Lotus and McLaren ,- I didnt expect that!
Discussion
12pack said:
Sure weight makes a difference while cornering and braking, and that's why the Macs have more rubber and ceramic to help compensate.
But tracks have straights too, and no matter how much marginally more speed you can carry into the corner in the smaller, ligher car, you'll still get blown off to a much larger extent post-apex.
And on the open road, its just no comparison.
The right driver can make all the difference. Put someone who is decent at club racing (top 10 from LOT or caterham race series) in a lotus around a reasonably twisty circuit (or even spa) in a 400bhp exige vs a average diddy in a McLaren, I am sure there wouldn’t be much difference, especially in the wet(which it usually is!)But tracks have straights too, and no matter how much marginally more speed you can carry into the corner in the smaller, ligher car, you'll still get blown off to a much larger extent post-apex.
And on the open road, its just no comparison.
justin220 said:
Where as the Exige V6 is slower than a Golf GTI round the nurburgring.
For all the compromises a Lotus has, they should be leagues ahead.
I'm a huge Lotus fan BTW.
Thats a nonsense comparison between a factory sponsored publicity drive in a stripped out GTI with a good driver at the wheel and a private trundle round in the Lotus. And its wrong - the GTI claim being 7:49.2 whereas there is a Lotus Exige Cup 380 at 7:48For all the compromises a Lotus has, they should be leagues ahead.
I'm a huge Lotus fan BTW.
But all this is irrelevant anyway, unless you are a spotty teenager arguing with his mates. You dont spend your driving life on a race track. For most of us the best we get is a clear stretch of B road with decent visibility and some nice bends. We're not timed and ehat matters is the driving fun. Hot hatches with 4 inch exhausts are simply chavvy.
Bikeracer1098 said:
Rocketreid said:
Having owned a number of Exiges and now in a Cup 430 i must admit to hankering after a Big Mac 650s ( see what I did )
As a regular track user you get the chance to exploit the cars full potential . An Exige 430 and for that matter an Evora 430 lose nothing to 570s on track except a little on fast straights such as at the Silverstone GP circuit .
A 650s or even a 570s ( 675 are a bit rich ) can be had a few years old for not hugely more money than a Lotus but the upkeep of a Mac I imagine is a completely different scenario .
Lotus’ s can be driven hard with very little expensive maintenance unlike Mac’s I guess . As you see so many low mileage Macs for sale then it would appear many people are owning but not necessarily driving them . These sorts of cars are honed and designed to go on track so a pity more people don’t try it!
The price tag of around £110k for a Exige 430 Cup is an absolute joke.As a regular track user you get the chance to exploit the cars full potential . An Exige 430 and for that matter an Evora 430 lose nothing to 570s on track except a little on fast straights such as at the Silverstone GP circuit .
A 650s or even a 570s ( 675 are a bit rich ) can be had a few years old for not hugely more money than a Lotus but the upkeep of a Mac I imagine is a completely different scenario .
Lotus’ s can be driven hard with very little expensive maintenance unlike Mac’s I guess . As you see so many low mileage Macs for sale then it would appear many people are owning but not necessarily driving them . These sorts of cars are honed and designed to go on track so a pity more people don’t try it!
Not a great Road Car and with regards to a track Car, far superior cars available.
It just doesn’t serve a purpose at that price point, unless you are a hardcore Lotus fan.
If you feel the need for some serious fun on track start riding Superbikes on track, make driving cars on track rather boring.
Edited by Bikeracer1098 on Monday 11th February 00:02
I am not a 'hardcore' Lotus fan but I am a 350 sport owner and former 12C owner and have spent 9 months test driving and deciding what to replace my 12C with, including 650S / 675LT / 991.2 GT3 manual. None really did it for me and I eventually discounted all auto gearboxes (personal choice).
I pick up my 430 cup this week. I am more excited than any other car I have ever owned (and I have owned a lot). These cars are very, very special. While I appreciate a thrill can be had on a bike I have had several Ducati's and after a decade of riding decided it's just not for me anymore. The car 'v' bike thing doesn't work they are totally different, like asking a vegetarian to eat meat.
I'm not bothered about lap times, could not care one jot. If anyone goes faster It doesn't bother me, driver skill is the most important factor, almost anyone can plant their foot in a McLaren on the straight and be the fastest. All that matters to me is the feeling you get when you drive a car on or off a track, the engagement, the interaction and the fun. The Exige is the most fun and engaging car I have driven at any price point and I have put my money where my mouth is.
johnwilliams77 said:
justin220 said:
Where as the Exige V6 is slower than a Golf GTI round the nurburgring.
For all the compromises a Lotus has, they should be leagues ahead.
I'm a huge Lotus fan BTW.
They are on every trackday I’ve been on, including all over England. As the other poster says above, your logic is that a GT3 is slow too For all the compromises a Lotus has, they should be leagues ahead.
I'm a huge Lotus fan BTW.
Bispal said:
I don't think £110k is a joke? Name another manual car which you can drive in relative comfort on road that does 0-60 in around 3 seconds and has F1 & Motorsport heritage. It is Lotus's pinnacle car, their equiv to a McLaren's LT and Porsche's RS cars. It's an amazing road car, more complaint & comfortable than a 350 / V6, the 3 way nitron's are an absolute revelation.
I am not a 'hardcore' Lotus fan but I am a 350 sport owner and former 12C owner and have spent 9 months test driving and deciding what to replace my 12C with, including 650S / 675LT / 991.2 GT3 manual. None really did it for me and I eventually discounted all auto gearboxes (personal choice).
I pick up my 430 cup this week. I am more excited than any other car I have ever owned (and I have owned a lot). These cars are very, very special. While I appreciate a thrill can be had on a bike I have had several Ducati's and after a decade of riding decided it's just not for me anymore. The car 'v' bike thing doesn't work they are totally different, like asking a vegetarian to eat meat.
I'm not bothered about lap times, could not care one jot. If anyone goes faster It doesn't bother me, driver skill is the most important factor, almost anyone can plant their foot in a McLaren on the straight and be the fastest. All that matters to me is the feeling you get when you drive a car on or off a track, the engagement, the interaction and the fun. The Exige is the most fun and engaging car I have driven at any price point and I have put my money where my mouth is.
It does appear a number of posts here are from people who presumably have never driven a Cup 430 and want to defend the Macs because they just assume that with over 550 bhp they must be quicker .I am not a 'hardcore' Lotus fan but I am a 350 sport owner and former 12C owner and have spent 9 months test driving and deciding what to replace my 12C with, including 650S / 675LT / 991.2 GT3 manual. None really did it for me and I eventually discounted all auto gearboxes (personal choice).
I pick up my 430 cup this week. I am more excited than any other car I have ever owned (and I have owned a lot). These cars are very, very special. While I appreciate a thrill can be had on a bike I have had several Ducati's and after a decade of riding decided it's just not for me anymore. The car 'v' bike thing doesn't work they are totally different, like asking a vegetarian to eat meat.
I'm not bothered about lap times, could not care one jot. If anyone goes faster It doesn't bother me, driver skill is the most important factor, almost anyone can plant their foot in a McLaren on the straight and be the fastest. All that matters to me is the feeling you get when you drive a car on or off a track, the engagement, the interaction and the fun. The Exige is the most fun and engaging car I have driven at any price point and I have put my money where my mouth is.
It’s absolute rubbish to assume this on track , with the exception of probably Silverstone .
Bispal is right the Lotus is a totally involving Car and in my view at the limit far easier to control then a normal Mac!!!
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
Rocketreid said:
It does appear a number of posts here are from people who presumably have never driven a Cup 430 and want to defend the Macs because they just assume that with over 550 bhp they must be quicker .
It’s absolute rubbish to assume this on track , with the exception of probably Silverstone .
Bispal is right the Lotus is a totally involving Car and in my view at the limit far easier to control then a normal Mac!!!
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
No, but a golf gti is quicker It’s absolute rubbish to assume this on track , with the exception of probably Silverstone .
Bispal is right the Lotus is a totally involving Car and in my view at the limit far easier to control then a normal Mac!!!
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
I've got a 360 Cup. It's on a par with a GT4 on track, can't stay with a 991 GT3 or RS. Maybe the 430 can but at £110k? Ouch. That's 45k more than my 360 cost, 70% more expensive. Whilst I'd love a 430 to replace the 360 I'm not paying that for an Exige.
Bought a 991.2 GT3 Clubsport Manual instead. Similar DNA to the Lotus but faster. And, it has to be said, a whole lot more money. Makes me think it could be a mistake and I should stick with the 360. Got someone on for the Lotus, if the deal falls through then I'm tempted to keep it and sell the Porsche.
Says a lot for how good the Lotus is that it gives nothing to the GT3 in driving enjoyment, it's just slower. And the roof comes off the Exige which adds to the fun no end.
Bought a 991.2 GT3 Clubsport Manual instead. Similar DNA to the Lotus but faster. And, it has to be said, a whole lot more money. Makes me think it could be a mistake and I should stick with the 360. Got someone on for the Lotus, if the deal falls through then I'm tempted to keep it and sell the Porsche.
Says a lot for how good the Lotus is that it gives nothing to the GT3 in driving enjoyment, it's just slower. And the roof comes off the Exige which adds to the fun no end.
johnwilliams77 said:
The right driver can make all the difference. Put someone who is decent at club racing (top 10 from LOT or caterham race series) in a lotus around a reasonably twisty circuit (or even spa) in a 400bhp exige vs a average diddy in a McLaren, I am sure there wouldn’t be much difference, especially in the wet(which it usually is!)
Fully agree - but here we are comparing the capabilities of road cars.This made me think of this clip I remember seeing where a professional driver in an Atom 3.5R clearly has it over an amateur (not me BTW) in a 650s at a limited speed event. The Mac is clearly braking far too early, going around gingerly and keeps swinging wide - but then pulls far away on the straights. Would be interesting the other way around.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KK-vhyjB_-M
Edited by 12pack on Monday 11th February 10:24
Rocketreid said:
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
Actually I don't necessarily think the Mclaren has the comfort advantage on the road if the Lotus is on Ohlins....I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
But despite some amusing claims about how much and why the Mclaren is always going to be faster, on a real world trackday with traffic, having a heap of power and straight line performance is going to help you a lot just due to having to pass traffic and typically you're not going to be allowed to overtake on brakes or around a corner. In any case, I could care less if a car is faster than another on track but rather how fun a actually is to drive on track. The lotus is an awfully well tuned car handling wise and for me, you simply cannot beat the experience of cornering in a lighter car compared to just planting your foot down on a straight...
Rocketreid said:
It does appear a number of posts here are from people who presumably have never driven a Cup 430 and want to defend the Macs because they just assume that with over 550 bhp they must be quicker .
It’s absolute rubbish to assume this on track , with the exception of probably Silverstone .
Bispal is right the Lotus is a totally involving Car and in my view at the limit far easier to control then a normal Mac!!!
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
The 570S was (slightly) quicker round Anglesey than the 430 Cup. It’s absolute rubbish to assume this on track , with the exception of probably Silverstone .
Bispal is right the Lotus is a totally involving Car and in my view at the limit far easier to control then a normal Mac!!!
An Exige Cup430 has far more aero than a Standard 570 and for that matter a 650. This allows it to corner quicker and no amount of fast straights will even that up . On smaller circuits the Lotus would just post consistently faster lap times
I do though concede that on road the Macs do have some advantages not least comfort
And yes I will get a Mac but the point I was making is a Standard 570 at £110,000 is no match for a Cup430 on most tracks !!!
Dread to think what the Golf GTi went round in!
Rocketreid said:
I imagine some are just like some Atoms and Caterhams are far quicker than McLarens and Lotus’s
They do alright: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mpDFxY-nz8, lots of examples on youtube. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxwRgSZiKTk
Golf GTI would have left them both for dust.
Edited by johnwilliams77 on Monday 11th February 11:43
EpsomJames said:
This threads seems to be a comparison of track-biased cars (Exige, Atom, even that stripped out Golf GTI) with Supercars
The fact a 570S can live with an Exige 430 Cup on track is remarkable in itself.
Agree. This started out as being about a Mac 570 vs a Lotus Evora, before suddenly becoming about Mac vs any Lotus including track biased cars, and people lamenting about cars getting heavier.The fact a 570S can live with an Exige 430 Cup on track is remarkable in itself.
Fact is - road cars WILL continue to get heavier as hybridization kicks in, and hopefully manufacturers will learn to still make them fun to drive. They will never be as much fun in the corners as track cars, but then the current “track biased cars” are heavyweights compared to go-karts, which are even more fun.
And for the record the Mac MCL33 should have absolutely no problem seeing off any Lotus or Caterham.....
Edited by 12pack on Monday 11th February 16:42
Bispal said:
I don't think £110k is a joke? Name another manual car which you can drive in relative comfort on road that does 0-60 in around 3 seconds and has F1 & Motorsport heritage. It is Lotus's pinnacle car, their equiv to a McLaren's LT and Porsche's RS cars. It's an amazing road car, more complaint & comfortable than a 350 / V6, the 3 way nitron's are an absolute revelation.
I am not a 'hardcore' Lotus fan but I am a 350 sport owner and former 12C owner and have spent 9 months test driving and deciding what to replace my 12C with, including 650S / 675LT / 991.2 GT3 manual. None really did it for me and I eventually discounted all auto gearboxes (personal choice).
I pick up my 430 cup this week. I am more excited than any other car I have ever owned (and I have owned a lot). These cars are very, very special. While I appreciate a thrill can be had on a bike I have had several Ducati's and after a decade of riding decided it's just not for me anymore. The car 'v' bike thing doesn't work they are totally different, like asking a vegetarian to eat meat.
I'm not bothered about lap times, could not care one jot. If anyone goes faster It doesn't bother me, driver skill is the most important factor, almost anyone can plant their foot in a McLaren on the straight and be the fastest. All that matters to me is the feeling you get when you drive a car on or off a track, the engagement, the interaction and the fun. The Exige is the most fun and engaging car I have driven at any price point and I have put my money where my mouth is.
Porsche 991.2 GT3 with manual gearbox, list price of £115kI am not a 'hardcore' Lotus fan but I am a 350 sport owner and former 12C owner and have spent 9 months test driving and deciding what to replace my 12C with, including 650S / 675LT / 991.2 GT3 manual. None really did it for me and I eventually discounted all auto gearboxes (personal choice).
I pick up my 430 cup this week. I am more excited than any other car I have ever owned (and I have owned a lot). These cars are very, very special. While I appreciate a thrill can be had on a bike I have had several Ducati's and after a decade of riding decided it's just not for me anymore. The car 'v' bike thing doesn't work they are totally different, like asking a vegetarian to eat meat.
I'm not bothered about lap times, could not care one jot. If anyone goes faster It doesn't bother me, driver skill is the most important factor, almost anyone can plant their foot in a McLaren on the straight and be the fastest. All that matters to me is the feeling you get when you drive a car on or off a track, the engagement, the interaction and the fun. The Exige is the most fun and engaging car I have driven at any price point and I have put my money where my mouth is.
Ha ha ha...Porsche list price.
I do not know where the £110k came from...might be a recent advertised price but I paid a worthwhile amount less than £100k for mine 5 months ago.
Depends how you view the 430 Cup Exige...especially if you prefer fornicating over Porsche products (which I accept are extremely good)...you`ll either think it is a very over priced S1 Elise (which it clearly shares the same core chassis with), or you`ll know it is significantly evolved and upgraded Exige S3. Even I who admit to being a Lotus fan (clearly in a minority and therefore must be a bit weird) am disappointed that after all this time they could not fit or upgrade the gearbox to handle a decent amount more torque, which the engine can easily deliver...having said that, the straightline performance is not exactly shabby. On the positive side, I can`t get over how economical it is when driven normally...and that`s not poodling around either...I estimate 30 - 35mpg! and as previously noted, its loads of fun to drive, whether crawling in traffic or on a clear bit of road, although on the road as a McLaren, it soon gets up to silly speeds. Hopefully I will get it on track in the next couple of weeks if the weather holds, then we will really find out what it is capable of.
I do not know where the £110k came from...might be a recent advertised price but I paid a worthwhile amount less than £100k for mine 5 months ago.
Depends how you view the 430 Cup Exige...especially if you prefer fornicating over Porsche products (which I accept are extremely good)...you`ll either think it is a very over priced S1 Elise (which it clearly shares the same core chassis with), or you`ll know it is significantly evolved and upgraded Exige S3. Even I who admit to being a Lotus fan (clearly in a minority and therefore must be a bit weird) am disappointed that after all this time they could not fit or upgrade the gearbox to handle a decent amount more torque, which the engine can easily deliver...having said that, the straightline performance is not exactly shabby. On the positive side, I can`t get over how economical it is when driven normally...and that`s not poodling around either...I estimate 30 - 35mpg! and as previously noted, its loads of fun to drive, whether crawling in traffic or on a clear bit of road, although on the road as a McLaren, it soon gets up to silly speeds. Hopefully I will get it on track in the next couple of weeks if the weather holds, then we will really find out what it is capable of.
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