both the 675 and P1 have a lot of very active electronic chassis control systems that are hugely involved with the cars' dynamics and I couldn't see the 675 being very different the P1 in that respect. In terms of pure enjoyment to drive though, agree the smaller lighter car usually has a rather big advantage...
isaldiri said:
The main bit the P1 does 'better' ie the hybrid I guess was perhaps less for outright power/e-mode mobility but rather to improve the throttle response and mostly even if not wholly negate turbo lag on what is already a reasonably highly boosted engine even in 650s form and that more than anything else has to be the major difference over the P11 cars? Admittedly, it is not entirely obvious that the substantial weight differential of the 675 would not more than make up for that especially as Mclaren have been saying the 675 engine has gone through a fair number of changes to improve drivability.
Suspect I had understood the prior post differently wrt to 'drivers car' as mentioned though. Was more thinking along the lines that both the 675 and P1 have a lot of very active electronic chassis control systems that are hugely involved with the cars' dynamics and I couldn't see the 675 being very different the P1 in that respect. In terms of pure enjoyment to drive though, agree the smaller lighter car usually has a rather big advantage...
Yes, there are the active chassis control, rear wheel steer, etc. I think we're going to see those on all fast cars going forward - even a GT3 now has rear wheel steer and a lot of electronic assistance. The "Speciale" is F's take on a driver's car, but it has an electronic drift mode. Suspect I had understood the prior post differently wrt to 'drivers car' as mentioned though. Was more thinking along the lines that both the 675 and P1 have a lot of very active electronic chassis control systems that are hugely involved with the cars' dynamics and I couldn't see the 675 being very different the P1 in that respect. In terms of pure enjoyment to drive though, agree the smaller lighter car usually has a rather big advantage...
Wrt the turbocharging, on the one hand modern turbocharged engines, including 650S engine, do not have much lag at all. On the other hand, P1 engine still has a bit. Throttle response, whilst really good, is not quite as direct as in an equivalent NA engine.
For me at least the objective of reducing P1 turbo-lag by "filling the gaps" with electric power was therefore an imperfect solution to a problem that did not really exist.
I think the main reason McL went with the electric supplement, apart from the technological-showcase bit, was that it enabled them to exploit a single engine template across a wide range of products. That would have saved them a lot in development cost and time - similar thinking to what they did with the CF tub.
I'm not saying that there is anything inherently bad in using the same engine template in many applications. Porsche did the same with the Mezger block in many different cars across many years, although it's worth noting that when it came to the CGT, Porsche used a different engine unique to that car.
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