Discussion
GlynnsportRacing said:
flemke said:
Having only 18 months ago misled P1 buyers about the production boundaries for that car, it would be rather galling if they were to do the same thing - in many cases to the same buyers - about the 675.
If they were to do a spider version that was a bit different, not quite as extreme as the 675 (for example, the recently announced "Can-Am" edition), that would be okay.
If instead they produce what is, in deed if not in name, a 675LT spider, some of us will not be amused.
Which would not, however, change the fact that the coupe would be a better car. Can you imagine a Porsche GT3RS cabriolet?
I'm not sure your point with a GT3RS is valid in this instance. The carbon tub of the Mac provides the ideal base for a spider version which loses none of the rigidty associated with a normal chassis when you put a cloth top on?If they were to do a spider version that was a bit different, not quite as extreme as the 675 (for example, the recently announced "Can-Am" edition), that would be okay.
If instead they produce what is, in deed if not in name, a 675LT spider, some of us will not be amused.
Which would not, however, change the fact that the coupe would be a better car. Can you imagine a Porsche GT3RS cabriolet?
Also, does the P1 GTR really go against the ethos of the original P1 launch? First its a track only car (unless you pay aa lot of money for an external company to convert it for road use) Second it is at a very different launch price point & those early adopters of the P1 have already made significant gains on their purchase which I don't believe have been detrimentally affected by the GTR version. Perhaps I have the wrong perception looking from the outside in!
Yes, a 650 tub is torsionally stiff enough in its own right that it does not require a roof, but there are at least a few performance compromises that do come with a drop-top. I could see a 675 "roadster" with no roof as a true track day-type car before I could see a spider/convertible version of a 675.
Wrt P1 and P1 GTR, one contextual point would be what McLaren did with the F1 25 years ago. In that case, it was determined before Gordon Murray's pencil first touched the paper that the F1 would be a true road car - not a "race car for the road" or "track-orientated" car. Thus the subsequent LMs were, in fairness, a meaningful step away from the standard road cars.
The P1 was different. For as long as the concept of the P1 was being talked up by McLaren, including by Ron and the then-CEO A. Sheriff, they told us that this would be a track-orientated road car, the fastest-on-a-circuit road-legal proper car that one could buy, et al. That was the market position. Unlike the F1, the P1 was not going to be a GT in which you could take your better half and all your luggage from London to Monaco for the weekend. Rather, this was going to be first and foremost a bullet on the track, and, subsidiary to that, compliant enough for the road.
Thus when they came out with the "track-only" (except that a mid-size vintage race shop has now made many of them road-legal) GTR, the new car was necessarily covering much of the same territory and had much of the same brief as the normal P1.
You mention that the GTR was launched at a very different price point, but you must take into account that with the GTR one is getting not only the physical car, as with a P1, but also the bespoke coaching, circuit days, maintenance and service, time on the McLaren simulator, and other rarefied add-ons.
It is not clear to me that the GTR costs a penny more for McLaren to produce than the P1 did. There would have been development and testing fixed costs that had to be amortised, but McLaren could have, side by side, offered the P1 and GTR variants, the latter with or without all the add-ons, and the price of the GTR without the add-ons would have been much more in line with the P1. In fact, they could have offered the add-ons as options for the normal P1 as well as for the GTR and quite possibly have generated more total revenue that way.
As for whether the GTR has hurt the value of the P1, we'll never know for sure. What we do know is that, by making the GTR, McLaren belied their assertion that the normal P1 was "as good a car as we know how to make".
Jappo said:
isaldiri said:
To be fair to Mclaren, afaik, at least in northern Europe and UK, all or almost all 675 depositors have been offered the chance to switch to the the spider. Woking it seems belatedly had realised they at minimum had to do offer that and had instructed dealers to make enquiries about the switch.
Not meWe two must be the exceptions that prove the rule. I am sure all the other 498 got the chance to swap....
flemke said:
When they were marketing the P1, they said that there would be a hard limit of 375 cars only, and that there would not be a subsequent, improved version of the P1, because "This car already is the very best that we can do."
So, as soon as had finished taking orders and deposits for the P1, but long before most cars had been delivered, they announced the GTR version, of which they built IRO 40, on top of the 375. Furthermore, the GTR was, by some measures, clearly an improved version of the original P1.
Not only that, but more recently they have resurrected 5 (I think it is) of their prototype or press chassis, have totally refurbished those cars, and have sold them to customers, which action has enlarged even the build run of "normal" P1s from 375 to 380.
People who have been loyal customers of McLaren's for 15 or in some cases 20 years, and who in that time have paid a great deal of money to the company, including more recently for P1s and 675s, do not really appreciate this sort of thing.
Yes but the GTR was only offered to P1 customers. So, as soon as had finished taking orders and deposits for the P1, but long before most cars had been delivered, they announced the GTR version, of which they built IRO 40, on top of the 375. Furthermore, the GTR was, by some measures, clearly an improved version of the original P1.
Not only that, but more recently they have resurrected 5 (I think it is) of their prototype or press chassis, have totally refurbished those cars, and have sold them to customers, which action has enlarged even the build run of "normal" P1s from 375 to 380.
People who have been loyal customers of McLaren's for 15 or in some cases 20 years, and who in that time have paid a great deal of money to the company, including more recently for P1s and 675s, do not really appreciate this sort of thing.
TP321 said:
flemke said:
When they were marketing the P1, they said that there would be a hard limit of 375 cars only, and that there would not be a subsequent, improved version of the P1, because "This car already is the very best that we can do."
So, as soon as had finished taking orders and deposits for the P1, but long before most cars had been delivered, they announced the GTR version, of which they built IRO 40, on top of the 375. Furthermore, the GTR was, by some measures, clearly an improved version of the original P1.
Not only that, but more recently they have resurrected 5 (I think it is) of their prototype or press chassis, have totally refurbished those cars, and have sold them to customers, which action has enlarged even the build run of "normal" P1s from 375 to 380.
People who have been loyal customers of McLaren's for 15 or in some cases 20 years, and who in that time have paid a great deal of money to the company, including more recently for P1s and 675s, do not really appreciate this sort of thing.
Yes but the GTR was only offered to P1 customers. So, as soon as had finished taking orders and deposits for the P1, but long before most cars had been delivered, they announced the GTR version, of which they built IRO 40, on top of the 375. Furthermore, the GTR was, by some measures, clearly an improved version of the original P1.
Not only that, but more recently they have resurrected 5 (I think it is) of their prototype or press chassis, have totally refurbished those cars, and have sold them to customers, which action has enlarged even the build run of "normal" P1s from 375 to 380.
People who have been loyal customers of McLaren's for 15 or in some cases 20 years, and who in that time have paid a great deal of money to the company, including more recently for P1s and 675s, do not really appreciate this sort of thing.
flemke said:
Jappo said:
isaldiri said:
To be fair to Mclaren, afaik, at least in northern Europe and UK, all or almost all 675 depositors have been offered the chance to switch to the the spider. Woking it seems belatedly had realised they at minimum had to do offer that and had instructed dealers to make enquiries about the switch.
Not meWe two must be the exceptions that prove the rule. I am sure all the other 498 got the chance to swap....
i did add a suitable copout above with the "afaik"... The 2-3 people i know getting one i know were offered the chance to switch here in the UK and ascot had made enquiries to myself about the spider having formerly been on the list for the coupe and had said they were in process of asking existing depositors about that. i also had the chance to speak to someone quite high up a few weeks ago in Mclaren Northern Europe sales who did say the dealers in his tegion had been told to tell their 675 depositors about the "very strong possibility of a spider variant" in his words and to see if they would switch so had assumed it would be happening here/europe generally. If you asked Ascot (i assume the ordering dealer given location) though, i am fairly certain they would have more information forthcoming...quite a few people had mentioned that 675 allocations had come up around late august/early september - i had assumed that was primarily from coupe buyers changing.
Flemke - with the factory contacts you have I am genuinely surprised none of them had at least very strongly hinted the spider was going to happen as that was being considered likely a good while ago...
Edited by isaldiri on Tuesday 13th October 00:37
isaldiri said:
flemke said:
Jappo said:
isaldiri said:
To be fair to Mclaren, afaik, at least in northern Europe and UK, all or almost all 675 depositors have been offered the chance to switch to the the spider. Woking it seems belatedly had realised they at minimum had to do offer that and had instructed dealers to make enquiries about the switch.
Not meWe two must be the exceptions that prove the rule. I am sure all the other 498 got the chance to swap....
i did add a suitable copout above with the "afaik"... The 2-3 people i know getting one i know were offered the chance to switch here in the UK and ascot had made enquiries to myself about the spider having formerly been on the list for the coupe and had said they were in process of asking existing depositors about that. i also had the chance to speak to someone quite high up a few weeks ago in Mclaren Northern Europe sales who did say the dealers in his tegion had been told to tell their 675 depositors about the "very strong possibility of a spider variant" in his words and to see if they would switch so had assumed it would be happening here/europe generally. If you asked Ascot (i assume the ordering dealer given location) though, i am fairly certain they would have more information forthcoming...
I find it hard to imagine how they might have thought this swap offer would go.
If say 100 coupe orders had switched to spider, would they have approached 100 coupe waiting-listers and told them their ship had come in? That would be rather chaotic. And what if 50 of the 100 on the coupe waiting list had said, "Well, in that case, I'll take a spider instead!"?
My car was finished last week and is currently in PDI. Even 3 months ago it would have been impossible for them to cancel my coupe in order to give me an option on a spider. But why should someone in my position (which would be scores of customers) not be given the swap option when many other customers have been given the option? In general, we were the first adopters, we were the ones who ordered well before it was looking like a sell-out, yet it would seem that we were the ones who got ignored whilst everyone else was given the choice.
It's not like this is breaking news that they are doing a spider version. There have been intimations of it from McLaren organisation people for many months now. That is to say, McLaren could have - if they had wanted - announced the spider at the same time as they announced the coupe and given everyone the chance to choose whichever he or she preferred.
Instead this seems like a calculated, sneaky way of shifting all 500 coupes on the basis that the 675 build run would be "only 500" cars, and then, after getting a big leg up with the first 500, expanding that build run to 800 or 1000.
I had a call from my dealer at the very end of September where he confirmed that the 675LT spider was a very high probability.
I declined a 675LT coupe before release, then changed my mind and tried to get Anjum's slot but that did not go anywhere for some strange reason.
Me and the dealer had a long discussion about the fact that if I had purchased a coupe I would not be a happy customer anymore.... As I disagree with some saying that the spider would increase the value of the coupe.... I do not see why.
From what i understand the spiders are already mostly allocated (a lot kf thrm to coupe buyers).
But with 1,000 675 on the market, there will be quite a few coming second hand and they will not command such prenium.
At the end of day, they all do it.... Look at Aston Martin and the V12 Vantage. We will only do 1,000 they said. In the end 1,200 were made and then they launched the V12S !
Although I understand why commercially it make sense for McLaren, I cannot help but being disappointed and I will most probably think twice before buying a limited edition McLaren in the future.
We should also bear in mind that 75% of all McLaren go to very rich people in UAE and China and tht they are buying everything.... And they do not care how many or if another slightly different version come out. We are a minority that does not really count in the grand scheme of things.
I declined a 675LT coupe before release, then changed my mind and tried to get Anjum's slot but that did not go anywhere for some strange reason.
Me and the dealer had a long discussion about the fact that if I had purchased a coupe I would not be a happy customer anymore.... As I disagree with some saying that the spider would increase the value of the coupe.... I do not see why.
From what i understand the spiders are already mostly allocated (a lot kf thrm to coupe buyers).
But with 1,000 675 on the market, there will be quite a few coming second hand and they will not command such prenium.
At the end of day, they all do it.... Look at Aston Martin and the V12 Vantage. We will only do 1,000 they said. In the end 1,200 were made and then they launched the V12S !
Although I understand why commercially it make sense for McLaren, I cannot help but being disappointed and I will most probably think twice before buying a limited edition McLaren in the future.
We should also bear in mind that 75% of all McLaren go to very rich people in UAE and China and tht they are buying everything.... And they do not care how many or if another slightly different version come out. We are a minority that does not really count in the grand scheme of things.
isaldiri said:
Flemke - with the factory contacts you have I am genuinely surprised none of them had at least very strongly hinted the spider was going to happen as that was being considered likely a good while ago...
If I had been told something like that in confidence, I would have felt honour-bound not to breach that confidence by cancelling my coupe order. I'm speaking hypothetically, mind you.
Although what they are doing with this is not cool, IMO what they did with the P1 GTR was worse.
What really does frost my ass is that apparently they have contacted some of the people with coupes on order and given them the opportunity to switch, whereas no-one from the dealer has ever contacted me even to mention the potentiality of a spider, much less given me the chance to switch orders or even to order one in addition to the coupe.
Reminds me a bit of how companies in other industries make much better offers in order to entice new customers than the rates that they offer to long-standing, loyal customers.
flemke said:
Can you believe it - they must have lost my phone number as well!
We two must be the exceptions that prove the rule. I am sure all the other 498 got the chance to swap....
One more in the no call camp. Maybe the other 497 did....We two must be the exceptions that prove the rule. I am sure all the other 498 got the chance to swap....
What a total shambles. Whatever you want to call it, deceived, misled, lied to, the bottom line is that its no way to build customer loyalty. Its arrogance beyond belief, "lets get people to pay 250k + for a limited production car and them make them feel like idiots by doubling the run when its too late for them to do anything about it".
For the precise reason Flemke states earlier in the thread.McLaren had (and have subsequently wasted) a real opportunity to build a stable and loyal customer base.Instead,time and again they have behaved unscrupulously.There was the fiasco with the 650S not being a 12C replacement when initially announced (except it was),the P1/GTR scenario which Flemke has explained,and even worse imo the nonsense with the P1 prototypes which to the best of my knowledge has never been clarified officially by the company and where clearly some dark arts were (are?...still not 100% sure they're all gone)in play.Now the 675LT Coupe/Spider scenario.Personally it reminds me why I generally stopped buying Ferraris years ago.I could no longer take the preferential treatment afforded certain customers over other,no less deserving,cases.McLaren had an awesome chance to build something fresh and fair that all of us petrolheads would buy into but I fear that was just naïve thinking on my part.The real shame is that the excellence of their product is ,to me at least,beyond question,but their marketing/sales practice undermines it.I suspect my 675LT will be my last McLaren for these reasons.
johnnyreggae said:
OK - devil's advocate here: most of you are Ferrari converts and Ferrari has regularly done exactly the same eg Scud/16M & Speciale/Aperta
Why is this different and/or why did you expect any different ?
McLaren are not Ferrari, and they will never be in our lifetime. It has taken Ferrari 60 years to get here, and it has built some very iconic cars along the way, in VERY small numbers, which today enable it to be in the position of selling out any "limited edition" car it makes. Even the non limited cars are sold out - one F dealer told me last week that they need 5 years to satisfy the 488 deposits they hold!!Why is this different and/or why did you expect any different ?
So anyone who thinks they will buy a McLaren product and enjoy this type of relationship with residuals that Ferraris enjoy, will get burnt - END OF. The original 12C customers got burnt, then the 12C Spiders customers, and then the 650s customers. Everyone who bought new and paid full retail.
The only exception are the P1 customers but they bought a car costing over £850k - there is always exclusivity at this price point. Whether that remains the case however i doubt it. McLaren will soon be along to produce yet another new "P1" which will be faster and better.
Even the 675lt coupe and spider, will only enjoy a brief moment as the "best" as the new P15 and P14 will undoubtedly eclipses it in both looks and performance. You need to look at McLaren as Apple - there is always another version just round the corner....
johnnyreggae said:
OK - devil's advocate here: most of you are Ferrari converts and Ferrari has regularly done exactly the same eg Scud/16M & Speciale/Aperta
Why is this different and/or why did you expect any different ?
Not a ferrari convert by any means but.. the major difference was that even Ferrari never claimed the speciale/scuderia were limited production models as Mclaren had done with the 675.. (that they went on to produce a goodly number more of 16Ms than they were supposed is neither here nor there for purposes of this discussion...)Why is this different and/or why did you expect any different ?
flemke said:
Instead this seems like a calculated, sneaky way of shifting all 500 coupes on the basis that the 675 build run would be "only 500" cars, and then, after getting a big leg up with the first 500, expanding that build run to 800 or 1000
If I had been told something like that in confidence, I would have felt honour-bound not to breach that confidence by cancelling my coupe order.
I'm speaking hypothetically, mind you.
Although what they are doing with this is not cool, IMO what they did with the P1 GTR was worse.
What really does frost my ass is that apparently they have contacted some of the people with coupes on order and given them the opportunity to switch, whereas no-one from the dealer has ever contacted me even to mention the potentiality of a spider, much less given me the chance to switch orders or even to order one in addition to the coupe.
Would have to agree with your earlier statement. I had originally thought it was an pretty cynical move by Woking to delay the announcement of the spider until most coupe ordes had been locked and 2nd deposits taken but when a few 675 coupe orders started being offered again as some here had managed to get cars in late august/september, had then assumed that they had finally decided to do the 'right' thing to at least offer people the opportunity to switch out. If I had been told something like that in confidence, I would have felt honour-bound not to breach that confidence by cancelling my coupe order.
I'm speaking hypothetically, mind you.
Although what they are doing with this is not cool, IMO what they did with the P1 GTR was worse.
What really does frost my ass is that apparently they have contacted some of the people with coupes on order and given them the opportunity to switch, whereas no-one from the dealer has ever contacted me even to mention the potentiality of a spider, much less given me the chance to switch orders or even to order one in addition to the coupe.
That is disappointing to hear that all existing buyers were not offered that switch (or in your case the chance to be earlier in line for the spider given your spec was locked in early). It had been strongly suggested to me from a few conversations with various people from the factory that it was going to be the least Mclaren could do given more than a few people who were buyers I know had expressed quite strong opinions about any such spider appearing after Mclaren had announced the 675 as "500 coupes only".
isaldiri said:
even Ferrari never claimed the speciale/scuderia were limited production models as Mclaren had done with the 675..
Really???? isaldiri said:
that they went on to produce a goodly number more of 16Ms than they were supposed
Again - Really???Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/
and Autocar
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...
Slickhillsy said:
Again - Really???
Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/
and Autocar
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...
Yes really....Exactly how is a speciale or scuderia a limited production car when even Ferrari never specified how many they were going to limit production to when they were busy churning out as many as they could at the end of the 430/458 production run?Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/
and Autocar
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...
as for the 16M numbers - some light reading if you are interested...
https://www.ferraris-online.com/pages/article.php?...
Slickhillsy said:
Again - Really???
Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/
and Autocar
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...
yes, do you expect an auction listing to actually state this? and the autocar is a 'first drive' review, how could they possibly mention before it happened that Ferrari would build more cars than initially promised (as they did with the Enzo too)Hmmm Bonhams seems to have their facts wrong then...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/22722/lot/141/
and Autocar
http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/first-drives/f...
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