So I test drove a 12C today
Discussion
Those who frequently visit the Aston Martin forum will know that I'm shortly to be parting ways with my V12 Vantage as I look for an automatic supercar that may be better suited for everyday use. I narrowed this down to the 458, 12C and 911 Turbo S.
I was incredibly excited to test drive a 12C this morning. Everything about it seemed perfect with the exception of the gearbox. It felt really slow and delayed compared to the 458. When you downshift in a 458 the change happens the microsecond you click the paddle, but it felt like the 12C had a slight delay which means it felt unresponsive to me. As a dual-clutch gearbox I assumed it would match that of the 458? (Apart from that, everything was perfect).
Looking forward to your thoughts?
I was incredibly excited to test drive a 12C this morning. Everything about it seemed perfect with the exception of the gearbox. It felt really slow and delayed compared to the 458. When you downshift in a 458 the change happens the microsecond you click the paddle, but it felt like the 12C had a slight delay which means it felt unresponsive to me. As a dual-clutch gearbox I assumed it would match that of the 458? (Apart from that, everything was perfect).
Looking forward to your thoughts?
Edited by controlz on Wednesday 17th June 16:07
The gearbox is brilliant, IMHO, it performs better in track mode, and is instant, you just need to get it on song.
You wont regret it, and people will notice you and appreciate a British designed, British built car with a heritage of racing, apart from the current ring taxis of course, buy they are Hondas
You wont regret it, and people will notice you and appreciate a British designed, British built car with a heritage of racing, apart from the current ring taxis of course, buy they are Hondas
As above, if you select track mode the gearbox is instantaneous, it was the whole package for me that did it the suspension is in a different league to anything else and it's that what makes it so usable IMHO
I like the option of having a superb gearbox in track mode and the suspension in normal mode for the road if I want to use it manually.
It's a hell of a car for the money !
I like the option of having a superb gearbox in track mode and the suspension in normal mode for the road if I want to use it manually.
It's a hell of a car for the money !
cwin said:
As above, if you select track mode the gearbox is instantaneous, it was the whole package for me that did it the suspension is in a different league to anything else and it's that what makes it so usable IMHO
I like the option of having a superb gearbox in track mode and the suspension in normal mode for the road if I want to use it manually.
It's a hell of a car for the money !
Interesting, I didn't put it in Track mode as the salesman said the gear speed change doesn't change. Why do the put a slower shift in Normal/Sport? Seems a bit pointless.I like the option of having a superb gearbox in track mode and the suspension in normal mode for the road if I want to use it manually.
It's a hell of a car for the money !
Hi Controlz, I witnessed you getting into the V12V as I was selling mine for a 12C.
Looks like you are considering the right option with the 12C.
If you are going to use the car regularely, which I think I remember you do, then forget the 458...
The Porsche will be bullet proof and easier to live with I am sure but will be boring.
The 12C has been such a brilliant car for the last 8 months for me. I do not regret the V12V.
Looks like you are considering the right option with the 12C.
If you are going to use the car regularely, which I think I remember you do, then forget the 458...
The Porsche will be bullet proof and easier to live with I am sure but will be boring.
The 12C has been such a brilliant car for the last 8 months for me. I do not regret the V12V.
mb1 said:
Hi Controlz, I witnessed you getting into the V12V as I was selling mine for a 12C.
Looks like you are considering the right option with the 12C.
If you are going to use the car regularely, which I think I remember you do, then forget the 458...
The Porsche will be bullet proof and easier to live with I am sure but will be boring.
The 12C has been such a brilliant car for the last 8 months for me. I do not regret the V12V.
Thanks for your post. Funnily, it was your thread in the AM forum that made me go and want to test drive the 12C! I'm still a bit unconvinced though, I really felt like the gearbox was sluggish - it reminded me of the Sportshift single clutch in the Vantage S. The 12C didn't seem any more practical to me over the 458 from a daily driver perspective. What makes you feel differently?Looks like you are considering the right option with the 12C.
If you are going to use the car regularely, which I think I remember you do, then forget the 458...
The Porsche will be bullet proof and easier to live with I am sure but will be boring.
The 12C has been such a brilliant car for the last 8 months for me. I do not regret the V12V.
Can I suggest you go back and have another drive. What year is the one you are driving and which dealer? Seriously as for day to day driving the McLaren will knock the socks off a 458. Comfort, fun, running costs if that bother you,
Make sure it has had all the latest software updates. Try driving it in auto to start with. Then put the car into track/sport mode and then drive it like you stole it!! Trust me you won't say it's slow then!! if you have it in manual and you are cruising round town it will not change up if you are not going fast enough so the change may seem slow. Personally..I leave mine in auto unless I want to play.
Mclarens are a whole different ball game from an Aston or a Ferrari You have to drive a McLaren differently...I left foot brake for example....they are simply stunning as to ride comfort. So go back ..have another drive. it took me a good few miles to understand how to drive it and now I tell you.....they are amazing.
Make sure it has had all the latest software updates. Try driving it in auto to start with. Then put the car into track/sport mode and then drive it like you stole it!! Trust me you won't say it's slow then!! if you have it in manual and you are cruising round town it will not change up if you are not going fast enough so the change may seem slow. Personally..I leave mine in auto unless I want to play.
Mclarens are a whole different ball game from an Aston or a Ferrari You have to drive a McLaren differently...I left foot brake for example....they are simply stunning as to ride comfort. So go back ..have another drive. it took me a good few miles to understand how to drive it and now I tell you.....they are amazing.
Geoff Stilwell said:
Can I suggest you go back and have another drive. What year is the one you are driving and which dealer? Seriously as for day to day driving the McLaren will knock the socks off a 458. Comfort, fun, running costs if that bother you,
Make sure it has had all the latest software updates. Try driving it in auto to start with. Then put the car into track/sport mode and then drive it like you stole it!! Trust me you won't say it's slow then!! if you have it in manual and you are cruising round town it will not change up if you are not going fast enough so the change may seem slow. Personally..I leave mine in auto unless I want to play.
Mclarens are a whole different ball game from an Aston or a Ferrari You have to drive a McLaren differently...I left foot brake for example....they are simply stunning as to ride comfort. So go back ..have another drive. it took me a good few miles to understand how to drive it and now I tell you.....they are amazing.
Geoff, interesting post, thank you. It was 2011 and I am unsure regarding to updates. In terms of my thoughts on a suggish gear change, I am referring to the delay between clicking the paddle and the gear actually changing in manual as opposed to automatic changed. I've been watching some videos too online and it seems like the gap between selecting a gear and it engaging is double as fast in the Ferrari. Perhaps I'm imagining it! How do you think residuals will hold once the 570s and 540c are out?Make sure it has had all the latest software updates. Try driving it in auto to start with. Then put the car into track/sport mode and then drive it like you stole it!! Trust me you won't say it's slow then!! if you have it in manual and you are cruising round town it will not change up if you are not going fast enough so the change may seem slow. Personally..I leave mine in auto unless I want to play.
Mclarens are a whole different ball game from an Aston or a Ferrari You have to drive a McLaren differently...I left foot brake for example....they are simply stunning as to ride comfort. So go back ..have another drive. it took me a good few miles to understand how to drive it and now I tell you.....they are amazing.
controlz said:
Thanks for your post. Funnily, it was your thread in the AM forum that made me go and want to test drive the 12C! I'm still a bit unconvinced though, I really felt like the gearbox was sluggish - it reminded me of the Sportshift single clutch in the Vantage S. The 12C didn't seem any more practical to me over the 458 from a daily driver perspective. What makes you feel differently?
At the risk of unleashing some Ferrari enthusiasts slashing....A few facts that make me think the 12C/650 are much better suited to everyday usage:
- The hydraulic suspension on the 12C means you do not feel like the whole car is falling to pieces every time you hit a small pothole like on the 458.
- The chassis' stiffness is providing a strong feel of sturdiness and solidity.
- I did not notice any slower gear change between the 12C and the 458, except from 1st to 2nd if you are taking it easy where the car will wait for the moment to be right to change. I did find the 458 system a lot more jerky than the 12C and I hate that at slow speed in traffic when you just kiss the accelerator to maintain the right speed and you get a sudden acceleration followed by a sudden de-acceleration for no reason whatsoever. The 458 does that much more prominently.
- Have a look at a 10,000 miles 458 and compare that to a similar age 12C. The 12C ages much better.
- The reaction to the car is very similar to what you get from the Aston, meaning respectful to a rare and tasteful British sportscar. Not the aggressiveness you can experience with a Lambo or Ferrari, or the "take that rich yuppie" attitude you can get when driving a Porsche. All I have are thumbs up, respect and a few questions at the petrol station.
- Finally, I still hear so much reliability issues with Ferraris as soon as you start putting down miles on them (my trip to Le Mans has confirmed that !!).
The 650S feels even more well put together but for me the styling, no performance advantage and the price difference do not warrant upgrading.
I wanted to get a 675LT but missed the opportunity to get a slot when the dealer offered one and then was messed around by people presumably having such slots...
I shall now to be waiting for the 720S :-)
Re car MY, you can find a few threads on that. Mine is a 2012 car and I intentionally kept away from 2011 cars. Production processes and quality went up dramatically over the first year. Most, if not all cars will have the upgrades and ultimately there is little difference. Also, be careful to get the IRIS 2, not just the IRIS 1 upgrade. IRIS 1 is totally useless and very irritating for a daily user...
Re 540/570. These cars are not out until mid next year. They will stay at a premium for at least another year, which will strengthen residuals of the 12C. The 12Cs lost a lot of value after launch but have been very stable for the last year.
Final note, when I went down to Le Mans last week, with a friend of mine in his DB9, we took another 3rd passenger who went from one car to the other. My friend kept telling him, mine is much more comfortable and usable, but at the end of the journey, the 3rd passenger did tell him that the 12C was the much more comfortable car !
mb1 said:
be careful to get the IRIS 2, not just the IRIS 1 upgrade. IRIS 1 is totally useless and very irritating for a daily user...
Hi, could you just elaborate on that a little please, am I correct in that IRIS is just the sat nav unit or does it perform other functions ? I am reliable informed its a nice to have not a need to have and its now £3k to swap.I think the sat nav in my current Gallardo and Porsche are far to complicated and just take the TomTom anyway.
TISPKJ said:
Hi, could you just elaborate on that a little please, am I correct in that IRIS is just the sat nav unit or does it perform other functions ? I am reliable informed its a nice to have not a need to have and its now £3k to swap.
I think the sat nav in my current Gallardo and Porsche are far to complicated and just take the TomTom anyway.
IRIS mainly does sat nav, music, phone. IRIS 2 has a few other things that most of us (including me never use).I think the sat nav in my current Gallardo and Porsche are far to complicated and just take the TomTom anyway.
IRIS 1 cannot do 2 things at once in a reliable manner:
- sat nav will freeze with no warning
- full system will crash and can only be rebooted by stopping the car completely
- white noise going from sat nav voice to music and back
- no music, frozen music player, etc...
- god helps you if you receive a phone call while following directions and listening to music !
The problem is, if it was occasional or rare, that could be bearable, but as soon as you get IRIS 1 to do 1 thing and try to get it to do some thing else, the chances of ending up with nothing is extremely high. Actually I do not think I managed to make more than a 30 minutes journey without it crashing down.
IRIS 2 is a new unit all together. Solves all of the above (which I would say should have never been like that on a car of that price).
If you use a separate sat nav, and only want to listen to music OR take phone calls then you will be fine (on short journeys !).
mb1 said:
TISPKJ said:
Hi, could you just elaborate on that a little please, am I correct in that IRIS is just the sat nav unit or does it perform other functions ? I am reliable informed its a nice to have not a need to have and its now £3k to swap.
I think the sat nav in my current Gallardo and Porsche are far to complicated and just take the TomTom anyway.
IRIS mainly does sat nav, music, phone. IRIS 2 has a few other things that most of us (including me never use).I think the sat nav in my current Gallardo and Porsche are far to complicated and just take the TomTom anyway.
IRIS 1 cannot do 2 things at once in a reliable manner:
- sat nav will freeze with no warning
- full system will crash and can only be rebooted by stopping the car completely
- white noise going from sat nav voice to music and back
- no music, frozen music player, etc...
- god helps you if you receive a phone call while following directions and listening to music !
The problem is, if it was occasional or rare, that could be bearable, but as soon as you get IRIS 1 to do 1 thing and try to get it to do some thing else, the chances of ending up with nothing is extremely high. Actually I do not think I managed to make more than a 30 minutes journey without it crashing down.
IRIS 2 is a new unit all together. Solves all of the above (which I would say should have never been like that on a car of that price).
If you use a separate sat nav, and only want to listen to music OR take phone calls then you will be fine (on short journeys !).
I did try and push for IRIS2 as part of a potential deal but as I said its circa 3k I think it was, also seem to recall thread here where it was 1k to upgrade until this year was it ?
TISPKJ said:
Thanks, I do generally have the radio on or on rare occasions plug in the ipod, but totally take your point about the fact it should work, I have got used to the simplicity of a TomTom whereby even an idiot can use it (and I do) compared to these factory jobs of turning a dial and pressing select 20 times and in the case of the porsche the damn thing being in km anyway.
I did try and push for IRIS2 as part of a potential deal but as I said its circa 3k I think it was, also seem to recall thread here where it was 1k to upgrade until this year was it ?
It was 3k to upgrade before the year end and 7k to upgrade after that. The argument was that it cost 7k but given it should have worked we will discount it to 3k...I did try and push for IRIS2 as part of a potential deal but as I said its circa 3k I think it was, also seem to recall thread here where it was 1k to upgrade until this year was it ?
They might have gone back on that stupid 7k price tag.......
The gearbox speed is quite throttle dependent, even on the track powertrain mode. Hard on the throttle it changes very quickly, otherwise.. much less so especially when compared against the 458. you can obviously use the precog function though for a faster shift....
Usually, build quality always improves over a model run as in theory people get better at doing the same thing after a while. In my experience so far, the 2012 are very slightly better than the 2011s but the 2013s are the ones that show a big build quality improvement (vin 2k+ I think) and the 650s are even better. The 2011s get a bad rep from the first run of cars with a lot of electrical problems but at the moment, the niggles are all mostly sorted and the 2012s have had mostly a lot of the same issues as the 2011s. low production numbers and the mostly handbuilt (ok more hand assembled) nature of the cars has meant there is some variation of quality though even within that.
Usually, build quality always improves over a model run as in theory people get better at doing the same thing after a while. In my experience so far, the 2012 are very slightly better than the 2011s but the 2013s are the ones that show a big build quality improvement (vin 2k+ I think) and the 650s are even better. The 2011s get a bad rep from the first run of cars with a lot of electrical problems but at the moment, the niggles are all mostly sorted and the 2012s have had mostly a lot of the same issues as the 2011s. low production numbers and the mostly handbuilt (ok more hand assembled) nature of the cars has meant there is some variation of quality though even within that.
isaldiri said:
The gearbox speed is quite throttle dependent, even on the track powertrain mode. Hard on the throttle it changes very quickly, otherwise.. much less so especially when compared against the 458. you can obviously use the precog function though for a faster shift....
Speaking of precog, this makes the paddles a bit firmer to push than the 458, I missed changing gears a few times. Oh god.. there goes Controlz complaining at the gear lever again 
I'm in a real dilemma here - -> Enjoyment of Ferrari + the Badge vs Incredible engineering of Mclaren + Less flash!!
controlz said:
Speaking of precog, this makes the paddles a bit firmer to push than the 458, I missed changing gears a few times. Oh god.. there goes Controlz complaining at the gear lever again
I'm in a real dilemma here - -> Enjoyment of Ferrari + the Badge vs Incredible engineering of Mclaren + Less flash!!
That reminds me actually. the 2011/2012 cars have pretty firm paddle throw (you can adjust them to a certain extent). the 2013/650 have much lighter control weights the same paddles (much more like Ferrari). It's not pre cog that does that, simply the way they were setup, precog just gives you the slight indent before the actual gearchange switch triggers. I'm in a real dilemma here - -> Enjoyment of Ferrari + the Badge vs Incredible engineering of Mclaren + Less flash!!
Have to disagree with mb1 earlier, the 458 is IMO every bit as usable as the 12c even if IMO the overall build quality of any 12c is a good bit better. Ok the suspension is firmer but the magride in the 458 really is very good (even if not quite as good as on the R8!) and the car is actually a good bit quieter idling around traffic than the 12c with sports exhaust. It's only above 3k rpm when the exhaust valves open that you get that really blaring and annoying ferrari noise..... Unfortunately the 12c draws no less attention as well....
Would say the cars are different enough to drive you'd instantly know which car you prefer once you drive one about a bit when able to put your foot down so if that doesn't decide you and it's down to other factors, if the Ferrari history badge thing matters to you though, arguably you should give the 458 a try.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 18th June 18:47
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