Discussion
MarkNC said:
No it isn't! Not even close!
I don't know what aspects of driving you care about but it doesn't seem all that related to the actual driving. I have no idea how much time you've actually spent driving these cars. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
What you're saying is just plain incorrect. There's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between THAT car and the 650S Spider it replaced are HUGE. It's feels like a whole different car and it's WAY faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them so I'm pretty sure I know what comes from the tires and what doesn't.
Gosh I hate being the beat-down guy and I feel like a jerk rubbing my cars in your face but I also hate people spreading false information about cars I care deeply about and know quite a bit about.
3 mag tests where the drivers were the sameI don't know what aspects of driving you care about but it doesn't seem all that related to the actual driving. I have no idea how much time you've actually spent driving these cars. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
What you're saying is just plain incorrect. There's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between THAT car and the 650S Spider it replaced are HUGE. It's feels like a whole different car and it's WAY faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them so I'm pretty sure I know what comes from the tires and what doesn't.
Gosh I hate being the beat-down guy and I feel like a jerk rubbing my cars in your face but I also hate people spreading false information about cars I care deeply about and know quite a bit about.
SportAuto (germany): Hockenheim Short
675 - 1:07.2
650 spider - 1:08.7
SportAuto (france): Le Mans Bugatti
675 - 1:44.04
650 coupe - 1:46.17
Motortrend: Willow Springs
675 - 1:24.29
650 spider - 1:25.88
the 650 was not in any case using trofeos which would probably gain a second at minimum. On Mclarenlife, a member (snowhorn) on the same trofeo tyre mentioned he was a bit over 2 seconds faster at Circuit of the Americas (2:22 on the 675) compared to his previous 12c. That's a lot of time obviously and is very impressive imo to have gained that much purely from chassis improvements but per your post above, 'WAY faster' suggests rather more than a second or so over a minute and a half lap on average.
With regards to handling, I'd hazard a guess that you think the 650 and 12c handle very differently...? Well I don't. Faster and heavier steering, firmer suspension, much slicker gearshifts but fundamentally the cars handle and feedback are very similar in my book. The 675 has that further ramped up over the 650 and an added rawness somehow added (how much of that is purely due to less sound insulation I couldn't say) but the cars I repeat, are not to me night and day different as you say.
To use a Porsche analogy, the 675 to 650 is like the RS to gt3 to me. You consider it to be more akin RS to a standard c2s I'd assume. Well fair enough we can disagree as it's subjective but I'm not about to tell you you're dead wrong and spreading false information about the cars...
isaldiri said:
the 650 was not in any case using trofeos which would probably gain a second at minimum.
Maybe on a track like Spa or COTA but I wouldn't bet on it around those tiny little tracks you're talking about. isaldiri said:
On Mclarenlife, a member (snowhorn) on the same trofeo tyre mentioned he was a bit over 2 seconds faster at Circuit of the Americas (2:22 on the 675) compared to his previous 12c. That's a lot of time obviously and is very impressive imo to have gained that much purely from chassis improvements but per your post above, 'WAY faster' suggests rather more than a second or so over a minute and a half lap on average.
I know Josh. I've driven on that track with him. He's a monster around COTA! He drove that 12C so many times on COTA he could probably tell you where every bump is. I'm certain that when he has as much seat time in the 675LT as he had in his 12C he'll have an even faster time - especially around a longer, faster track like COTA. But we probably won't know because Josh is probably going to be so in love with his new 570S GT4 that he'll likely just tourist drive the 675LT now. Once he gets really going in that car on slicks he's going to be even faster!
isaldiri said:
I'd hazard a guess that you think the 650 and 12c handle very differently...? Well I don't.
To use a Porsche analogy, the 675 to 650 is like the RS to gt3 to me. You consider it to be more akin RS to a standard c2s I'd assume. Well fair enough we can disagree as it's subjective but I'm not about to tell you you're dead wrong and spreading false information about the cars...
In my opinion the 650S with Trofeos and bucket seats would still misses out on the largest differences in feel between the two cars. On steering alone they have a very different feel - the 675 rack is faster and steering more direct because the front wheel assembly is taken from the P1. On suspension alone they have a very different feel - there's no float in the 675, it holds the road much better. It's also much more confidence inspiring on track because it doesn't get as squirrelly on big brake applications or at full throttle down straights. On throttle application alone they have a very different feel - the 675 builds up speed and feels way more torquey than the the HP numbers suggest is should. In addition the cars feels like it has a lighter flywheel and the engine spins more quickly. I have no idea if it does or doesn't but it certainly builds up revs faster. Mathematically the LT has to be faster than the 650S.To use a Porsche analogy, the 675 to 650 is like the RS to gt3 to me. You consider it to be more akin RS to a standard c2s I'd assume. Well fair enough we can disagree as it's subjective but I'm not about to tell you you're dead wrong and spreading false information about the cars...
I completely agree the 12C and 650S feel pretty much the same. There's an example of tires - the Corsa tires on 650S had more a little more bite than the regular P-Zeros and the steering was a tiny bit crisper which made turn-in a little quicker. But both cars had the same overall floaty suspension with the exception that the 650S dialed out the "thunk" you'd get from the chassis over bumps in the 12C. 650S has a little more torque as well but nothing on par with the changes from 650S to 675LT which feels like a very different car. I could go on for hours about the minor differences between those two cars but, like you, I think they amount to very slight changes for the better. The main reasons I switched is the 12C Spiders had a strange idle that produced a somewhat annoying (to me) drone at stop lights with the roof down (fixed on 650S), the carbon ceramic brakes on 12C were fine on track but horribly grabby when you tried to stop smoothly on the road (fixed on 650S), the big chassis "thunks" were dialed out and I liked the styling better. Brake feel on 650S was absolutely wonderful and McLaren has now nailed brakes and steering (to the point I describe them now as "delicious") on each successive model after 12C and that includes the P1 of course.
As for SportAuto and other magazines times, I take them with a grain of salt. Put someone truly experienced driving McLarens in them and then ask them to set some comparative lap times and I confident you'd get bigger differences. I think most reviewers who drive McLarens never really spend enough time learning them to get to get the most out of them. In fact I think that was the big detriment of the 12C - you really needed to learn how to unleash the dragon. It wasn't second nature like Ferraris with their hair-trigger throttles (I've owned a few of those too, and still own one). In a McLaren you really have to commit to the throttle - it's a much longer throw than other supercar brands. A few early reviewers didn't put the time in (or just old dogs not willing to learn new tricks) and called them boring and that stuck even though it was never really the case. If a 12C couldn't scare the crap out of you then you weren't really driving it properly. I owned a 458 and a 12C at the same time and the 12C was significantly faster. In the end I sold my 458 because it was less exciting to drive. That doesn't mean it deserved to win the reviews (because the 458 was just a wonderful well-resolved car whereas the 12C still had some teething problems) but it didn't deserve to be called boring and I think those reviews caused McLaren to change their thinking, for the better, about what people really wanted from them.
McLaren has slowly been correcting this by tuning in more throttle and steering response with each new model and I think people will have far less issues getting the 720S to sit up and beg because it's wonderfully responsive and they've taken the transmission programming in house and it's utterly superb now. Sport is really SPORT! now where it was more sedate in the prior models not counting the P1.
Here's another example: When I hear people talk about turbo lag in a McLaren I think I know what's happening - they're just not pushing the throttle far enough and/or quickly enough and the car is launching in a comfortable way instead of with full thrust - then they're quickly in higher gears and not really feeling the full power until they get into the proper rev range. You boot the thing from the get-go and these cars can scare the hell out of you even without launch control - 12C could jump off the line way faster than 458 for example. If you only press down on the throttle enough to cause a Ferrari 458 to lurch to attention you won't get the proper result out of the McLaren. It will build up speed just fine but not with the immediate surge you'd get if you quickly put your foot all the way down. Compared to Ferrari, you have to really punch a McLaren a lot harder to get it to shift down. The throttle on a McLaren is far more analog than Ferrari's more digital version. There's more room to play with it and be smooth. They really do think of the car as a luxury supercar so they want it to be comfortable for sedate driving as well as going nuts on the track. With 720S there's slightly different thinking around the Super Series that they can afford to do now that they have a second range of cars (Sports Series, i.e. 570S/GT) to sell.
Anyway I don't want to keep pushing this. The 675LT is a truly a special car. I've debated long and hard about selling mine to pay for the 720S and now, even having driven then 720S and being totally in love with it, I don't think I can let the 675LT Spider go. Had I kept the 650S there would have been no question it would have gone and I heavily debated keeping the 650S until the720S arrived but, having had two LT coupe variants with bucket seats (sold the LT coupe when the HS was incoming) I just couldn't resist the idea of a comfy-seat version as more of a daily driver. And perhaps THIS is why I've been kind of rude and condescending about your (perfectly valid, sorry for my tone) opinion that seats and tires would make them close: prior to getting the LT Spider I was pretty certain those comfier/heavier seats would make it feel more like a slightly faster 650S but it doesn't. It still feels like a 675LT but it's easier to get in and out of because you sit a little higher and it's more comfortable for long drives. That's it. The performance differences, if they exist, are hardly perceptible and that's even on the Spider which is heavier still than the coupe.
Even with the comfy seats it's still more of a monster than the 650S ever was and whatever unnoticeable difference it loses in performance (it loses NOTHING in driving enjoyment) to the coupe is easily forgotten when you drop the roof or even just the rear window. Plus the suspension makes it far more enjoyable to drive. The main thing I like so much more about the 675LT Spider as a daily driver is that it doesn't have that strange "float" that came from the 12C/650S' magic-carpet style suspension.
With the tighter suspension the 675LT is way less up and down and more straight ahead on track and has the side benefit of making it way more pleasing to drive on the road. I'm sure I'm not explaining this properly and prior to this edit I'm not sure what I wrote made sense but this is the best way I can explain it.
Edited by MarkNC on Monday 17th April 07:44
woppum said:
Enjoyed that. Interesting you use 2 sets of wheels with the P1. I just use the Trofeos. Brilliant in the dry and a challenge in the wet. On track they are sublime but don't last long! I'm possibly doing a 5 day trip through Europe in May, I will probably put the corsa's on for that.
I have over 7,500 miles on my P1 in just over two years and I would have gone through several sets of Trofeos if I used them on the road and probably would have avoided driving it on wet days that weren't a problem at all with the Corsas. I have tracked it a few times on Corsas as well and they were OK. I drove home from the track (about 70 miles) one time in my 675LT on Trofeos in pouring rain & heavy traffic. I was on pins and needles worrying about breaking traction if I had to make a defensive move - even in the more powerful P1 on Corsas I wouldn't have had that fear. If you can get heat into the Trofeos you can still use them in the wet but that's really hard to do on a public highway when it's pouring rain.
Speaking of tires, the new P-Zeros on the 720S are absolutely awesome! Imagine Trofeo-type grip but with proper road treads. I have no idea how they did it but they nailed those tires - the car felt so incredibly planted no matter how hard I pushed it. Even with wider tires up front I felt zero tramlining on routes where I would have normally felt it in the 650S on Corsas. I even had it out on wet roads on the morning of the final day I had the car and it was still great. Well done Pirelli!
woppum said:
Re 720s I'm sure you can't say too much. Is it as good as I hope it is?
Better! It's hard to express how good it is without writing pages and pages of detail. But suffice to say it is absolutely WONDEFUL! Mark Vinnels and I did a 5 hour drive from Washington DC to Raleigh, NC, some of it in heavy I95 traffic, and we arrived totally refreshed and invigorated. And that was after me driving it around the Dulles/Virginia area for about 3 hours waiting for his flight to arrive. You just never want to get out of this car!It's like the 570S and the 675LT had a baby that grew up to be super-smart, super-stylish and super-athletic all at the same time. It's a massive leap over 650S and really feels like a completely new car in so many ways. Even though it was in a color scheme that was not to my liking (McLaren Orange, which is non-metallic, with carbon fiber hood - a combo which was not terribly flattering to the car), and it had the 650S steering wheel and was missing several must-have features (electric seats, HomeLink, electric steering column and one or two others I'm forgetting) I still would have bought this 11,000 mile prototype if they had been willing to sell it to me! It was just so amazing to drive. Even the color started growing on me!
It's going to get incredible reviews and be in very high demand. It does everything so well and the visibility out of the car is like no other supercar I know of. That folding dash, which I thought was an unnecessary gimmick the first time I saw the car, turned out to be absolutely AWESOME for busy highway driving - especially at night! Folding it down, taking the steering wheel down 2 inches and turning off the center display gives you a focus on the road around you like no other car I've ever been in. I can see why it will be an awesome feature on the track. The gadgetry of the dash and center display is so massively improved over IRIS to the point that now it finally matches the driving experience of the cars themselves. It's really, really good now.
I'm happy to answer a few questions about but I prefer to leave the proper reviews to the professional reviewers. That said, I'm confident that you're going to absolutely love the car and it would be awesome for road trips.
Edited by MarkNC on Monday 17th April 07:49
MarkNC said:
With regards to handling you have no clue what you're talking about.
Are these Porsches more cars you've only had "a brief go" in? I've not driven either of them so I have no opinion there. Have you read the brochures and come up with the differences or just gleaned this from folks on forums who want to believe their 650S could be as fast as 675LT? I owned both together for good while and I nevered suffered from that delusion. Your original premise that a 650S with Trofeos and bucket seats would be "almost as quick as a 675 and far closer in feel" is just plain wrong and it completely ignores the largest differences in feel between the two cars.
Mathematically the LT has to be faster than the 650S but on feel, which is my main argument with you, you're just wrong. I have thousands of miles and hundreds of hours of "feel" to back up my position whereas you've had "a brief go".
Anyway I don't want to keep pushing this argument. The 675LT is a truly a special car. I've debated long and hard about selling mine to pay for the 720S and now, even having driven then 720S and being totally in love with it, I don't think I can let the 675LT Spider go. And perhaps THIS is why I'm so put off by your idea the seats and tires would make them close: I seriously thought with those seats it would feel closer to the 650S but it doesn't. It feels like the 675LT but it's easier to get in and out of and you sit a little higher.
I may not have a clue about what I'm talking about but equally I've also not changed my mind about what I thought of a car after a semi decent test drive of it so I don't need thousands of miles to familiarise myself with a car. Are these Porsches more cars you've only had "a brief go" in? I've not driven either of them so I have no opinion there. Have you read the brochures and come up with the differences or just gleaned this from folks on forums who want to believe their 650S could be as fast as 675LT? I owned both together for good while and I nevered suffered from that delusion. Your original premise that a 650S with Trofeos and bucket seats would be "almost as quick as a 675 and far closer in feel" is just plain wrong and it completely ignores the largest differences in feel between the two cars.
Mathematically the LT has to be faster than the 650S but on feel, which is my main argument with you, you're just wrong. I have thousands of miles and hundreds of hours of "feel" to back up my position whereas you've had "a brief go".
Anyway I don't want to keep pushing this argument. The 675LT is a truly a special car. I've debated long and hard about selling mine to pay for the 720S and now, even having driven then 720S and being totally in love with it, I don't think I can let the 675LT Spider go. And perhaps THIS is why I'm so put off by your idea the seats and tires would make them close: I seriously thought with those seats it would feel closer to the 650S but it doesn't. It feels like the 675LT but it's easier to get in and out of and you sit a little higher.
The 675 is a very special car, I fully agree and I'm hardly suggesting it's not. It is however not in my opinion a night and day different car from a 650 shod with trofeos and buckets. Not saying it will feel the same as obviously it doesn't but a big part of the difference to me comes from the cup tyres and seats.
A good friend who is a terrific driver and who I very much agree with on most things driving related has a 675 and has said about the it that "it's a P11 on steroids, faster, sharper, more focused". Your description of the 675 suggests it's a completely different car to the prior P11 cars and I know who I'd trust personally.
Anyway we're at crossed wires here, I don't agree with your subjective interpretation of the way the cars drive and you'll say I'm clueless and talking nonsense. You have a lot of Mclaren cars but (thankfully) not a monopoly on what people think of the cars.
MarkNC said:
Plus the suspension makes it far more enjoyable to drive. The one thing you've not accounted for was the kinetic energy the 650S wasted floating up and down on its far softer suspension. The 675LT doesn't do that so it is WAY more direct directionally-speaking open track and has the side benefit of making it way more pleasing to drive on the road.
This I have to take issue with. How much suspension travel does the 650 have compared to the 675? Actual numbers please not what you feel. The considerably firmer suspension on the 675 speeds up the rate of weight transfer so the car feels more direct but it's not as if the 650 rolls about so badly that it's seriously affecting it's CoG or cornering ability as your description seems to suggest.
Edited by isaldiri on Saturday 1st April 11:03
MarkNC said:
Ok, you're quick to judge and you don't change you mind even after thousands of miles of driving. I think that's enough said right there. There's no point arguing with someone whose an expert after one test drive.
Did I say I was an expert? I said "not changed my mind about what I thought of a car after a semi decent test drive of it", that applies for the last few cars I have owned as well as others I have been fortunate enough to drive through friends. For what I like in a car, so far I've been able to get a good feel for it in a car pretty quickly. Up to you whether you choose to believe that or whether you will tell me I'm plain wrong again. Not sure there's any point continuing a discussion with someone who continually tells me I have no clue as well without actually reading what I'm writing.
MarkNC said:
isaldiri said:
IMO the 650 with bucket seats and trofeos is a car that is almost as quick as a 675 and far closer in feel than you suggest. Or it feels that way to me at least anyway in the aspects of driving I care about, you might and clearly do feel differently about it.
No it isn't! Not even close! I don't know what aspects of driving you care about but it doesn't seem all that related to the actual driving. I have no idea how much time you've actually spent driving these cars. I turned in my 650S Spider with over 9,300 miles on it and I've got thousands of miles the three 675LT variants (sold the coupe with 2,200 miles) I've owned. Between all those cars I have lots of track days.
What you're saying is just plain incorrect. There's a lot more to the 675LT than simply new seats and tires. The throttle response is noticeably different than 650S. The steering feel is noticeably different from 650S. The suspension is noticeably different than 650S. The sound and vibrations are noticeably different from 650S. The ride quality is noticeably different from 650S. The steering rack speed is noticeably different from 650S. The turning ratio is noticeably different from 650S. The downforce (more importantly stability) is noticeably different than 650S and the overall performance is noticeably different than 650S.
I currently have two 675LT variants. One of them, the 675LT Spider has the same beautiful semi-aniline leather interior, with heated electric seats, as my 650S did. The difference between THAT car and the 650S Spider it replaced are HUGE. It's feels like a whole different car and it's WAY faster. That has nothing to do with the tires. I have two sets of wheels for my P1, one with Trofeos and one with Corsas and I swap between them so I'm pretty sure I know what comes from the tires and what doesn't.
Gosh I hate being the beat-down guy and I feel like a jerk rubbing my cars in your face but I also hate people spreading false information about cars I care deeply about and know quite a bit about.
MarkNC said:
AndyDubbya said:
Don't worry, you're not being like a jerk.
Yeah I get it. I'm done arguing with him. Shame, as I liked your obviously well-founded views on the different cars.
Edited by AndyDubbya on Saturday 1st April 18:29
isaldiri said:
Did I say I was an expert? I said "not changed my mind about what I thought of a car after a semi decent test drive of it", that applies for the last few cars I have owned as well as others I have been fortunate enough to drive through friends. For what I like in a car, so far I've been able to get a good feel for it in a car pretty quickly. Up to you whether you choose to believe that or whether you will tell me I'm plain wrong again.
Not sure there's any point continuing a discussion with someone who continually tells me I have no clue as well without actually reading what I'm writing.
I apologize. You're entitled to your opinion and I realize now that I was being an ass. Not sure there's any point continuing a discussion with someone who continually tells me I have no clue as well without actually reading what I'm writing.
MarkNC said:
.....
Not needed but appreciated. No hard feelings anyhow - I've spoken with you briefly a few years ago at Spa and while I can't quite summon up the enthusiasm for Mclaren Automotive that I once had back in 2011 any longer, I am genuinely glad that people like you do feel that way. 
isaldiri said:
Not needed but appreciated. No hard feelings anyhow - I've spoken with you briefly a few years ago at Spa and while I can't quite summon up the enthusiasm for Mclaren Automotive that I once had back in 2011 any longer, I am genuinely glad that people like you do feel that way.
I hope you get a chance to drive the 720S soon and I hope it rekindles your enthusiasm for the brand! While they've taken their fair share of baby steps I really do think the company has found their footing and come a long way since they started selling cars in 2011 
Wow, bloody tedious reading a lot of that back and forth. 😂👍
I also have / drive a lot of mclarens, from 540 through to P1 and race a GT3 car now too, the 675 is far better to drive than the 650 for a lot of reasons, not getting into arguments but even at the lower price I'd rather and did spend the extra to get the 675. I was going to sell my 675 after a year of regular use but I'm now having it serviced and taking it home instead as there's nothing else as focussed and exciting on the road/Nurburgring trips and you can't really use a P1 regularly (which I would if I was more wealthy than I am) my coupe has a roof scoop and was specced as light as possible for track work so even more raw than the average 675.
I like the 720 but won't be buying one
I also have / drive a lot of mclarens, from 540 through to P1 and race a GT3 car now too, the 675 is far better to drive than the 650 for a lot of reasons, not getting into arguments but even at the lower price I'd rather and did spend the extra to get the 675. I was going to sell my 675 after a year of regular use but I'm now having it serviced and taking it home instead as there's nothing else as focussed and exciting on the road/Nurburgring trips and you can't really use a P1 regularly (which I would if I was more wealthy than I am) my coupe has a roof scoop and was specced as light as possible for track work so even more raw than the average 675.
I like the 720 but won't be buying one
sone said:
I think the LT will remain as the Speciale is to the 458 and the 720 LT will be the car to put the 675 maybe in the shade. However I reckon the 675 LT will be sort after for some time. Which is a shame really as most will become garage queens!
The Speciale's USP was that it was the last NA V8 made by Ferrari, a celebration if you will ! Whats the 675 LT's USP ? Nothing really.. I like the LT and have been looking into buying one, but i must admit that after the introduction of the 720 it now feels like one of the last 1st generation McLarens and as there is nothing special about the 1st generation McL that is not improved in the new cars, so it is never going to "the last" of an era kind of car. It is great that McL keeps improving its model lineup, but it does very little for the earlier models. Ferrari, Porsche and Aston are enjoying a bit of a late summer resurrection for some of their outgoing models due to the fact that they have only embarking on the "new era" now where McLaren started one generation ago.
M7arthy said:
sone said:
I think the LT will remain as the Speciale is to the 458 and the 720 LT will be the car to put the 675 maybe in the shade. However I reckon the 675 LT will be sort after for some time. Which is a shame really as most will become garage queens!
The Speciale's USP was that it was the last NA V8 made by Ferrari, a celebration if you will ! Whats the 675 LT's USP ? Nothing really.. Gassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff