Harris doesn’t rate senna
Discussion
thegreenhell said:
It wasn't just a comparison that Harris thought up from nowhere, though. McLaren themselves said it would be as fast as a GT3 car, or something along those lines. It's a bit like when Ron said the P1 would be the fastest road car around any track, bar none, and was promptly proven slower than the 918 around most tracks.
I'm not saying that you are wrong, but I am waiting to see documentation of McLaren themselves stating that the Senna road car would be faster around a circuit than any car (barring Formula One) McLaren had ever made. In his video with the Senna road car and 650S GT3, Chris says, "Some people say it's as fast as a GT3 car...". "Some people" could be anybody. With the GT3 starting out with its enormous advantage of being on slicks, and furthermore having been set up for the track rather than having the compromised settings of a road car that would be accessible for any Joe or Jane Blow to drive on the public roads, it was always very unlikely that the Senna would be quicker on a racing track than a proper racing car would be.
Ron's foolish boast about the P1 was a different thing (although I don't believe it was slower than the 918 around most tracks, but rather that it was slower around some, faster around others, and in every three-way test the LaF was slowest of all.
)WCZ said:
Firstly the GT3 650s was produced in low quantities (~16) so couldn't easily be bought and it's still £450,000 so not exactly cheap.
You can pick up a 650GT3 for under £200khttps://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/9450...
BoxerF50 said:
I’d rather do that and have 500-600k in the bank personally ghost83 said:
I’d rather do that and have 500-600k in the bank personally
Well yes but then you might not necessarily want to spend some of that extra 500-600k by hiring a team of mechanics to transport and run the car every single trackday. The Senna, despite being rather noisy the road works as an arrive, drive and drive back home at frankly silly laptimes for a road car even if it's not going to match a race car for directness/response/laptimes.isaldiri said:
ghost83 said:
I’d rather do that and have 500-600k in the bank personally
Well yes but then you might not necessarily want to spend some of that extra 500-600k by hiring a team of mechanics to transport and run the car every single trackday. The Senna, despite being rather noisy the road works as an arrive, drive and drive back home at frankly silly laptimes for a road car even if it's not going to match a race car for directness/response/laptimes.Although rather impressed with the Radical SR3 RSX lapping 2:03 for a 60K track toy. I've gone this route and running it myself. Seems a very cost effective way of going really fast on track. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RIA7Mn3zJY
ghost83 said:
BoxerF50 said:
I’d rather do that and have 500-600k in the bank personally New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
WCZ said:
"Delivered new by McLaren GT in December 2016.
New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Yes but for all you know a Senna might need 2 engines and gearboxes in an 18 month race environment.New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Surely no one would take a showroom delivered Senna as a serious contender to a race prepped stripped out 650 GT3 car on slicks - the geometry just isn't there for one. I thought Harris gave the Senna a very fair assessment as a stonking fast road car that can give a good account of itself on the track, but Cmon horses for courses!!
gaxor said:
WCZ said:
"Delivered new by McLaren GT in December 2016.
New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Yes but for all you know a Senna might need 2 engines and gearboxes in an 18 month race environment.New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Surely no one would take a showroom delivered Senna as a serious contender to a race prepped stripped out 650 GT3 car on slicks - the geometry just isn't there for one. I thought Harris gave the Senna a very fair assessment as a stonking fast road car that can give a good account of itself on the track, but Cmon horses for courses!!
One appreciates that an individual journalist who every week has to come up with a new way to grab viewers' attention will feel pressed to dramatise things, but in this case Chris manifested a smug cynicism that did not add to the quality of his assessment.
gaxor said:
Surely no one would take a showroom delivered Senna as a serious contender to a race prepped stripped out 650 GT3 car on slicks - the geometry just isn't there for one.
What do you mean by 'the geometry just isn't there for one' ?The Senna is able to run more downforce than a GT3 car and is able to feature adjustable ride height, so in race mode the 'geometry' should be every bit as good as the GT3. Not being able to run on slicks also shouldn't be a huge disadvantage, a Trofeo R isn't that far off a slick.
Let's cut to the chase of why it really isn't anywhere near as fast as the GT3 car - skinny 245 width front tyres. This is for two reasons:
1) Much wider front tyres increase tramlining on the road
2) (The real reason) With skinny 245 front tyres the Senna will wash out into easy to control understeer for your average multi-millionaire at sane speeds. Put a 300mm+ Trofeo R on the front and you change the front-rear balance, resulting in a much higher chance of high speed oversteer.
Olivera said:
What do you mean by 'the geometry just isn't there for one' ?
The Senna is able to run more downforce than a GT3 car and is able to feature adjustable ride height, so in race mode the 'geometry' should be every bit as good as the GT3. Not being able to run on slicks also shouldn't be a huge disadvantage, a Trofeo R isn't that far off a slick.
Let's cut to the chase of why it really isn't anywhere near as fast as the GT3 car - skinny 245 width front tyres. This is for two reasons:
1) Much wider front tyres increase tramlining on the road
2) (The real reason) With skinny 245 front tyres the Senna will wash out into easy to control understeer for your average multi-millionaire at sane speeds. Put a 300mm+ Trofeo R on the front and you change the front-rear balance, resulting in a much higher chance of high speed oversteer.
Do you seriously think a 300 section front tyre is all that's required to gain 7 seconds a lap......? And by all accounts the Senna seems to understeer primarily on high speed corners. That's aero related not tyre.The Senna is able to run more downforce than a GT3 car and is able to feature adjustable ride height, so in race mode the 'geometry' should be every bit as good as the GT3. Not being able to run on slicks also shouldn't be a huge disadvantage, a Trofeo R isn't that far off a slick.
Let's cut to the chase of why it really isn't anywhere near as fast as the GT3 car - skinny 245 width front tyres. This is for two reasons:
1) Much wider front tyres increase tramlining on the road
2) (The real reason) With skinny 245 front tyres the Senna will wash out into easy to control understeer for your average multi-millionaire at sane speeds. Put a 300mm+ Trofeo R on the front and you change the front-rear balance, resulting in a much higher chance of high speed oversteer.
And a trofeo while very quick for a tyre just isn't close to a slick in terms of laptime.
isaldiri said:
Do you seriously think a 300 section front tyre is all that's required to gain 7 seconds a lap......? And by all accounts the Senna seems to understeer primarily on high speed corners. That's aero related not tyre.
I'm saying it's likely the biggest factor accounting for that gap, there may be others. 245 width is a really skinny front tyre for such a car. Which is exactly what Harris reported.Regarding downforce, a figure of 800kg for the Senna is plastered all over their website. A few quotes from their website:
"We have created a vehicle that generates race car-beating levels of downforce". "Roll stiffness that is comparable to a GT3-specification race car"
Olivera said:
I'm saying it's likely the biggest factor accounting for that gap, there may be others. 245 width is a really skinny front tyre for such a car. Which is exactly what Harris reported.
Regarding downforce, a figure of 800kg for the Senna is plastered all over their website. A few quotes from their website:
"We have created a vehicle that generates race car-beating levels of downforce". "Roll stiffness that is comparable to a GT3-specification race car"
Downforce multiplies the amount of tyre grip depending on vehicle weight. The Senna might have more downforce than a GT3 car but it's heavier and doesn't have slick tyres. More downforce alone isn't going to make it faster. Regarding downforce, a figure of 800kg for the Senna is plastered all over their website. A few quotes from their website:
"We have created a vehicle that generates race car-beating levels of downforce". "Roll stiffness that is comparable to a GT3-specification race car"
And a slick tyre (comparable size) would probably gain at least 4 seconds alone over a trofeo. There is imo no way tacking on a 300 section front trofeo would gain the Senna anything enough to bring that gap down as you are suggesting.
WCZ said:
"Delivered new by McLaren GT in December 2016.
New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Would you though, imagine how much depreciation you would have with aload of track mileage on a Senna! And if the gt3 is 7 secs per lap quicker that is a mahoosive difference! On a circuit that takes 2 mins it would only take 15-16 laps before you’re lapping the Senna! New engine installed in May 2018. Less than 500km.
New Gearbox installed in January 2018 and has less than 1000km mileage. "
depreciated £220k and has had new engine and gearbox already! + other running costs sounds like a ball ache to me. you'd have saved money buying a Senna!
Also I’m guessing even with more mileage the gt3 will hold its value over time than what a Senna will if you keep banging mileage on it, and like I say a 200k gt3 car would personally appeal to me more than a 700-800k Senna
footsoldier said:
Customers (one anyway..) lapping Spa within c5 secs of GT3 pole time, so Harris clearly not getting best out of Senna. It’s another level compared to any other road car.
It definitely is on another level compared to any other road car until the Merc/Valkyrie come out, and even the Harris lap proves that....but I'd see a video/data trace of that claimed customer lap. I'm now no longer sure the McLaren in car telemetry system is entirely reliable tbh. Although that said, an established pro driver has done and posted a sub 2:25 lap verified on a vbox and he was driving a customer car so presumably could go faster if he was willing to take more risk.
Olivera said:
What do you mean by 'the geometry just isn't there for one' ?
The Senna is able to run more downforce than a GT3 car and is able to feature adjustable ride height, so in race mode the 'geometry' should be every bit as good as the GT3. Not being able to run on slicks also shouldn't be a huge disadvantage, a Trofeo R isn't that far off a slick.
Let's cut to the chase of why it really isn't anywhere near as fast as the GT3 car - skinny 245 width front tyres. This is for two reasons:
1) Much wider front tyres increase tramlining on the road
2) (The real reason) With skinny 245 front tyres the Senna will wash out into easy to control understeer for your average multi-millionaire at sane speeds. Put a 300mm+ Trofeo R on the front and you change the front-rear balance, resulting in a much higher chance of high speed oversteer.
What I mean by geometry has nothing to do with downforce or ride height. It has everything to do with setting up camber and toe-in/toe-out for the track. So unless the "race" (track) mode has adjustable camber.... I agree the 245's on the front don't help either, for the reasons you give. I would say a Trofeo is a loooong way off being a slick. Essentially though I think we are saying the same thing, a road going Senna is not a race car.The Senna is able to run more downforce than a GT3 car and is able to feature adjustable ride height, so in race mode the 'geometry' should be every bit as good as the GT3. Not being able to run on slicks also shouldn't be a huge disadvantage, a Trofeo R isn't that far off a slick.
Let's cut to the chase of why it really isn't anywhere near as fast as the GT3 car - skinny 245 width front tyres. This is for two reasons:
1) Much wider front tyres increase tramlining on the road
2) (The real reason) With skinny 245 front tyres the Senna will wash out into easy to control understeer for your average multi-millionaire at sane speeds. Put a 300mm+ Trofeo R on the front and you change the front-rear balance, resulting in a much higher chance of high speed oversteer.
ghost83 said:
Also I’m guessing even with more mileage the gt3 will hold its value over time than what a Senna will if you keep banging mileage on it, and like I say a 200k gt3 car would personally appeal to me more than a 700-800k Senna
"the engine is rated for 10,000 Km and the transaxle for 8,000 kms before a teardown inspection"with high mileage comes high expenses with the 650s gt3 though so that'd make up some of the difference
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