Discussion
Never you mind said:
I'd consider the GT3 RS a super car. Its a fab car and I would have one over a 650s
This^^650s is quicker in a straight line but in every other respect the GT3 RS is a much better and more desirable car. There are way more GT3 RS than 650s yet the value of the Porsche is higher. How can that be?
DT398 said:
650s is quicker in a straight line but in every other respect the GT3 RS is a much better and more desirable car. There are way more GT3 RS than 650s yet the value of the Porsche is higher. How can that be?
The 650 is probably quicker on track than a 991rs on the same tyre (ie Cup2) imo and not just in a straight line. Genuine question, if there wasn't 50% instant appreciation of the RS if bought at list, would you still think it's 'a much better and more desirable car'? The monetary aspect of the GT cars makes it a no brainer of course these days but purely from a driving perspective I'm not really convinced any of the 9X1 generation cars so far are better than 12c/650 nevermind 675.
As far as values go though, I agree with you - the 12c/650 are run of the mill production cars with nothing particularly special to set themselves apart and future models of turbo/ dual clutch/mid engined cars will always supplant them.
Honestly, yes. I was actually talking about the 997RS as much as the 991, so sorry if not clear.
This is part of the "desirability" argument in previous posts. The 911 was a boyhood dream for me (and many others) and before I got bitten by the GT bug, I had numerous cooking 911s and turbo and turbo S, all of which dropped like stones in value and I loved them all. It's a definite help that the current Porsche GT cars are stable in terms of value but it's a secondary consideration for me.
I still think the 650s is a great car but I just don't think they elicit that kind of passion in as many people as Porsche and Ferrari as they just don't have the history. Yet.
This is part of the "desirability" argument in previous posts. The 911 was a boyhood dream for me (and many others) and before I got bitten by the GT bug, I had numerous cooking 911s and turbo and turbo S, all of which dropped like stones in value and I loved them all. It's a definite help that the current Porsche GT cars are stable in terms of value but it's a secondary consideration for me.
I still think the 650s is a great car but I just don't think they elicit that kind of passion in as many people as Porsche and Ferrari as they just don't have the history. Yet.
RamboLambo said:
Its ok Porsche sports car owners have their own forum not in the SUPERcar section
Ahhh I'll bite.How can certain Porsches not be considered a supercar? I remember 12 years ago when I had a 6GT2 the comparable 430 and Gallardo couldn't get anywhere near it - to not call it a supercar is deluded.
Oh and before you ask why I'm posting in here, seeing as I have a 570 and 488 sitting next to it now I'm sure I qualify.
DT398 said:
Honestly, yes. I was actually talking about the 997RS as much as the 991, so sorry if not clear.
I looked at a Black/Orange 997.1 GT3RS, in fact I put a bid in for it however I thought the price at 137K was way over priced hence the owner declined my bid. A few years ago it was a comfortable 70/80K car. Now though I don't think it is worth the asking price. Still a cracking car though and IMHO a much better and probably more rewarding car than the McLaren. However on saying that I would take the 991 over all iterations even the 6 GT3 RS which is considered to be the best. This is mainly down to looks though. I am a sucker for a big wing on car.
Don't get me wrong though, the McLaren has something going for it. Its got some fancy doors and it's meant to be a technical tour de force but that doesn't float everyone's boat. I am but a simple man (kind of like RL I guess) that likes a shouty V10 so I'll stick with me Lambo for the meantime. The McLaren may well be a faster better handling car but at the end of the day some of us buy with our hearts rather than heads which is why I think the 650s and the 12c will be just another super car and one that won't be consigned to "Must own one of these" class of cars. As a car that you "pass in the night" it ticks the boxes but as a keeper? Can't see it myself.
Edited by Never you mind on Tuesday 15th August 23:58
The Surveyor said:
Elements I agree with there, but McLaren is naturally more exclusive than Ferrari (and Lamborghini for that matter) by the nature of significantly lower production numbers. There are 5 times as many cars coming through the Ferrari gates than are made by McLaren for example. Your point about supply and demand looks to be improving given the much stronger (albeit exaggerated I'm sure) order book than they had when they first launched the 12c. They don't need to limit supply, they need to keep improving the range and increase demand, something they look to be doing given how much better the 720s is than the MP4-12c.
Not wanting to let facts get in the way of making a point, however...... 3,300 Mc's build in 2016 against 8,014 Ferrari's. i.e. 2.4 times as many, not 5. Also have to consider that Ferrari included F12, California, 488 and FF & La Ferrari. Many different types, front, mid engined, GT, etc, appealing to a much wider demographic. I.e. McLaren really are limited to the mid engined supercar customer market and there is no evidence yet that demand for their product is stronger than their mid engined competitors when looking at waiting list and depreciation curve. They really need to develop different models (and I think own in house engine). Honestly, we all know Mc would like to also sell 8,000 cars plus a year but the buyers aren't there for the current offerings, hence historic depreciation issues even at low production numbers. It might not be rational, might not be fair, but it appears that more people who can afford them value the offerings of Ferrari more than McLaren. Whether this is down to heritage, engine sound, dealers, warranty, independent service specialist, I don't know? That's what the 'market' seems to be indicating anyway and I see no reason for this to change in the short-medium term? Bizarrely the things putting me off buying a Mac are the clambering over a carbon tub and the flash doors. How about a stunning fresh GT design?garystoybox said:
Not wanting to let facts get in the way of making a point, however...... 3,300 Mc's build in 2016 against 8,014 Ferrari's. i.e. 2.4 times as many, not 5. Also have to consider that Ferrari included F12, California, 488 and FF & La Ferrari. Many different types, front, mid engined, GT, etc, appealing to a much wider demographic. I.e. McLaren really are limited to the mid engined supercar customer market and there is no evidence yet that demand for their product is stronger than their mid engined competitors when looking at waiting list and depreciation curve. They really need to develop different models (and I think own in house engine). Honestly, we all know Mc would like to also sell 8,000 cars plus a year but the buyers aren't there for the current offerings, hence historic depreciation issues even at low production numbers. It might not be rational, might not be fair, but it appears that more people who can afford them value the offerings of Ferrari more than McLaren. Whether this is down to heritage, engine sound, dealers, warranty, independent service specialist, I don't know? That's what the 'market' seems to be indicating anyway and I see no reason for this to change in the short-medium term? Bizarrely the things putting me off buying a Mac are the clambering over a carbon tub and the flash doors. How about a stunning fresh GT design?
Bizarrely, the "flash" doors are massive plus points of the Mac for me.........really not sure I'd buy one with "normal" doors.............my car is bright green.....and when you pull up at a petrol garage and and the doors go up........so do the eye brows..............and then follows the attention...........if you aren't prepared for that or just don't want it..................I can understand why a red Ferrari with normal doors would be preferable.....it all comes down to what you want from the car and the ownership experience............McLaren are barely six years old.............Fezza & Lambo have been at it for decades.......if Mac sold 3k cars last year, thats likely 3k sales that would have gone to Lambo or Fezza ordinarily........in my opinion thats a good thing...........I actually like the Mclaren brand because it's "different"........to me....Fezza's and Lambo's are a bit "lottery winner" to me...........like the default choice that you should choose.......bore out when I had a 430 and had about 5 "w
ker" signs in a few weeks just trying to get out of junctions!Sarnie said:
Bizarrely, the "flash" doors are massive plus points of the Mac for me.........really not sure I'd buy one with "normal" doors.............my car is bright green.....and when you pull up at a petrol garage and and the doors go up........so do the eye brows..............and then follows the attention...........if you aren't prepared for that or just don't want it..................I can understand why a red Ferrari with normal doors would be preferable.....it all comes down to what you want from the car and the ownership experience............
McLaren are barely six years old.............Fezza & Lambo have been at it for decades.......if Mac sold 3k cars last year, thats likely 3k sales that would have gone to Lambo or Fezza ordinarily........in my opinion thats a good thing...........I actually like the Mclaren brand because it's "different"........to me....Fezza's and Lambo's are a bit "lottery winner" to me...........like the default choice that you should choose.......bore out when I had a 430 and had about 5 "wker" signs in a few weeks just trying to get out of junctions!
+1McLaren are barely six years old.............Fezza & Lambo have been at it for decades.......if Mac sold 3k cars last year, thats likely 3k sales that would have gone to Lambo or Fezza ordinarily........in my opinion thats a good thing...........I actually like the Mclaren brand because it's "different"........to me....Fezza's and Lambo's are a bit "lottery winner" to me...........like the default choice that you should choose.......bore out when I had a 430 and had about 5 "w
ker" signs in a few weeks just trying to get out of junctions!Never you mind said:
As a car that you "pass in the night" it ticks the boxes but as a keeper? Can't see it myself.
I would have agreed with you a year ago, but 2 years into ownership, the thing just keeps growing on me. I don't know why. I think the race to higher and higher BHP has to end soon, as the payback in driving pleasure on the roads is no longer there. Why pay 100k extra for 720, 488 etc when you already have the performance. To be honest, each of my incremental cars will be slower, but with what I think will be driver experience. Elise, Caterham, 1960's Alfa GT Junior etcEdited by Never you mind on Tuesday 15th August 23:58
garystoybox said:
Not wanting to let facts get in the way of making a point, however...... 3,300 Mc's build in 2016 against 8,014 Ferrari's. i.e. 2.4 times as many, not 5. Also have to consider that Ferrari included F12, California, 488 and FF & La Ferrari. Many different types, front, mid engined, GT, etc, appealing to a much wider demographic. I.e. McLaren really are limited to the mid engined supercar customer market and there is no evidence yet that demand for their product is stronger than their mid engined competitors when looking at waiting list and depreciation curve. They really need to develop different models (and I think own in house engine). Honestly, we all know Mc would like to also sell 8,000 cars plus a year but the buyers aren't there for the current offerings, hence historic depreciation issues even at low production numbers. It might not be rational, might not be fair, but it appears that more people who can afford them value the offerings of Ferrari more than McLaren. Whether this is down to heritage, engine sound, dealers, warranty, independent service specialist, I don't know? That's what the 'market' seems to be indicating anyway and I see no reason for this to change in the short-medium term? Bizarrely the things putting me off buying a Mac are the clambering over a carbon tub and the flash doors. How about a stunning fresh GT design?
I was going on the last set of figures published, in 2015 McLaren made circa 1,600 cars and Ferrari were pushing to increase to 9,000 cars per annum. It does show how the market trend is shifting in McLarens favour though, and no I don't believe Ferrari are limiting production numbers to 7,000 to preserve exclusivity (as recently announced), it's simply because others are taking a larger market share. It certainly looks like fewer and fewer people are following your 'market' trend to Ferrari dealers though if they are planning on cutting a further 1,000 cars from their production.
Regardless, whilst I like the offerings from Porsche and Ferrari, I just have no desire to own one. The purchase of anything in this sector should primarily be an emotive decision, not based on 'youtube vloggers' trends, lap times, depreciation profiles, or 70 years of racing heritage, it's not a logical rational purchase and trying to justify any individuals preference based on 'facts' would be a pointless exercise. I bought a new 570s instead of a Porsche or older 458 GTB because the McLaren was much more exciting to me. Everything else was secondary.
The Surveyor said:
I was going on the last set of figures published, in 2015 McLaren made circa 1,600 cars and Ferrari were pushing to increase to 9,000 cars per annum. It does show how the market trend is shifting in McLarens favour though, and no I don't believe Ferrari are limiting production numbers to 7,000 to preserve exclusivity (as recently announced), it's simply because others are taking a larger market share.
It certainly looks like fewer and fewer people are following your 'market' trend to Ferrari dealers though if they are planning on cutting a further 1,000 cars from their production.
Regardless, whilst I like the offerings from Porsche and Ferrari, I just have no desire to own one. The purchase of anything in this sector should primarily be an emotive decision, not based on 'youtube vloggers' trends, lap times, depreciation profiles, or 70 years of racing heritage, it's not a logical rational purchase and trying to justify any individuals preference based on 'facts' would be a pointless exercise. I bought a new 570s instead of a Porsche or older 458 GTB because the McLaren was much more exciting to me. Everything else was secondary.
Cutting production to 7,000? I'm unaware of Ferrari announcing any production cuts. Inside news and official stock market commentary show a growing production up to 9000 vehicles for 2019 year. Marchionne has said this growth can only come by expanding the product range I.e. Not simply building more of the same in order to maintain exclusivity/demand for each product. If you want to sell more in this market you have to bring new product to market.It certainly looks like fewer and fewer people are following your 'market' trend to Ferrari dealers though if they are planning on cutting a further 1,000 cars from their production.
Regardless, whilst I like the offerings from Porsche and Ferrari, I just have no desire to own one. The purchase of anything in this sector should primarily be an emotive decision, not based on 'youtube vloggers' trends, lap times, depreciation profiles, or 70 years of racing heritage, it's not a logical rational purchase and trying to justify any individuals preference based on 'facts' would be a pointless exercise. I bought a new 570s instead of a Porsche or older 458 GTB because the McLaren was much more exciting to me. Everything else was secondary.
I totally agree with you on it being an emotive purchase. It's great that we all like different things. I'm not trying to criticise McLaren with my comments, I'm simply giving my opinion on why residuals have up till now struggled to match some competitors.
The growth in the market for Supercars has been unbelievable, with Ferrari & Lambo production number increasing year-on-year plus McLaren coming to the party from a standing start only 6 years ago.
Add to that the numbers from AM plus Porsche & MB (their very top-end production numbers not their regular cars) and that's a big increase.
Anyone got reliable numbers and able to plot a graph? I think it would be *very* interesting to see.
Add to that the numbers from AM plus Porsche & MB (their very top-end production numbers not their regular cars) and that's a big increase.
Anyone got reliable numbers and able to plot a graph? I think it would be *very* interesting to see.
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