Why wouldn't I?
Discussion
So I'm in the market for a McLaren. 650S or 12C with the 5xx models a contender.
Coupe/Spider is not a deal breaker for me.
Seen a 12C that has a lovely (although not my most preferred colour) exterior /interior colour combo, sports exhaust, carbon interior, done less than 10k miles. 2011 and had the Iris upgrades. For sale at sub £120k.
I know there is a difference in performance to the 650S in a number of areas. But the 12C is definitely 'fast enough' for me as this would be my first true 'supercar' and I do like the looks very much (always subjective, but I like the unfussyness of it). The sound (important) should be ok as it has the sports exhaust.
I intend to keep long term (5 years) as I want a car that will be fun to own and drive and be (relatively) easy to live with i.e. not in a garage being fixed or breakdown! (this is important to me: psychological scars of owning a Lada as a student!). Also for this 2011/sub £120k car it's got to have taken its biggest hit on depreciation ? Does anyone have a clue where these will be in 3 or 5 more years?
Budget can stretch to £200k which brings the entire model range in scope.
So at the moment I think I only rule out £140k+ 12C cars as that seems to bring used 650S spiders into serious consideration (carbon brakes and the convertible options would make up a chunk of the price difference plus the newer model improvements).
So why wouldn't I go for the 12C that I've seen (as described above) assuming I don't need an axel lifter...
1. My big concern about 2011 cars is mechanical - there is t'internet 'talk' about quality issues for early cars but apart from comments about Iris (which this has upgraded), I can't find out what the concerns are.
2. Depreciation doesn't seem to be a concern unless the 3/5 year view is that these are going to be £50k/£30k cars. If the view on the future values is that they will be at these levels, I may as well go for a used 650S.
Views/advice always appreciated.
Cheers
Coupe/Spider is not a deal breaker for me.
Seen a 12C that has a lovely (although not my most preferred colour) exterior /interior colour combo, sports exhaust, carbon interior, done less than 10k miles. 2011 and had the Iris upgrades. For sale at sub £120k.
I know there is a difference in performance to the 650S in a number of areas. But the 12C is definitely 'fast enough' for me as this would be my first true 'supercar' and I do like the looks very much (always subjective, but I like the unfussyness of it). The sound (important) should be ok as it has the sports exhaust.
I intend to keep long term (5 years) as I want a car that will be fun to own and drive and be (relatively) easy to live with i.e. not in a garage being fixed or breakdown! (this is important to me: psychological scars of owning a Lada as a student!). Also for this 2011/sub £120k car it's got to have taken its biggest hit on depreciation ? Does anyone have a clue where these will be in 3 or 5 more years?
Budget can stretch to £200k which brings the entire model range in scope.
So at the moment I think I only rule out £140k+ 12C cars as that seems to bring used 650S spiders into serious consideration (carbon brakes and the convertible options would make up a chunk of the price difference plus the newer model improvements).
So why wouldn't I go for the 12C that I've seen (as described above) assuming I don't need an axel lifter...
1. My big concern about 2011 cars is mechanical - there is t'internet 'talk' about quality issues for early cars but apart from comments about Iris (which this has upgraded), I can't find out what the concerns are.
2. Depreciation doesn't seem to be a concern unless the 3/5 year view is that these are going to be £50k/£30k cars. If the view on the future values is that they will be at these levels, I may as well go for a used 650S.
Views/advice always appreciated.
Cheers
Hi mate, I am in kind of the same boat and looking at same cars as you by the sounds of it.
For what it's worth I have been running a wanted add since November for a 2011 12C, the cheapest advertised car so far was at 109 and went very quickly, a few cars have been at 115 and as you say most are now 120.
I can't ever see them being much below 100 which is why I am holding out, however when you take out all the sold and wanted adds there are not many 12C for sale.
As you know they got slated by the press v a 458 from a driving point of view, in my opinion that was mainly due to the fact it was more like a modern F1 car with all the driver aids.
The cars also got slated for reliability by owners, however I have yet to read about engine or gearbox or suspension failure or any big bits, I think I'm right in saying it was all computer based stuff like the Iris and electronic door latches etc.
2012 cars were "a lot better / different" but know one seems to be able to tell you what was different other than software changes which is on all cars now.
I'm definitely going to have one sometime soon, currently have LP 550 which is fantastic but I want a macca no idea why other than exclusivity.
Only other thing to consider is maybe new 540C
For what it's worth I have been running a wanted add since November for a 2011 12C, the cheapest advertised car so far was at 109 and went very quickly, a few cars have been at 115 and as you say most are now 120.
I can't ever see them being much below 100 which is why I am holding out, however when you take out all the sold and wanted adds there are not many 12C for sale.
As you know they got slated by the press v a 458 from a driving point of view, in my opinion that was mainly due to the fact it was more like a modern F1 car with all the driver aids.
The cars also got slated for reliability by owners, however I have yet to read about engine or gearbox or suspension failure or any big bits, I think I'm right in saying it was all computer based stuff like the Iris and electronic door latches etc.
2012 cars were "a lot better / different" but know one seems to be able to tell you what was different other than software changes which is on all cars now.
I'm definitely going to have one sometime soon, currently have LP 550 which is fantastic but I want a macca no idea why other than exclusivity.
Only other thing to consider is maybe new 540C
Only comment would be in the IRIS upgrades.
If you are going to use the car regularely, you want the IRIS 2 and not just the IRIS 1 upgrades.... There is a substantial difference and the IRIS 1 system is just useless as it cannot multitask (even if it thinks it can) and tend to freeze all the time.
The choice currently is pretty weak. And it is not going to get any better until the end of the summer. You might want to wait until September/October which is the best time to buy one of those due to larger choice and dealers afraid of being stuck with a car for the whole winter.
Good luck with the purchase, this is one of the most enternaining part of the process, enjoy !
If you are going to use the car regularely, you want the IRIS 2 and not just the IRIS 1 upgrades.... There is a substantial difference and the IRIS 1 system is just useless as it cannot multitask (even if it thinks it can) and tend to freeze all the time.
The choice currently is pretty weak. And it is not going to get any better until the end of the summer. You might want to wait until September/October which is the best time to buy one of those due to larger choice and dealers afraid of being stuck with a car for the whole winter.
Good luck with the purchase, this is one of the most enternaining part of the process, enjoy !
Slightly off topic but it looks like mclaren are still pushing cars through to dealers without owners. Just noticed Birmingham have another coupe in at almost delivery miles. Not bad for a buyer as it's at a discount but would anyone be able to get similar on a new order if they didn't mean no waiting
cho said:
Slightly off topic but it looks like mclaren are still pushing cars through to dealers without owners. Just noticed Birmingham have another coupe in at almost delivery miles. Not bad for a buyer as it's at a discount but would anyone be able to get similar on a new order if they didn't mean no waiting
Saw those and precisely why it's difficult for me to go for a £140k+ 12C. Great cars - and I do really like the look of the 12C - but there is the opportunity to go for 650S without (relatively) too big a jump.Will wait for the right car (will keep my powder dry a little longer to learn a bit more about the car) as I would expect that the usual seasonal cycle will present more opportunities later in the year. Will be very interesting to see the effect of the new range will do to support the 12C/650S range, which I think might be a risk on the price side when buying (i.e. hold them up).
So it's difficult to see the 12Cs being negatively affected by the 5xx cars price wise, unless others have a different view...and as said there are very few 12C about (a couple from each year '11, '12, '13,'14) and a few buyers looking probably for the same car
So that leaves the mechanicals (which is the main question for me) of the earlier cars. I've not heard anything specific either...
Cheers for the feedback.
Surprised anyone would take a coupe over a McLaren spider if price differential is not an issue.
The major advantage for McLaren over any other spider is the carbon tub which means its the only car where there is no compromise for open top motoring.
Effectively you are getting 2 cars for 1 and would be my No 1 priority.
Early 12C coupes are likely to be more effected by 540/570S IMHO as for not much more you can get a brand new car with similar performance.
IMHO the one to have is a 650S spider even if its taking you to the top of your price range but sourcing one to your liking will be the issue now. The few that are hitting the market are on the whole low spec cars ( and not to my personal choice ) but still selling within weeks.
Does it have to be a McLaren as there are plenty of 458's that have been for sale for ages which I'm sure the dealers will be keen to move on
The major advantage for McLaren over any other spider is the carbon tub which means its the only car where there is no compromise for open top motoring.
Effectively you are getting 2 cars for 1 and would be my No 1 priority.
Early 12C coupes are likely to be more effected by 540/570S IMHO as for not much more you can get a brand new car with similar performance.
IMHO the one to have is a 650S spider even if its taking you to the top of your price range but sourcing one to your liking will be the issue now. The few that are hitting the market are on the whole low spec cars ( and not to my personal choice ) but still selling within weeks.
Does it have to be a McLaren as there are plenty of 458's that have been for sale for ages which I'm sure the dealers will be keen to move on
I wouldn't say I've I preference for coupe over spider, just don't have a need for a spider - but what you say is correct, if everything else is equal (colour, spec, age etc) then of course the spider would the choice.
The reason for not going down the 458 route and yes lots around, is my perception (and it is only perception as I've no first hand experience) of reliability with Ferrari in general and apart from cost, I really don't want a car that's going to be in and out of garages being fixed. It will be my second car and I want to drive it, a lot. Although I suspect there will be lots of people with positive experiences of the 458 reliability to put me right on that.
Huracan is another option. I think I have my heart set on the McLaren though (British, real motor sport pedigree, stunning performance and a doddle to drive around the crowded South East, not forgetting the doors!) and the early 12Cs, on the surface of things, seem to be a great way of getting that. But I shall bide my time and see what comes up.
The reason for not going down the 458 route and yes lots around, is my perception (and it is only perception as I've no first hand experience) of reliability with Ferrari in general and apart from cost, I really don't want a car that's going to be in and out of garages being fixed. It will be my second car and I want to drive it, a lot. Although I suspect there will be lots of people with positive experiences of the 458 reliability to put me right on that.
Huracan is another option. I think I have my heart set on the McLaren though (British, real motor sport pedigree, stunning performance and a doddle to drive around the crowded South East, not forgetting the doors!) and the early 12Cs, on the surface of things, seem to be a great way of getting that. But I shall bide my time and see what comes up.
Think it is fair to say the early cars (first few months production) had quite a few issues, mainly software/electrical. Of the early 2011/2012 cars running now especially with reasonable mileage, by and large the cars I know of have run pretty reliably. The gearbox i think has proven a bit more troublesome than hoped as a few cars have had them replaced but that I am given to understand was a manufacturing seal issue from graziano and mainly low mileage cars had those show up pretty early and all or most were replaced under warranty some time ago. In terms of reliability I would reasonably confidently say they are certainly no worse than any other car of it's class around now. i am told however that bluetooth/mobile reception remains an issue sometimes even with iris2. Can't be bothered to rig up my car to the phone so on this I really wouldn't be able to comment.
The 650 imo definitely feels built better (i always tell people it feels bolted together much more solidly in the way very few cars do) and it has a lot more torque and has some software tweaks on the gearbox which is does make it faster/sharper. On the other hand there is more lag and the steering while faster has less feel and you can't dial back the car as much suspension wise when just pootling about getting from a to b as the car rides considerably firmer in the 'normal' settings. Whether it is worth the premium though is up to you to decide.....
Think you are possibly being unfair on the 458 though, it has somewhat questionable build quality and very questionable paint quality but the Ferrari cars now are pretty reliable.
Depreciation and prices in general are topics i try to avoid in general but i think it is fair to say it is probably not easy to see the price differential between the 650s (even after the not insignificant discounts to list even on delivery mileage cars) and 12cs holding up as time goes by so if that matters the older car with a bigger fall from new will likely lose less.
Streetrod - wouldn't say there are particularly few cars available. The overall demand for mclaren cars is just lower than ferrari for various reasons and mclaren have already clearly oversupplied cars in general which explains why prices have taken quite sharp falls. There are perhpas 500-600 P11cars in the UK(rough estimate of ~10% worldwide production). Compared vs the total number of 458s say, it's not very far off surely?
The 650 imo definitely feels built better (i always tell people it feels bolted together much more solidly in the way very few cars do) and it has a lot more torque and has some software tweaks on the gearbox which is does make it faster/sharper. On the other hand there is more lag and the steering while faster has less feel and you can't dial back the car as much suspension wise when just pootling about getting from a to b as the car rides considerably firmer in the 'normal' settings. Whether it is worth the premium though is up to you to decide.....
Think you are possibly being unfair on the 458 though, it has somewhat questionable build quality and very questionable paint quality but the Ferrari cars now are pretty reliable.
Depreciation and prices in general are topics i try to avoid in general but i think it is fair to say it is probably not easy to see the price differential between the 650s (even after the not insignificant discounts to list even on delivery mileage cars) and 12cs holding up as time goes by so if that matters the older car with a bigger fall from new will likely lose less.
Streetrod - wouldn't say there are particularly few cars available. The overall demand for mclaren cars is just lower than ferrari for various reasons and mclaren have already clearly oversupplied cars in general which explains why prices have taken quite sharp falls. There are perhpas 500-600 P11cars in the UK(rough estimate of ~10% worldwide production). Compared vs the total number of 458s say, it's not very far off surely?
Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 2nd May 16:50
Streetrod said:
Sorry to but in on this but can I ask a question, why are so few Mclarens available in the classifieds? Are owners so keen on them that they just do not come to market?
When you compare how many Huracans and 458's are for sale it just seems really small
YES. Once you have driven one for a while ( more than an hour long test drive ) you will appreciate there is nothing else that comes close for the same money and there is far more to the car than an exhaust tone and badge.When you compare how many Huracans and 458's are for sale it just seems really small
458 reliability or build quality would not be an issue for me as its a lot better than F430 and previous Ferrari's but granted it does not feel as solid as a McLaren and obviously in spider form does not benefit from the carbon tub which IMHO is the major plus on a 12C/650S and something that is undervalued.
McLaren production volumes compared to Lamborghini and Ferrari are really small but probably in line with previous demand.
What you have got to remember is that they have only been building these cars since 2011 and starting from scratch with a customer base. The brand is growing rapidly and as such demand is increasing and will outstrip historic production numbers in time.
12C/650S will only become harder to get hold of in the future
RamboLambo said:
YES. Once you have driven one for a while ( more than an hour long test drive ) you will appreciate there is nothing else that comes close for the same money and there is far more to the car than an exhaust tone and badge.
458 reliability or build quality would not be an issue for me as its a lot better than F430 and previous Ferrari's but granted it does not feel as solid as a McLaren and obviously in spider form does not benefit from the carbon tub which IMHO is the major plus on a 12C/650S and something that is undervalued.
McLaren production volumes compared to Lamborghini and Ferrari are really small but probably in line with previous demand.
What you have got to remember is that they have only been building these cars since 2011 and starting from scratch with a customer base. The brand is growing rapidly and as such demand is increasing and will outstrip historic production numbers in time.
12C/650S will only become harder to get hold of in the future
Different name. Same drivel. IMHO..458 reliability or build quality would not be an issue for me as its a lot better than F430 and previous Ferrari's but granted it does not feel as solid as a McLaren and obviously in spider form does not benefit from the carbon tub which IMHO is the major plus on a 12C/650S and something that is undervalued.
McLaren production volumes compared to Lamborghini and Ferrari are really small but probably in line with previous demand.
What you have got to remember is that they have only been building these cars since 2011 and starting from scratch with a customer base. The brand is growing rapidly and as such demand is increasing and will outstrip historic production numbers in time.
12C/650S will only become harder to get hold of in the future
Thanks for the feedback guys. Very helpful.
As TISPKJ says, the 12C seems to be firm in price and rarely available. The rarity, as others point out is interesting in itself. Overall it seems so much supercar for the money and rare. I daresay there will be competition
Isaldiri - interesting points about the mechanicals and good to be aware of, only heard about the Iris performance issues before. I would definitely only purchase a car with Warranty. I assume McLaren will extend the Warranty for a few more years for the 2011 cars (assuming servicing done correctly etc)??
Not having had much experience with the supercars, 12C feels more than enough performance for me (and I really like the looks), but I think at the moment, with so few cars around, it will probably come down to just finding the right spec car (650S or 12C) at the right price.
For those lucky enough to have theirs, hopefully the weather improves and have a great weekend!
Cheers
As TISPKJ says, the 12C seems to be firm in price and rarely available. The rarity, as others point out is interesting in itself. Overall it seems so much supercar for the money and rare. I daresay there will be competition
Isaldiri - interesting points about the mechanicals and good to be aware of, only heard about the Iris performance issues before. I would definitely only purchase a car with Warranty. I assume McLaren will extend the Warranty for a few more years for the 2011 cars (assuming servicing done correctly etc)??
Not having had much experience with the supercars, 12C feels more than enough performance for me (and I really like the looks), but I think at the moment, with so few cars around, it will probably come down to just finding the right spec car (650S or 12C) at the right price.
For those lucky enough to have theirs, hopefully the weather improves and have a great weekend!
Cheers
SELON said:
Isaldiri - interesting points about the mechanicals and good to be aware of, only heard about the Iris performance issues before. I would definitely only purchase a car with Warranty. I assume McLaren will extend the Warranty for a few more years for the 2011 cars (assuming servicing done correctly etc)??
Yep warranty extensions are available for cars coming off manufacturer warranty. Main dealer cars should be offered with 2 year ones i think and if buying privately the extended warranty is transferable. I extended it on my car but a friend who has a similar age car did not. We'll see who ends up having done better in a year or 2... Good luck with the search, as a road car I think they are really quite hard to beat given the breadth of ability they have.
RamboLambo said:
Jules360 said:
Different name. Same drivel. IMHO..
Same name, same non constructive comments, get a life and add some comments/opinions that add value to a debate.Negative, negative, negative, you must be a riot at a party
Edited by RamboLambo on Sunday 3rd May 14:30
isaldiri said:
Yep warranty extensions are available for cars coming off manufacturer warranty. Main dealer cars should be offered with 2 year ones i think and if buying privately the extended warranty is transferable. I extended it on my car but a friend who has a similar age car did not. We'll see who ends up having done better in a year or 2...
Good luck with the search, as a road car I think they are really quite hard to beat given the breadth of ability they have.
Yes...I just view it in the same category as insurance. Hopefully won't need it, but gives a bit of peace of mind and removes some of the potential hassle of ownership.Good luck with the search, as a road car I think they are really quite hard to beat given the breadth of ability they have.
I'm just scarred by my Lada experience as a 17 year old. Kept on breaking down, but learned a bit about engines!
...and on a different technological plane of existence to a McLaren! Although it helped me work out that the number one priority for me is a car that gets from A to B! Saw someone finalising on his 12c when I went to do the same one 650 and was wondering at the time if I should have gone down the 12c path and saved quite a bit. Never got to drive one so can't comment on what the 12c is like comparatively but can vouch for the 650 spider being no different to the coupe except for a bit more noise coming through naturally. However I would never go for a spider/convertible as I have no use for one and even with the looks of the 650 spider being quite similar, there are still differences in the silhouette that I don't like.
Looks wise the 12c is a grower and my other half actually thought we were picking up the 12c that was parked outside the dealership as I only told her the colour! Overall as many have said, a brilliant car and we have no problems driving on the crappy roads in London. The vehicle lift is a godsend not only for the speed humps but also the numerous potholes. The damping is actually good enough to sometimes give a better ride than my mums Lexus RX
Looks wise the 12c is a grower and my other half actually thought we were picking up the 12c that was parked outside the dealership as I only told her the colour! Overall as many have said, a brilliant car and we have no problems driving on the crappy roads in London. The vehicle lift is a godsend not only for the speed humps but also the numerous potholes. The damping is actually good enough to sometimes give a better ride than my mums Lexus RX
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