The Grand Tour 650S/720S Lap Times
Discussion
I do find it a little odd that at this level of car ownership, which let’s face it is not Concours d’elegance league, so many people seemingly have “likely residuals” or “investment opportunity” quite high on their list for decision making purposes.
Surely, irrespective of what may be written in the motoring press, by “experts” on this forum or claimed by manufacturers, you buy the car you like best and surely the most important thing is how much you enjoy driving your chosen steed and how it makes you feel when you do?
Whether you lose money, how much you lose or even make money surely that is incidental at this level of car ownership, where frankly some depreciation is more likely than not, and the true calculation is how many smiles per mile do I get for my pounds spent?
So many sweeping statements about which brand is best etc. We all have different tastes and opinions. If we didn’t we’d all drive the same thing?!
Oh, and lap times are pretty irrelevant if you are not a racing driver in a competition. How do they drive on real roads matters...and that will be a subjective opinion in itself.
Cars stimulate emotion which makes everyone’s choice valid to them. I suppose it does make entertaining reading in these forums however!
Surely, irrespective of what may be written in the motoring press, by “experts” on this forum or claimed by manufacturers, you buy the car you like best and surely the most important thing is how much you enjoy driving your chosen steed and how it makes you feel when you do?
Whether you lose money, how much you lose or even make money surely that is incidental at this level of car ownership, where frankly some depreciation is more likely than not, and the true calculation is how many smiles per mile do I get for my pounds spent?
So many sweeping statements about which brand is best etc. We all have different tastes and opinions. If we didn’t we’d all drive the same thing?!
Oh, and lap times are pretty irrelevant if you are not a racing driver in a competition. How do they drive on real roads matters...and that will be a subjective opinion in itself.
Cars stimulate emotion which makes everyone’s choice valid to them. I suppose it does make entertaining reading in these forums however!
Interesting that he felt the 650S was more edgy( " like holding a dog back from chasing a squirrel") because I also agree it feels rawer than the 720S who ("couldn't give a damn about the squirrel") which is just so damn capable and precise you lose some of the supercar experience.
I've always said the 650S is almost too good for its own good and its even more so with the 720S - there is just no compromise with these SUPERcars as they are so damn good and make you feel like a driving god.
McLaren almost need to make them worse to make them better.
My 650S spider and Huracan Performante are completely different cars and I like them for different reasons. Whenever I get asked which do I prefer its really difficult to give a definitive answer and fortunately I don't have to choose between them but there will come a stage when I will only want to run 1 supercar.
The boy racer in me will always choose the Performante, which is a pure animal and sledgehammer of a car giving you that supercar feel and experience, all noise and drama
The older mature sophisticated lol gentleman would choose the 650S which is the better, more comfortable, capable all rounder with little compromise. Scalpel like precision
PS as far as visibility goes the 650S is miles better than the Huracan. Ok the 720S is amazing with the glass pillars but TBH when I'm out in the 650S spider I rarely worry about whats behind me
I've always said the 650S is almost too good for its own good and its even more so with the 720S - there is just no compromise with these SUPERcars as they are so damn good and make you feel like a driving god.
McLaren almost need to make them worse to make them better.
My 650S spider and Huracan Performante are completely different cars and I like them for different reasons. Whenever I get asked which do I prefer its really difficult to give a definitive answer and fortunately I don't have to choose between them but there will come a stage when I will only want to run 1 supercar.
The boy racer in me will always choose the Performante, which is a pure animal and sledgehammer of a car giving you that supercar feel and experience, all noise and drama
The older mature sophisticated lol gentleman would choose the 650S which is the better, more comfortable, capable all rounder with little compromise. Scalpel like precision
PS as far as visibility goes the 650S is miles better than the Huracan. Ok the 720S is amazing with the glass pillars but TBH when I'm out in the 650S spider I rarely worry about whats behind me
RamboLambo said:
Interesting that he felt the 650S was more edgy( " like holding a dog back from chasing a squirrel") because I also agree it feels rawer than the 720S who ("couldn't give a damn about the squirrel") which is just so damn capable and precise you lose some of the supercar experience.
I've always said the 650S is almost too good for its own good and its even more so with the 720S - there is just no compromise with these SUPERcars as they are so damn good and make you feel like a driving god.
McLaren almost need to make them worse to make them better.
My 650S spider and Huracan Performante are completely different cars and I like them for different reasons. Whenever I get asked which do I prefer its really difficult to give a definitive answer and fortunately I don't have to choose between them but there will come a stage when I will only want to run 1 supercar.
The boy racer in me will always choose the Performante, which is a pure animal and sledgehammer of a car giving you that supercar feel and experience, all noise and drama
The older mature sophisticated lol gentleman would choose the 650S which is the better, more comfortable, capable all rounder with little compromise. Scalpel like precision
PS as far as visibility goes the 650S is miles better than the Huracan. Ok the 720S is amazing with the glass pillars but TBH when I'm out in the 650S spider I rarely worry about whats behind me
Agree, the 720S is almost too good for its own good. I've always said the 650S is almost too good for its own good and its even more so with the 720S - there is just no compromise with these SUPERcars as they are so damn good and make you feel like a driving god.
McLaren almost need to make them worse to make them better.
My 650S spider and Huracan Performante are completely different cars and I like them for different reasons. Whenever I get asked which do I prefer its really difficult to give a definitive answer and fortunately I don't have to choose between them but there will come a stage when I will only want to run 1 supercar.
The boy racer in me will always choose the Performante, which is a pure animal and sledgehammer of a car giving you that supercar feel and experience, all noise and drama
The older mature sophisticated lol gentleman would choose the 650S which is the better, more comfortable, capable all rounder with little compromise. Scalpel like precision
PS as far as visibility goes the 650S is miles better than the Huracan. Ok the 720S is amazing with the glass pillars but TBH when I'm out in the 650S spider I rarely worry about whats behind me
On the visibility, I personally don't major issues in the 650S but that probably from adapting to the car after multiple years.
I drove the GT3 RS yesterday afternoon, it definitely falls into the sledgehammer category. Lots of noise and drama but not nearly as quick as the 720S.
BoxerF50 said:
Agree, the 720S is almost too good for its own good.
On the visibility, I personally don't major issues in the 650S but that probably from adapting to the car after multiple years.
I drove the GT3 RS yesterday afternoon, it definitely falls into the sledgehammer category. Lots of noise and drama but not nearly as quick as the 720S.
Yeah agree and its not all about outright speed and lap times etc... All of these cars are way too fast for the public roads so its how it makes you feel at safe/legal speeds and that is where something like the Huracan performante comes into its own because it looks awesome and sounds even better even at 30 mph. In the McLarens you have to be pushing on to fully enjoy them as at normal speeds they are not so "Super".On the visibility, I personally don't major issues in the 650S but that probably from adapting to the car after multiple years.
I drove the GT3 RS yesterday afternoon, it definitely falls into the sledgehammer category. Lots of noise and drama but not nearly as quick as the 720S.
I even found the 675LT fairly tame TBH and probably the half way house between 650S and Performante.
RamboLambo said:
Interesting that he felt the 650S was more edgy( " like holding a dog back from chasing a squirrel") because I also agree it feels rawer than the 720S who ("couldn't give a damn about the squirrel") which is just so damn capable and precise you lose some of the supercar experience.
I disagree. To me the 720S feels way edgier than the 650S ever did. It's faster, lighter and more nimble. It reacts to throttle and steering inputs much more aggressively. It has a way more aggressive transmission. It delivers more steering feel and more road feel than the 650S ever did and the suspension is way tighter and delivers much more connection to the road surface. The driver feels way more connected to the road in the 720S. Even the seats are sportier and deliver more feel to your behind than the 650S seats did (standard seats, not racing buckets). You can toss it around way more too and it's much easier to get the end to step out. Even on simple curving roads going legal speed limits the 720S is just some much more engaging to drive than the 650S. It makes the 650S feel quite cushy. Going from he 650S to the 675LT was a huge upgrade for me because the suspension, and modified steering in the 675 took away the floaty nature of the 650S and added way more road and steering feel. Everything about the 720S gets your heart pumping faster than the 650S ever did. I can't imagine anyone could drive both cars and feel any differently.
The idea that you "lose some of the supercar experience" in the 720S feels completely wrong to me - it's exact opposite. In my opinion you GAIN a hell of a lot more of it in the 720S over the 650S. I've owned two 12Cs, a 650S, and three 675LT variant (coupe, spider, HS).
I could see how someone would say the MSO HS and 675LT - assuming the standard racing buckets in those compared to standard normal seats in the 720S - feel edgier than the 720S but no way the 650S feels edgier.
BTW, the 570S also feels edgier than the 650S. In fact every car they've made since the 650S was edgier than the 650S and thank goodness for that!
Edited by MarkNC on Friday 8th June 05:12
I think the 650S is so well engineered it feels rock solid and is definitely the best put together car McLaren has made.
My 570S did not feel the same or have the same build quality and I guess you could say that that makes it more edgy.
For me the 720S is too good and too fast to feel vaguely edgy on a public road as is the 650S TBH. The last thing any of these cars need, in reality, is more performance.
No question the 720S is a step up again but whether its a step in the right direction for overall supercar experience I'm not so sure and its certainly no Lamborghini Huracan Performante when it comes to the excitement stakes.
For me the 675LT has been the most exciting McLaren thus far but even that falls a little short of what I'm looking for in a supercar experience, sound being a major part of that.
Lets hope the 600LT nails that one and feels more engaging on the road without going warp speed
My 570S did not feel the same or have the same build quality and I guess you could say that that makes it more edgy.
For me the 720S is too good and too fast to feel vaguely edgy on a public road as is the 650S TBH. The last thing any of these cars need, in reality, is more performance.
No question the 720S is a step up again but whether its a step in the right direction for overall supercar experience I'm not so sure and its certainly no Lamborghini Huracan Performante when it comes to the excitement stakes.
For me the 675LT has been the most exciting McLaren thus far but even that falls a little short of what I'm looking for in a supercar experience, sound being a major part of that.
Lets hope the 600LT nails that one and feels more engaging on the road without going warp speed
Edited by RamboLambo on Thursday 7th June 20:40
Edited by RamboLambo on Friday 8th June 09:51
MarkNC said:
I disagree. To me the 720S feels way edgier than the 650S ever did. It's faster, lighter and more nimble. It reacts to throttle and steering inputs much more aggressively. It has a way more aggressive transmission. It delivers more steering feel and more road feel than the 650S ever did and the suspension is way tighter and delivers much more connection to the road surface. The driver feels way more connected to the road in the 720S. Even the seats are sportier and deliver more feel to your behind than the 650S seats did (standard seats, not racing buckets). You can toss it around way more too and it's much easier to get the end to step out. Even on simple curving roads going legal speed limits the 720S is just some much more engaging to drive than the 650S. It makes the 650S feel way quite cushy. Going from he 650S to the 675LT was a huge upgrade for me because the suspension, and modified steering in the 675 took away the floaty nature of the 650S and added way more road and steering feel.
Everything about the 720S gets your heart pumping faster than the 650S ever did. I can't imagine anyone could drive both cars and feel any differently.
Ever consider driving is a subjective thing? You like the 720 more in any and every way as the latest offering from Mclaren - fine. Quite a few others (as I do) think it's lacking something in the 'sports car feel' for lack of a better description compared to any of the P11s despite it's huge capabilities and the fact it's massively quicker than even the 675.Everything about the 720S gets your heart pumping faster than the 650S ever did. I can't imagine anyone could drive both cars and feel any differently.
isaldiri said:
Ever consider driving is a subjective thing? You like the 720 more in any and every way as the latest offering from Mclaren - fine. Quite a few others (as I do) think it's lacking something in the 'sports car feel' for lack of a better description compared to any of the P11s despite it's huge capabilities and the fact it's massively quicker than even the 675.
Yes absolutely I did consider that it can be subjective, i.e. "based on or influenced by personal feelings, tastes, or opinions." Rambolambo expressed his opinion and I expressed my opposite opinion. I don't see why that should be a problem for anyone. We're just two guys with different opinions. I've driven a LOT of miles in P11 and 720S. I have well over 20,000 road miles on P11 variants (9,400 in 650S alone) with lots of track days and I've now also driven over 3,000 miles on my 720S including a few track days.
So what makes a car feel edgier than another car? Quicker responses to driver inputs, more feel of the road in seat & hands, firmer suspension, less wallow, less float, less weight, more noise, more oomph, sharper braking, better brake feel, and more vibration. Well I think we all agree the 675LT did all of these things to the 650S, right? I think they're all true of the 720S over the 650S as well. And while much of this comes down to feel, as you say, many of these qualities are actually measurable. We know the 720S has a faster steering rack than the 650S. We know it has a firmer suspension. We know it has more oomph. We know it weighs less. We know it has less float in it's ride and we know it makes quicker, and more aggressive, response to driver inputs - especially throttle but also brakes.
I loved my 650S, and I'm not one of those guys that says the new thing always has to be better. I just feel the new thing, in this case, is the edgier, sportier car. The one bell I could never unring with the 12C/650S was how "floaty" the suspension was. The 12C/650S were so bouncy they'd occasionally scrape coming off the tiny little lip of my driveway. Although there's way less float in the 675LT/MSO HS they would occasionally do it but they also have much lower front lips. The P1, 720S and 570S never do it.
I agree with Rambolambo that the P11 feels rock solid but it's a solid rock bouncing up and down over undulations in the road surface. They fixed that with 675LT, fixed it with the 570S and fixed it even better with the 720S.
Edited by MarkNC on Friday 8th June 05:25
Edited by MarkNC on Friday 8th June 15:56
MarkNC said:
I disagree. To me the 720S feels way edgier than the 650S ever did. It's faster, lighter and more nimble. It reacts to throttle and steering inputs much more aggressively. It has a way more aggressive transmission. It delivers more steering feel and more road feel than the 650S ever did and the suspension is way tighter and delivers much more connection to the road surface. The driver feels way more connected to the road in the 720S. Even the seats are sportier and deliver more feel to your behind than the 650S seats did (standard seats, not racing buckets). You can toss it around way more too and it's much easier to get the end to step out. Even on simple curving roads going legal speed limits the 720S is just some much more engaging to drive than the 650S. It makes the 650S feel quite cushy. Going from he 650S to the 675LT was a huge upgrade for me because the suspension, and modified steering in the 675 took away the floaty nature of the 650S and added way more road and steering feel.
Everything about the 720S gets your heart pumping faster than the 650S ever did. I can't imagine anyone could drive both cars and feel any differently.
The idea that you "lose some of the supercar experience" in the 720S feels completely wrong to me - it's exact opposite. In my opinion you GAIN a hell of a lot more of it in the 720S over the 650S. I've owned two 12Cs, a 650S, and three 675LT variant (coupe, spider, HS).
I could see how someone would say the MSO HS and 675LT - assuming the standard racing buckets in those compared to standard normal seats in the 720S - feel edgier than the 720S but no way the 650S feels edgier.
BTW, the 570S also feels edgier than the 650S. In fact every car they've made since the 650S was edgier than the 650S and thank goodness for that!
I completely agree. The 650s for me feels more tame then the 570s and definitely the 720. The 720s you have to be very careful in, the back end will come out very very easily. For me it feels more connected then the 650 - which IMO felt a little dead. You have to treat the 720 with respect or it will bite you IME.Everything about the 720S gets your heart pumping faster than the 650S ever did. I can't imagine anyone could drive both cars and feel any differently.
The idea that you "lose some of the supercar experience" in the 720S feels completely wrong to me - it's exact opposite. In my opinion you GAIN a hell of a lot more of it in the 720S over the 650S. I've owned two 12Cs, a 650S, and three 675LT variant (coupe, spider, HS).
I could see how someone would say the MSO HS and 675LT - assuming the standard racing buckets in those compared to standard normal seats in the 720S - feel edgier than the 720S but no way the 650S feels edgier.
BTW, the 570S also feels edgier than the 650S. In fact every car they've made since the 650S was edgier than the 650S and thank goodness for that!
Edited by MarkNC on Friday 8th June 05:12
I can only think I've not driven the 720S hard enough to experience this edginess which is possibly true as the few times I've driven one it was demo's on the public for an hour or so and I guess being someone elses property I've treated it with too much respect.
Don't get me wrong its ballistically fast, I've experienced that and its definitely well planted but I'm not getting any rear end behaviour or edgy feeling on a public road because its too capable IMHO.
Maybe I'm not the next Stig afterall and I need a car with less speed and more feel though I seem to get that drama and excitement with the PERFORMANTE and that's not exactly slow. This is where the Lambo scores heavily for me and where McLaren need to focus their attention more.
Ultimate speed and lap times is meaningless to me hence why people are still getting excitement from elises and Mx5's etc
McLaren tried to go that way a bit more with the 570S so hopefully the 600LT will be the answer for me as I do genuinely love the McLaren brand jus not the 720S so much
Don't get me wrong its ballistically fast, I've experienced that and its definitely well planted but I'm not getting any rear end behaviour or edgy feeling on a public road because its too capable IMHO.
Maybe I'm not the next Stig afterall and I need a car with less speed and more feel though I seem to get that drama and excitement with the PERFORMANTE and that's not exactly slow. This is where the Lambo scores heavily for me and where McLaren need to focus their attention more.
Ultimate speed and lap times is meaningless to me hence why people are still getting excitement from elises and Mx5's etc
McLaren tried to go that way a bit more with the 570S so hopefully the 600LT will be the answer for me as I do genuinely love the McLaren brand jus not the 720S so much
Agree completely that the 720S is edgier than its predecessors, and that it WILL bite. The back came out on a test drive, at 70mph whilst I was overtaking. Scary! So yes, treat this car with respect or it WILL bite.
I also drove the Huracan Performante. I LOVED its engine and soundtrack, but hated the lack of visibility so much I didn't want to buy one. Lack of vision made it too stressful to drive in town. The much vaunted ALA felt imperceptible on road.
The only achilles heel I found on the 720S was its lack of soundtrack.
I also drove the Huracan Performante. I LOVED its engine and soundtrack, but hated the lack of visibility so much I didn't want to buy one. Lack of vision made it too stressful to drive in town. The much vaunted ALA felt imperceptible on road.
The only achilles heel I found on the 720S was its lack of soundtrack.
For me the soundtrack is a massive part of the supercar experience and I just wish McLarens sounded better. Well not just McLaren its all turbocharged cars that just don't sound anywhere near as good as a big Naturally aspirated engine.
McLarens visibility is fantastic but for me the sound is more important hence why I chose to add a Huracan Performante to my 650S spider than a 720S.
If I replace the 650S it will be for the sport series LT
McLarens visibility is fantastic but for me the sound is more important hence why I chose to add a Huracan Performante to my 650S spider than a 720S.
If I replace the 650S it will be for the sport series LT
All Huracan’s suffer from very compromised cabins and driving positions. I am not unusually tall at 6ft 2in. In a Huracan my head is in constant contact with the roof, and after less than an hour the offset pedals and the worst seats in the supercar world, make the journey so uncomfortable that I just can’t wait to get out. The spider version is a joke as I can’t physically sit in one with the roof down.
Yes the engine is a jewel and long may it continue in production but one aspect of a car should not define the whole car. Personally I feel the Performante just looks too derivative for my liking. Its what you would have drawn as a kid if you were asked to draw a supercar.
What I like about McLaren at the moment is its dare to be different design policy underpinned by dynamics that put the others in the shade. I think the future is very bright in Woking at the moment
Yes the engine is a jewel and long may it continue in production but one aspect of a car should not define the whole car. Personally I feel the Performante just looks too derivative for my liking. Its what you would have drawn as a kid if you were asked to draw a supercar.
What I like about McLaren at the moment is its dare to be different design policy underpinned by dynamics that put the others in the shade. I think the future is very bright in Woking at the moment
Streetrod said:
What I like about McLaren at the moment is its dare to be different design policy underpinned by dynamics that put the others in the shade. I think the future is very bright in Woking at the moment
+1And I'd add that I also give huge points to McLaren for using a full carbon tub (720S). Lambo use partial (except Aventadore) and Ferrari are stuck in the dark ages. Even a lowly i3 has a full carbon tub FFS...Ferrari need to wake up and smell the coffee
LotusJas said:
+1
And I'd add that I also give huge points to McLaren for using a full carbon tub (720S). Lambo use partial (except Aventadore) and Ferrari are stuck in the dark ages. Even a lowly i3 has a full carbon tub FFS...Ferrari need to wake up and smell the coffee
Carbon Tub is where its at for convertibles hence why the 488 Spider shakes, rattles and rolls. More power and torque is no good if the chassis can't handle it.And I'd add that I also give huge points to McLaren for using a full carbon tub (720S). Lambo use partial (except Aventadore) and Ferrari are stuck in the dark ages. Even a lowly i3 has a full carbon tub FFS...Ferrari need to wake up and smell the coffee
RamboLambo said:
Carbon Tub is where its at for convertibles hence why the 488 Spider shakes, rattles and rolls. More power and torque is no good if the chassis can't handle it.
Not just convertibles though. A coupe benefits just as much - CF tub adds lightness, stiffness and strength.Gassing Station | McLaren | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff