So I test drove a 12C today
Discussion
isaldiri said:
That reminds me actually. the 2011/2012 cars have pretty firm paddle throw (you can adjust them to a certain extent). the 2013/650 have much lighter control weights the same paddles (much more like Ferrari). It's not pre cog that does that, simply the way they were setup, precog just gives you the slight indent before the actual gearchange switch triggers.
Have to disagree with mb1 earlier, the 458 is IMO every bit as usable as the 12c even if IMO the overall build quality of any 12c is a good bit better. Ok the suspension is firmer but the magride in the 458 really is very good (even if not quite as good as on the R8!) and the car is actually a good bit quieter idling around traffic than the 12c with sports exhaust. It's only above 3k rpm when the exhaust valves open that you get that really blaring and annoying ferrari noise..... Unfortunately the 12c draws no less attention as well....
Would say the cars are different enough to drive you'd instantly know which car you prefer once you drive one about a bit when able to put your foot down so if that doesn't decide you and it's down to other factors, if the Ferrari history badge thing matters to you though, arguably you should give the 458 a try.
A very insightful post, thank you. I believe there is a button on the steering wheel to loosen up the ride a bit although I didn't use it on my test drive I don't think. Do you find that makes a large difference?Have to disagree with mb1 earlier, the 458 is IMO every bit as usable as the 12c even if IMO the overall build quality of any 12c is a good bit better. Ok the suspension is firmer but the magride in the 458 really is very good (even if not quite as good as on the R8!) and the car is actually a good bit quieter idling around traffic than the 12c with sports exhaust. It's only above 3k rpm when the exhaust valves open that you get that really blaring and annoying ferrari noise..... Unfortunately the 12c draws no less attention as well....
Would say the cars are different enough to drive you'd instantly know which car you prefer once you drive one about a bit when able to put your foot down so if that doesn't decide you and it's down to other factors, if the Ferrari history badge thing matters to you though, arguably you should give the 458 a try.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 18th June 18:47
Mb1 - how are you finding the turbo lag compared to the v12. It's the first thing I noticed when it didn't pull away instantly!!
isaldiri said:
Would say the cars are different enough to drive you'd instantly know which car you prefer once you drive one about a bit when able to put your foot down
I tried a 458 spider a 12C and a 650S
458 spider wobbled too much for my liking and the deal I could get on a new 650S made it a no brainer against a 12C
controlz said:
Mb1 - how are you finding the turbo lag compared to the v12. It's the first thing I noticed when it didn't pull away instantly!!
The lag is definitely there but once it gets going, all hell break loose !Usually during a test drive it is difficult to test the car in high revs. Once you get above 6,000 rpm, the 12C is ferocious compared to the V12.
If I remember well, you were not a fan of the V12 instant delivery and twitchy backend.
The 12C is much better planted and grip is phenomenal. Which result in getting off the line MUCH quicker.
isaldiri said:
Have to disagree with mb1 earlier, the 458 is IMO every bit as usable as the 12c even if IMO the overall build quality of any 12c is a good bit better. Ok the suspension is firmer but the magride in the 458 really is very good (even if not quite as good as on the R8!) and the car is actually a good bit quieter idling around traffic than the 12c with sports exhaust. It's only above 3k rpm when the exhaust valves open that you get that really blaring and annoying ferrari noise..... Unfortunately the 12c draws no less attention as well....
I agree to disagree 
I guess you are right, it is a question of feel with the car. When I drove 458s before, I just did not feel in a solid ride.
Never owned a Ferrari. Only test driven them. From what I have been told by owners I understood that reliability is not their strong point when putting circa 10,000 per annum on them. And it does bring (bad) memories of my Lamborghini ownership days.
controlz said:
A very insightful post, thank you. I believe there is a button on the steering wheel to loosen up the ride a bit although I didn't use it on my test drive I don't think. Do you find that makes a large difference?
Mb1 - how are you finding the turbo lag compared to the v12. It's the first thing I noticed when it didn't pull away instantly!!
If I could be pedantic, you are talking about boost threshold not turbo lag. There is some lag above 4k rpm but it's really not such a big deal imo albeit no turbo really can compete with something like the 458's engine response and sharpness.Mb1 - how are you finding the turbo lag compared to the v12. It's the first thing I noticed when it didn't pull away instantly!!
Bumpy ride button on the Ferrari, it does make a difference i find in taking the edge of the usually rubbish surface here and it is daft it isn't the standard setting with the button to firm up the ride like in most other cars but ride wise the 12c has a very clear advantage. The hydraulic suspension in the 12c can give one a slightly odd sense of 'float' though especially in normal mode. all in the 12c is a superb road car i think (there is a reason why i still have mine after 3.5 years and 20+k miles after all!!) but i can see why quite a lot more people have tended to prefer the 458 for various reasons.
isaldiri said:
If I could be pedantic, you are talking about boost threshold not turbo lag. There is some lag above 4k rpm but it's really not such a big deal imo albeit no turbo really can compete with something like the 458's engine response and sharpness.
Bumpy ride button on the Ferrari, it does make a difference i find in taking the edge of the usually rubbish surface here and it is daft it isn't the standard setting with the button to firm up the ride like in most other cars but ride wise the 12c has a very clear advantage. The hydraulic suspension in the 12c can give one a slightly odd sense of 'float' though especially in normal mode. all in the 12c is a superb road car i think (there is a reason why i still have mine after 3.5 years and 20+k miles after all!!) but i can see why quite a lot more people have tended to prefer the 458 for various reasons.
You sound like you've had a lot of experience in both cars?Bumpy ride button on the Ferrari, it does make a difference i find in taking the edge of the usually rubbish surface here and it is daft it isn't the standard setting with the button to firm up the ride like in most other cars but ride wise the 12c has a very clear advantage. The hydraulic suspension in the 12c can give one a slightly odd sense of 'float' though especially in normal mode. all in the 12c is a superb road car i think (there is a reason why i still have mine after 3.5 years and 20+k miles after all!!) but i can see why quite a lot more people have tended to prefer the 458 for various reasons.
Any idea what the shift speed of the 12C is compared the 458. Still watching videos and there seems to be much of a delay between the "click" and the shift. Check these videos out, I have them starting at the right points.
https://youtu.be/LgMJOPggB6Q?t=61
vs
https://youtu.be/rRWV2OfSq8U?t=35
https://youtu.be/LgMJOPggB6Q?t=61
vs
https://youtu.be/rRWV2OfSq8U?t=35
controlz said:
Any idea what the shift speed of the 12C is compared the 458. Still watching videos and there seems to be much of a delay between the "click" and the shift. Check these videos out, I have them starting at the right points.
https://youtu.be/LgMJOPggB6Q?t=61
vs
https://youtu.be/rRWV2OfSq8U?t=35
I think the best thing is to drive both cars and decide for your self,I did and didn't think or find the shift to be slow in the Mclaren compared to the Ferarri and if it was we must be talking milliseconds so why does it matter ?https://youtu.be/LgMJOPggB6Q?t=61
vs
https://youtu.be/rRWV2OfSq8U?t=35
A MC4 12c won the last rounds in GT Cup at Silverstone by a mile over the 458s so the gear changes can't be that bad.
I think the issue for you might be that you're associating the click of the paddles in the mclaren with the changes rather than feel the changes themselves. Before my ex-SLS had its gearbox software changed there were delays of about 1/2 to almost a second from pulling the paddle. After the software change there was a massive difference but still a slight delay and that car is supposed to have the same gearbox as the 458. I've not noticed any delay in changing gear in the mclaren myself so maybe do ask the dealer to try a couple to compare. The delay in shmee's vide of might be when he's changing up and the gearbox doesn't allow changes if it doesn't have enough revs(I assume)to stop the engine from stalling e.g you can't change straight from 1st to 7th. The only real delay I saw was when he was changing up but then again you couldn't always hear the click of the paddles so can't say definitively the gear changes were slow
I drove a 12c a couple of weeks ago and loved every minute of it compared to a Ferrari
It just felt more special, maybe that's with the doors and to me it just felt a special place to be, I was on track as well!
Gearbox felt good with no lag from what I could tell although I did think the creep in 1st gear was quicker than I expected.
Other than that it felt nice to drive very comfortable and the ceramics slowed me down easily from 140mph,
I loved every minute of it! If you want to see what it's like on track go to mclaren themselves and do the track day with them you get 2 track sessions and other stuff for 650 quid which I thought was good value and you got to have plenty of fun
I'm in the middle now of looking at my finances as I'd love the 12c and I actually believe it could be used as a everyday car if needed
It just felt more special, maybe that's with the doors and to me it just felt a special place to be, I was on track as well!
Gearbox felt good with no lag from what I could tell although I did think the creep in 1st gear was quicker than I expected.
Other than that it felt nice to drive very comfortable and the ceramics slowed me down easily from 140mph,
I loved every minute of it! If you want to see what it's like on track go to mclaren themselves and do the track day with them you get 2 track sessions and other stuff for 650 quid which I thought was good value and you got to have plenty of fun
I'm in the middle now of looking at my finances as I'd love the 12c and I actually believe it could be used as a everyday car if needed
breadvan said:
Forgive me if I'm stating the bleeding obvious, but the 12C does have a note-worthy slow gear-change when cruising (for comfort, etc) but it becomes lightning fast when you drive as Ron intended, irrespective of which setting you have the power-train in.
Does the powertrain dial affect the traction control or is that gearchange/throttle only?mb1 said:
controlz said:
Does the powertrain dial affect the traction control or is that gearchange/throttle only?
Traction control is removed (partially) in track modeI don't think you need to worry about the Mac transmission. It is different to the 458 - I have a Speciale - with the Ferrari being more brutal on all occasions. This is good and bad. For the track and fully pressing on on the road I prefer the Ferrari. Matched to the n/a engine, the powertrain is clearly an advantage for the Ferrari. But, for being really good at all types of driving, the McLaren scores. At slower speeds and smaller throttle openings the transmission becomes slower and more comfortable, in fact much more in tune with what you need. When you push the throttle hard, the transmission shifts are very swift indeed but not as 'sharp' as the Ferrari. Remember that you have to push the throttle past the 'stop' - there is a notch in the throttle travel at about 80% to make sure you don't press it full unless you really intend to, at which point there is so much torque that you need to know what you're doing.
I have driven 10,000 fast miles (trips to Venice, Monte Carlo, Scottish Highlands and recently Le Mans accounting for most of that) in my 2014 12C Spider. It is a great car, far ahead of an Aston (had a DB9 and a DBS before) and I don't believe you will be disappointed on the driving front.
It feels very solid and well put together (although my Speciale feels very tight and I love the suspension's feeling of solidity and manliness compared to the McLaren). The McLaren's controls feel lighter and more 'feminine' whereas the Speciale feels like a much more hardcore tool. The noise of the 12C with sports exhaust is good IMO and as a car for all occasions it is very very hard to beat, and almost impossible to beat for point to point speed across ground. Certainly the 458 can't.
I have also driven the standard 458 on track and it is a great car. In my opinion, the press have got these two cars exactly right. The 458 is stunning and feels completely alive, especially the Speciale. The 12C is very modern, unbelievably quick and a little aloof - that comes from the supreme stiffness of the carbon tub mated to the slightly unnatural feeling but highly sophisticated suspension. The suspension changes the normal rules and allows incredible suppleness and body control at the same time. The trade off is a slight feeling that you are more directly connected to the Ferrari, instead the McLaren just wants you to go fast and whether it does it or you do is a little less important than in the 458.
At the end of the day these cars are both brilliant, they do pretty much the same thing but in a different way. It's worth trying the Mac, if for nothing else because it is a new experience. You are not being in any way being short changed by choosing one. If you have never had a Ferrari, that might be a better place to start though. It is something of a zenith for the old way of doing things - n/a engines are still preferable to me, I've heard a lot about the 488 and reserve judgement but I don't think it's engine will be better than the 458's, more technical and more powerful though it may be. Perversely, the 12C makes more sense to me having owned earlier V8 Ferrari's before it.
Don't sweat it. Both are great and you can't make a duff choice IMO.
I have driven 10,000 fast miles (trips to Venice, Monte Carlo, Scottish Highlands and recently Le Mans accounting for most of that) in my 2014 12C Spider. It is a great car, far ahead of an Aston (had a DB9 and a DBS before) and I don't believe you will be disappointed on the driving front.
It feels very solid and well put together (although my Speciale feels very tight and I love the suspension's feeling of solidity and manliness compared to the McLaren). The McLaren's controls feel lighter and more 'feminine' whereas the Speciale feels like a much more hardcore tool. The noise of the 12C with sports exhaust is good IMO and as a car for all occasions it is very very hard to beat, and almost impossible to beat for point to point speed across ground. Certainly the 458 can't.
I have also driven the standard 458 on track and it is a great car. In my opinion, the press have got these two cars exactly right. The 458 is stunning and feels completely alive, especially the Speciale. The 12C is very modern, unbelievably quick and a little aloof - that comes from the supreme stiffness of the carbon tub mated to the slightly unnatural feeling but highly sophisticated suspension. The suspension changes the normal rules and allows incredible suppleness and body control at the same time. The trade off is a slight feeling that you are more directly connected to the Ferrari, instead the McLaren just wants you to go fast and whether it does it or you do is a little less important than in the 458.
At the end of the day these cars are both brilliant, they do pretty much the same thing but in a different way. It's worth trying the Mac, if for nothing else because it is a new experience. You are not being in any way being short changed by choosing one. If you have never had a Ferrari, that might be a better place to start though. It is something of a zenith for the old way of doing things - n/a engines are still preferable to me, I've heard a lot about the 488 and reserve judgement but I don't think it's engine will be better than the 458's, more technical and more powerful though it may be. Perversely, the 12C makes more sense to me having owned earlier V8 Ferrari's before it.
Don't sweat it. Both are great and you can't make a duff choice IMO.
I went for a longer test drive - Precog seems to fix the "slow" gear change I was talking about, so it seems like the 458 has the precog equivalent constantly engaged!?
One think I noticed is the power is very progressive - by that I mean not much power lower down the revs and then suddenly starts to boost you. It wasn't like that in my V12V and the ferrari also felt more linear. Is that a feature of turbo?
One think I noticed is the power is very progressive - by that I mean not much power lower down the revs and then suddenly starts to boost you. It wasn't like that in my V12V and the ferrari also felt more linear. Is that a feature of turbo?
I knew I was going to be in the position to buy my first supercar this year. My V8 Vantage had been enjoyable but business has been good and at last I am in the position I'd always dreamt of!
I've spent lots of time in Car Clubs over the last few year as I love trying different cars and so I joined Auto Vivendi so I could test drive all of the cars on my short list properly. ie by doing 300 miles in each of them, on my own, without sales people around. I couldn't possibly consider spending that amount of money on one without a proper test. I find you learn so much about a car once you are over the initial excitement of the first 50 miles.
I expected to want to buy a 458, so the order was to be to try the 12C first, then a Huracan and save the 458 for last and for glory. Things didn't quite work out as expected though.
12C first. An early coupe with the crashing iris, heavy paddles, no sports exhaust, etc. The one that the press says is too Ron-like and had been rushed out into production and is so forgettable compared to a 458. WOW. It was bloody brilliant! The driving position, the visibility, the speed, the steering and of course the incredible ride. Had a couple of unforgettable drives in it and was shocked at how much I enjoyed the car over a weekend. Wow how good is the 458 going to be if it blows the 12C away!
Huracan next. After 15 miles (or a normal test drive?) I was smitten. This must be the one. The looks. The drama. The awesome dashboard. Everyone taking photos and smiling. It makes you feel like a rock god! Took it out for a proper drive late that night. Hmmmm. Something wasn't quite right. (It didn't have the Dynamic Steering by the way). It was all a bit too...easy. Any junction / roundabout - plant your foot, a few gear changes and you're in license losing speeds without really doing anything? It was too easy. It hooked up and WENT VERY FAST. Around corners, it felt so planted that you just guided it carefully at VERY HIGH speeds. it was TOO easy to go TOO fast. Hmmmmm. The 12C felt emotional and the Huracan felt sterile in the way it drove. Even more confusing!
So finally the 458. The crown is waiting to be claimed. Every review I have ever devoured said just says how incredible it is.
But it doesn't start very well. After half an hour in busy traffic on the M40 at 50 mph I'm struggling to modulate my speed. I'm either accelerating or decelerating. This is annoying. After an hour my ankle hurts as its in an awkward position and bent back slightly (I'm about 5' 10"). This car needs to be amazing when I finally get going because getting anywhere far is going to hurt. Finally I do get to the good roads and yes, the engine is a screamer and my enthusiasm is back!
But. This thing when the valves open. Its REALLY annoying me in 'normal' use. Its fine when youre on it and the car is screaming but you can't always be on it! In normal/brisk/quick driving, you accelerate a little bit, normal response and then the valves open and you get BLARE straight away. Stop it! Be loud when I'm on it yes but stop BLARING when I want to drive briskly. Its not a nice noise. Its just a loud BLARE>. I don't remember that in the reviews? I do remember Clarkson saying it gets a bit shouty but dismissed it as his nonsensical winding up of James May but that actually is spot on.
I get home that night dejected by the Ferrari - as you can probably see, I had the found whole experience ruined by lots of irritating quirks. I couldn't possibly consider doing any road trips in that car. I've dreamt and worked hard for 20 years to be at this point - when I can commit to buying the Ferrari I had always assumed I would buy. Even when I hadn't particularly enjoyed the 430 I'd tried before I had still assumed I would want the 458.
So there was a very clear, and unexpected, winner for me. Skip forward a month or two and a 12C Spider is due to arrive in my garage in the next week or two. Cannot wait!
I've spent lots of time in Car Clubs over the last few year as I love trying different cars and so I joined Auto Vivendi so I could test drive all of the cars on my short list properly. ie by doing 300 miles in each of them, on my own, without sales people around. I couldn't possibly consider spending that amount of money on one without a proper test. I find you learn so much about a car once you are over the initial excitement of the first 50 miles.
I expected to want to buy a 458, so the order was to be to try the 12C first, then a Huracan and save the 458 for last and for glory. Things didn't quite work out as expected though.
12C first. An early coupe with the crashing iris, heavy paddles, no sports exhaust, etc. The one that the press says is too Ron-like and had been rushed out into production and is so forgettable compared to a 458. WOW. It was bloody brilliant! The driving position, the visibility, the speed, the steering and of course the incredible ride. Had a couple of unforgettable drives in it and was shocked at how much I enjoyed the car over a weekend. Wow how good is the 458 going to be if it blows the 12C away!
Huracan next. After 15 miles (or a normal test drive?) I was smitten. This must be the one. The looks. The drama. The awesome dashboard. Everyone taking photos and smiling. It makes you feel like a rock god! Took it out for a proper drive late that night. Hmmmm. Something wasn't quite right. (It didn't have the Dynamic Steering by the way). It was all a bit too...easy. Any junction / roundabout - plant your foot, a few gear changes and you're in license losing speeds without really doing anything? It was too easy. It hooked up and WENT VERY FAST. Around corners, it felt so planted that you just guided it carefully at VERY HIGH speeds. it was TOO easy to go TOO fast. Hmmmmm. The 12C felt emotional and the Huracan felt sterile in the way it drove. Even more confusing!
So finally the 458. The crown is waiting to be claimed. Every review I have ever devoured said just says how incredible it is.
But it doesn't start very well. After half an hour in busy traffic on the M40 at 50 mph I'm struggling to modulate my speed. I'm either accelerating or decelerating. This is annoying. After an hour my ankle hurts as its in an awkward position and bent back slightly (I'm about 5' 10"). This car needs to be amazing when I finally get going because getting anywhere far is going to hurt. Finally I do get to the good roads and yes, the engine is a screamer and my enthusiasm is back!
But. This thing when the valves open. Its REALLY annoying me in 'normal' use. Its fine when youre on it and the car is screaming but you can't always be on it! In normal/brisk/quick driving, you accelerate a little bit, normal response and then the valves open and you get BLARE straight away. Stop it! Be loud when I'm on it yes but stop BLARING when I want to drive briskly. Its not a nice noise. Its just a loud BLARE>. I don't remember that in the reviews? I do remember Clarkson saying it gets a bit shouty but dismissed it as his nonsensical winding up of James May but that actually is spot on.
I get home that night dejected by the Ferrari - as you can probably see, I had the found whole experience ruined by lots of irritating quirks. I couldn't possibly consider doing any road trips in that car. I've dreamt and worked hard for 20 years to be at this point - when I can commit to buying the Ferrari I had always assumed I would buy. Even when I hadn't particularly enjoyed the 430 I'd tried before I had still assumed I would want the 458.
So there was a very clear, and unexpected, winner for me. Skip forward a month or two and a 12C Spider is due to arrive in my garage in the next week or two. Cannot wait!
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