Discussion
The Surveyor said:
700BHP said:
I'm not a troll and I have not abused anyone.
I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
Oh please, I'm not sure what's more embarrassing. Your trolling of this thread, or your 'I'm new here and I ain't dun nufink' response I simply expected a higher level discourse from people who have the means to buy these vehicles, than "Ooh look at me, I'm buying this and this and it's costing me this much".
Obviously I was wrong and expected far too much, but I personally find it distasteful.
I will discuss what I drive if asked. But I'm not a braggart who will mention it over and over again. And for what it's worth, I actually wasn't aware you could list your vehicles in your profile. Not sure what that would prove though.
Being new means I have no credibility does it? How so? Do long term members views take precedence?
If thats the case I guess I will just have to learn on my feet about the ways and whims of Pistonheads.
Let's start a fresh, on a thread about the future values of the 650s what are your thoughts?
And the use of smilies too, it would appear.
Only you are carrying this on...
In answer to your question, McLarens do very little for me, except the P1 which was beyond my means.
I've driven them all except the 720s. Too many similarities across the range for them to ever be collectible in my opinion, therefore I cannot see the appreciation being mooted by rambolambo, ever happening.
It was those similarities and lack of an inspiring noise, that has kept away from the brand.
Rightly or wrongly, looks and noise are among the main factors in my car buying decisions, so I went with something that fulfilled those criteria better.
I will perhaps revisit the brand when the 720s spider is launched.
baypond said:
Lets face it, McLaren have a disrespect for their clients. They demolished second hand prices by stuffing new cars on the dealerships, who then sold at heavy discounts. inevitably some didn't realise the discounts available were as heavy as they were, and I now know that despite the large discount I had on mine, it could have been a lot more. By killing second hand values immediately, they killed the exclusive tag and prices went down. We are still seeing this play out. Then they stuffed clients again by bringing out 500 650LT coupes, getting everyone to sign up and then announced the spider which flooded buyers capacity with very short times to delivery. Now there are more 675s for sale than 650s.
The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
Elements I agree with there, but McLaren is naturally more exclusive than Ferrari (and Lamborghini for that matter) by the nature of significantly lower production numbers. There are 5 times as many cars coming through the Ferrari gates than are made by McLaren for example. Your point about supply and demand looks to be improving given the much stronger (albeit exaggerated I'm sure) order book than they had when they first launched the 12c. They don't need to limit supply, they need to keep improving the range and increase demand, something they look to be doing given how much better the 720s is than the MP4-12c.The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
The Surveyor said:
Elements I agree with there, but McLaren is naturally more exclusive than Ferrari (and Lamborghini for that matter) by the nature of significantly lower production numbers. There are 5 times as many cars coming through the Ferrari gates than are made by McLaren for example. Your point about supply and demand looks to be improving given the much stronger (albeit exaggerated I'm sure) order book than they had when they first launched the 12c. They don't need to limit supply, they need to keep improving the range and increase demand, something they look to be doing given how much better the 720s is than the MP4-12c.
I don't think they are that exclusive at all. Example, look on here about how many people are getting the sport series, yourself included. It's like a weekly thing on here where some posts up a pic of their new motor. At a local meet recently there was umpteen Mclarens and only 2 lambos, (Mine and a Murci SV). And based on where I live, I've seen way more McLarens than Lambos or Ferraris. Now, I am probably wrong but as someone new to the supercar scene McLarens, from my perspective, are not that exclusive. Or maybe McLaren drivers just take their cars out more. Who knows. As for prices, 12 C prices haven't gone up at all in the past 6 months if anything they have gone down a little and 650s prices have remained pretty static. Collectors cars they are not unless its one of the HSR things or a P1/P1 GTR. The rest, well, the rest will just slowly depreciate the same as any super car.
I'll give you some words of advice. Buy car, drive it, enjoy it.
The Surveyor said:
baypond said:
Lets face it, McLaren have a disrespect for their clients. They demolished second hand prices by stuffing new cars on the dealerships, who then sold at heavy discounts. inevitably some didn't realise the discounts available were as heavy as they were, and I now know that despite the large discount I had on mine, it could have been a lot more. By killing second hand values immediately, they killed the exclusive tag and prices went down. We are still seeing this play out. Then they stuffed clients again by bringing out 500 650LT coupes, getting everyone to sign up and then announced the spider which flooded buyers capacity with very short times to delivery. Now there are more 675s for sale than 650s.
The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
Elements I agree with there, but McLaren is naturally more exclusive than Ferrari (and Lamborghini for that matter) by the nature of significantly lower production numbers. There are 5 times as many cars coming through the Ferrari gates than are made by McLaren for example. Your point about supply and demand looks to be improving given the much stronger (albeit exaggerated I'm sure) order book than they had when they first launched the 12c. They don't need to limit supply, they need to keep improving the range and increase demand, something they look to be doing given how much better the 720s is than the MP4-12c.The only way this will end is for McLaren to adjust supply and demand to keep the machine 'exclusive' and in demand, but given their sales estimates this will not happen. This is why the 720 will struggle, because the premium to the depreciating 650 is too great and their supply at some point soon will exceed demand. 12C and 650s prices will only go up if 720s prices hold to Ferrari levels. That ain't going to happen.
They need to rethink their strategy and realise that the big profits McLaren made from the P1 were from limiting supply.
Never you mind said:
I don't think they are that exclusive at all. Example, look on here about how many people are getting the sport series, yourself included. It's like a weekly thing on here where some posts up a pic of their new motor. At a local meet recently there was umpteen Mclarens and only 2 lambos, (Mine and a Murci SV). And based on where I live, I've seen way more McLarens than Lambos or Ferraris. Now, I am probably wrong but as someone new to the supercar scene McLarens, from my perspective, are not that exclusive. Or maybe McLaren drivers just take their cars out more. Who knows.
I certainly agree that McLaren are proving to be more popular on home soil than abroad, taking sales off Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini which will soften any exclusivity here. I would think it's a different perspective overseas, especially in the US.Never you mind said:
As for prices, 12 C prices haven't gone up at all in the past 6 months if anything they have gone down a little and 650s prices have remained pretty static. Collectors cars they are not unless its one of the HSR things or a P1/P1 GTR. The rest, well, the rest will just slowly depreciate the same as any super car.
That was the point I was trying to make, McLaren values are more influenced by the wider market trend than any beef about the brand. Ferrari prices (at this level) have softened and this is reflected in the cooling off with 12c prices, and therefore 650s prices. I would say there is still a little way for the 650s to fall, but again that will be the same as 458 GTB prices for example.Never you mind said:
I'll give you some words of advice. Buy car, drive it, enjoy it.
On that, I agree 100%12C ( 3,500 ) and 650S ( 2,500 ) worldwide production volumes are far lower than Ferrari 458/488 and Lamborghini Gallardo/Huracan.
The UK takes approx 10% of this overall volume and is about 5 x less than equivalent Ferrari numbers. As such I would consider them far more exclusive and whereas my Ferrari's hardly got a 2nd glance I was get hoards of people around and thumbs up etc with my McLarens wherever I go.
The sports series is more affordable and the "entry level supercar" that's blasts its competition ( Porsche and Audi ) away hence why volumes have increased. My local Lamborghini dealer did admit that McLaren on the same site were selling more than them so the sports series is less exclusive.
With circa 250 650S in the UK name me the Ferrari with the equivalent volume and tell me its not a classic.
Might not be in my lifetime but the 650S will become a sought after car in the not so distant future
The UK takes approx 10% of this overall volume and is about 5 x less than equivalent Ferrari numbers. As such I would consider them far more exclusive and whereas my Ferrari's hardly got a 2nd glance I was get hoards of people around and thumbs up etc with my McLarens wherever I go.
The sports series is more affordable and the "entry level supercar" that's blasts its competition ( Porsche and Audi ) away hence why volumes have increased. My local Lamborghini dealer did admit that McLaren on the same site were selling more than them so the sports series is less exclusive.
With circa 250 650S in the UK name me the Ferrari with the equivalent volume and tell me its not a classic.
Might not be in my lifetime but the 650S will become a sought after car in the not so distant future
exclusive
adjective UK /ɪkˈskluː.sɪv/ US /ɪkˈskluː.sɪv/
exclusive adjective (ONLY FOR SOME)
1. limited to only one person or group of people:
This room is for the exclusive use of guests.
an exclusive interview
2. expensive and only for people who are rich or of a high social class:
an exclusive private club
an exclusive part of town
RL has two McLarens right? Not sure we can call them exclusive then..
adjective UK /ɪkˈskluː.sɪv/ US /ɪkˈskluː.sɪv/
exclusive adjective (ONLY FOR SOME)
1. limited to only one person or group of people:
This room is for the exclusive use of guests.
an exclusive interview
2. expensive and only for people who are rich or of a high social class:
an exclusive private club
an exclusive part of town
RL has two McLarens right? Not sure we can call them exclusive then..
RamboLambo said:
12C ( 3,500 ) and 650S ( 2,500 ) worldwide production volumes are far lower than Ferrari 458/488 and Lamborghini Gallardo/Huracan.
The UK takes approx 10% of this overall volume and is about 5 x less than equivalent Ferrari numbers. As such I would consider them far more exclusive and whereas my Ferrari's hardly got a 2nd glance I was get hoards of people around and thumbs up etc with my McLarens wherever I go.
The sports series is more affordable and the "entry level supercar" that's blasts its competition ( Porsche and Audi ) away hence why volumes have increased. My local Lamborghini dealer did admit that McLaren on the same site were selling more than them so the sports series is less exclusive.
With circa 250 650S in the UK name me the Ferrari with the equivalent volume and tell me its not a classic.
Might not be in my lifetime but the 650S will become a sought after car in the not so distant future
The Gallardo has been around for 10 years plus. Works out at about 1500 cars per year. The 12c got upgraded to the 650s pretty dam quickly so probably works out to about the same as the Gallardo on a per year basis. The UK takes approx 10% of this overall volume and is about 5 x less than equivalent Ferrari numbers. As such I would consider them far more exclusive and whereas my Ferrari's hardly got a 2nd glance I was get hoards of people around and thumbs up etc with my McLarens wherever I go.
The sports series is more affordable and the "entry level supercar" that's blasts its competition ( Porsche and Audi ) away hence why volumes have increased. My local Lamborghini dealer did admit that McLaren on the same site were selling more than them so the sports series is less exclusive.
With circa 250 650S in the UK name me the Ferrari with the equivalent volume and tell me its not a classic.
Might not be in my lifetime but the 650S will become a sought after car in the not so distant future
The 650s has been around for what, 2 years or so so again about 1.2K per year and that's not including the 500 no wait 1000 LTs that where made. And it's already obsolete thanks to the 720S.
This is my problem with McLaren. The life cycle of all their cars is short. Thus you wait for ages to get one then before you know it there is some special edition out, some MSO version then the new model will be out, all in the space of 2/3 years.
Forget it RL, it's not special enough to be a collectors car in the future. You want special get yourself on the secret squirrel Ferrari list or butter up a Porsche dealership.
Never you mind said:
... or butter up a Porsche dealership.
More likely go get the butter and visit a Porsche dealership! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-r9Q-YItnkthecook101 said:
More likely go get the butter and visit a Porsche dealership! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-r9Q-YItnk
Yeah I got shafted by my local Porsche dealer on a 991 GT3 that I had a deposit on for 12 months and was supposedly 4th in the queue. Stuff your Porsches its only a flattened old Beetle sports carI have been saying this for ages...despite its superior technological design, the 12C/650s just isn't as desirable as a 458/488 or 911. The brand is too young, and ultimately this is what affects residuals. A friend of mine just paid £95k for a 2 year old 911 GTS which had a list of £115k when new. With 15k miles. Now thats what i call residuals...
Guys I have found these responses really helpful so thanks. Let's not get too upset with each other. We're just chaps talking about fast cars!
As a Londoner without a garage and leasing an underground parking space at the moment for my AM, I'm also interested to hear whether anybody keeps their car on the street at all? In an ideal world I guess you'd keep them tucked up inside but am interested whether anybody let's them brave the elements and how they have responded? Thanks again.
As a Londoner without a garage and leasing an underground parking space at the moment for my AM, I'm also interested to hear whether anybody keeps their car on the street at all? In an ideal world I guess you'd keep them tucked up inside but am interested whether anybody let's them brave the elements and how they have responded? Thanks again.
Edited by Mr Cod on Tuesday 15th August 18:54
Mr Cod said:
Guys I have found these responses really helpful so thanks. Let's not get too upset with each other. We're just chaps talking about fast cars!
As a Londoner without a garage and leasing an underground parking space at the moment for my AM, I'm also interested to hear whether anybody keeps their car on the street at all? In an ideal world I guess you'd keep them tucked up inside but am interested whether anybody let's them brave the elements and how they have responded? Thanks again.
I left my 650 outside for 6 months and had some tick-over issues, which a quick blast seemed to sort. But it suggests it didn't like water ingress somewhere. The situation has disappeared since it started to sleep in doorsAs a Londoner without a garage and leasing an underground parking space at the moment for my AM, I'm also interested to hear whether anybody keeps their car on the street at all? In an ideal world I guess you'd keep them tucked up inside but am interested whether anybody let's them brave the elements and how they have responded? Thanks again.
Edited by Mr Cod on Tuesday 15th August 18:54
RamboLambo said:
thecook101 said:
More likely go get the butter and visit a Porsche dealership! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-r9Q-YItnk
Yeah I got shafted by my local Porsche dealer on a 991 GT3 that I had a deposit on for 12 months and was supposedly 4th in the queue. Stuff your Porsches its only a flattened old Beetle sports carGassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff