McLarens & Reliability
Discussion
I am still at a loss as to why car companies put P Zeros on cars sold in the UK. Why? They don't work.
The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
570 has quite an old school feeling turbo engine. It needs revs to produce the goods & to cut the lag down when on & off the throttle.
What it does do very well is keep building throughout the rev range getting stronger & stronger more or less right the way to the rev limit, its an exciting ride!
It's not like most of the modern Mercs / BM's with a surfeit of low down turbo grunt, giving too much too soon & then tailing off as the rev's increase, dull dull dull.
570 does move around a hell of a lot under high speed heavy braking on bumpy roads, if you get carried away whilst the damping is left on normal you can easily tie the car in knots as it gets out of phase with the rapid rise & fall over bumps. It certainly gets the adrenaline pumping with the constant steering corrections to keep it on the straight & narrow when slowing from high speeds on country roads.
I've not driven it on track but would assume that the smoother nature of most circuits would mean this is a lot less of an issue.
Going active sport or track really helps the car to settle much more rapidly but its still no where near as stable as the active suspended & aero 720 I drove.
What it does do very well is keep building throughout the rev range getting stronger & stronger more or less right the way to the rev limit, its an exciting ride!
It's not like most of the modern Mercs / BM's with a surfeit of low down turbo grunt, giving too much too soon & then tailing off as the rev's increase, dull dull dull.
570 does move around a hell of a lot under high speed heavy braking on bumpy roads, if you get carried away whilst the damping is left on normal you can easily tie the car in knots as it gets out of phase with the rapid rise & fall over bumps. It certainly gets the adrenaline pumping with the constant steering corrections to keep it on the straight & narrow when slowing from high speeds on country roads.
I've not driven it on track but would assume that the smoother nature of most circuits would mean this is a lot less of an issue.
Going active sport or track really helps the car to settle much more rapidly but its still no where near as stable as the active suspended & aero 720 I drove.
AndM said:
I am still at a loss as to why car companies put P Zeros on cars sold in the UK. Why? They don't work.
The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
Pirelli supply Formula 1 cars, possibly a connection. Do Mercs, Renaults and Ferraris come with them too?The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
I had P Zeros on my 570GT and never had any issues with them. However I don't drive down the road on the limit of adhesion, I drive to maybe 80% of the car's ability. I am sure Michelins are actually better but Pirellis are not the death traps people make them out to be.
Question for those who moved to Michelins, is there any more tyre/road noise in the cabin? I hate the kind of drone you get in some coupes with oversized rear tyres.
Targarama said:
AndM said:
I am still at a loss as to why car companies put P Zeros on cars sold in the UK. Why? They don't work.
The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
Pirelli supply Formula 1 cars, possibly a connection. Do Mercs, Renaults and Ferraris come with them too?The difference between them and Michelins is staggering. I've experienced this on 911s, an R8 and my current second steed an F-Type R. The difference on the last of these is night and day. It was undriveable on P Zeros to the point of being dangerous. Transformed instantly with a change to PS4s. My 12c came with Michelins fitted and grips brilliantly on them.
I cannot get my head how companies spend tens of millions of pounds refining cars to the nth degree. Then fit tyres that don't work. Astonishing.
I had P Zeros on my 570GT and never had any issues with them. However I don't drive down the road on the limit of adhesion, I drive to maybe 80% of the car's ability. I am sure Michelins are actually better but Pirellis are not the death traps people make them out to be.
Question for those who moved to Michelins, is there any more tyre/road noise in the cabin? I hate the kind of drone you get in some coupes with oversized rear tyres.
Regarding turbo lag my 675LT does have slight turbo lag but it pulls hard to the red line at 8,500 rpm! Every turbo car I have ever driven has lag, including the 570 / 12C / 650S however I can't think of many turbos that get better and better as the revs rise and I guess the slight lag below 3,000 rpm is the trade off. Above 3,000 rpm the power is relentless. You just need to keep it in the zone, which lasts 5,500 rpm! If you want to see how little turbo lag there is now compared to 20 years ago try an original Impreza or a Montego Turbo Diesel
Bispal said:
I changed my Trofeo's to MPS4S, a world of difference, I now have great traction in my 675LT all the time. The Pirelli's just didn't work unless the conditions were perfect, which was not often. The Michelin's have no more road noise, possibly less, and seem smoother. I will never, ever buy Pirelli. Michelin all the way.
Regarding turbo lag my 675LT does have slight turbo lag but it pulls hard to the red line at 8,500 rpm! Every turbo car I have ever driven has lag, including the 570 / 12C / 650S however I can't think of many turbos that get better and better as the revs rise and I guess the slight lag below 3,000 rpm is the trade off. Above 3,000 rpm the power is relentless. You just need to keep it in the zone, which lasts 5,500 rpm! If you want to see how little turbo lag there is now compared to 20 years ago try an original Impreza or a Montego Turbo Diesel
A F8 tributo has no noticeable lag in my experience.Regarding turbo lag my 675LT does have slight turbo lag but it pulls hard to the red line at 8,500 rpm! Every turbo car I have ever driven has lag, including the 570 / 12C / 650S however I can't think of many turbos that get better and better as the revs rise and I guess the slight lag below 3,000 rpm is the trade off. Above 3,000 rpm the power is relentless. You just need to keep it in the zone, which lasts 5,500 rpm! If you want to see how little turbo lag there is now compared to 20 years ago try an original Impreza or a Montego Turbo Diesel
I was amazed at how instant tge throttle response was. Ferrari have done a great job on eliminating it IMHO.
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag and well worth the £250 upgrade as they can be cleaned every 5,000 miles and never need replacing
On the tyre issue, do the companies decide these at the outset then design the rest of the car around them? There can be no other explanation why you would sell a McLaren in the UK with P Zeros having tested it with any other tyres.
Maybe they work on hot roads in Spain or Italy. They certainly don't in this country.
Maybe they work on hot roads in Spain or Italy. They certainly don't in this country.
Targarama said:
I am sure Michelins are actually better but Pirellis are not the death traps people make them out to be.
If Michelins are better (they are by miles) is that not enough of a reason to sell the car with them?It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
Edited by AndM on Wednesday 4th November 12:42
WilliamWaiver said:
A F8 tributo has no noticeable lag in my experience.
I was amazed at how instant tge throttle response was. Ferrari have done a great job on eliminating it IMHO.
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag and well worth the £250 upgrade as they can be cleaned every 5,000 miles and never need replacing
Incredible, with all of McLarens engineering knowledge who'd have thought that you could noticably reduce lag by DIY fitting a couple of aftermarket air filters.I was amazed at how instant tge throttle response was. Ferrari have done a great job on eliminating it IMHO.
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag and well worth the £250 upgrade as they can be cleaned every 5,000 miles and never need replacing
WilliamWaiver said:
A F8 tributo has no noticeable lag in my experience.
I was amazed at how instant tge throttle response was. Ferrari have done a great job on eliminating it IMHO.
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag and well worth the £250 upgrade as they can be cleaned every 5,000 miles and never need replacing
I tried a 488 which made the 650 I bought seem like such a good deal.I was amazed at how instant tge throttle response was. Ferrari have done a great job on eliminating it IMHO.
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag and well worth the £250 upgrade as they can be cleaned every 5,000 miles and never need replacing
Ferrari keep a high compression ratio on their turbo V8s, which makes them respond more like NA ones, but at the cost of top end boost, even with electronics that allow the compression ratio to vary with rpm. Again, Italian emphasis on how a car feels like it performs, compared to how it actually does.
Given that (in the 650 at least) the turbo lag is only really when you first give it the boot, and stays on boost subsequently, I’d rather have the top end performance.
Edited by 12pack on Wednesday 4th November 12:14
WilliamWaiver said:
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag
Stick to placing orders for new cars which you never have any intention of actually buying and leave the tech talk to others as you clearly have zero idea 
TB993tt said:
WilliamWaiver said:
As regards the 675LT some BMC performance air filters instead of bog standard poor quality OEM ones will noticeably reduce lag
Stick to placing orders for new cars which you never have any intention of actually buying and leave the tech talk to others as you clearly have zero idea WilliamWaiver said:
Matty3 said:
Have you taken delivery of your 675 or whatever yet William?
Mon 2nd Nov 
AndM said:
If Michelins are better (they are by miles) is that not enough of a reason to sell the car with them?
It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
I also don’t think the Pirelli tyres are as bad as people make out. I‘ve peddled my 600 pretty damn hard on a few hoons this year inc one last night at 4-5c and never had them feeling unstable or losing traction.It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
Edited by AndM on Wednesday 4th November 12:42
Is it down to different driving styles maybe, I’ll always be as smooth as possible with throttle applications. I don’t think you can boot it everywhere and expect not to lose traction, maybe it’s also about reading road conditions and react accordingly.
Crazy4557 said:
AndM said:
If Michelins are better (they are by miles) is that not enough of a reason to sell the car with them?
It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
I also don’t think the Pirelli tyres are as bad as people make out. I‘ve peddled my 600 pretty damn hard on a few hoons this year inc one last night at 4-5c and never had them feeling unstable or losing traction.It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
Edited by AndM on Wednesday 4th November 12:42
Is it down to different driving styles maybe, I’ll always be as smooth as possible with throttle applications. I don’t think you can boot it everywhere and expect not to lose traction, maybe it’s also about reading road conditions and react accordingly.
(Athough by coincidence, I was discussing tyres with a friend about a week ago, and when I said that his reply was : Didn't you spin that car on the track?
Er - yes........ must have been the crap tyres.............)
Crazy4557 said:
AndM said:
If Michelins are better (they are by miles) is that not enough of a reason to sell the car with them?
It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
I also don’t think the Pirelli tyres are as bad as people make out. I‘ve peddled my 600 pretty damn hard on a few hoons this year inc one last night at 4-5c and never had them feeling unstable or losing traction.It is damning with faint praise to say that the Pirellis aren't death traps.
Edited by AndM on Wednesday 4th November 12:42
Is it down to different driving styles maybe, I’ll always be as smooth as possible with throttle applications. I don’t think you can boot it everywhere and expect not to lose traction, maybe it’s also about reading road conditions and react accordingly.
I agree driving style is relevant but if you have a tyre that doesn't lose traction on hard throttle it will not lose traction on lesser throttle. One which does both is better than one which does not. I have seen this with P Zeros on multiple high performance cars. The most obvious and recent example being my F Type R. 542 bhp, front engined rwd. Would spin its wheels in the damp in 5th under less than full throttle. In the dry would easily spin them in 3rd. The grip loss was not progressive and was not predictable.
The Michelin PS4s have massively changed that. Car much more planted and predictable. Traction hugely better. My 12c is lighter and more powerful. Been on Michelins since I got it. Grip and traction never an issue.
It brings me back to what I've always wondered. Does the car company decide the tyre at the start of the design process then do the best they can with it? I just cannot believe that much better drivers than I will ever be would not also immediately be able to get more (in our climate anyway) on tyres other than P Zeros.
Edited by AndM on Wednesday 4th November 14:28
I guess the thing is - even if the difference between Pirelli and Michelin is subjective - I don't think I've ever seen a post from somebody saying they prefer the Pirelli, whereas there are lots from people saying they prefer the Michelin (and that's been true for many years on many cars)
BoxerF50 said:
As it has basically been another year, I just posted an updated article on our McLarens & Reliability on karenable. In summary:
McLaren #5 – 2015 650S Spider: This car has been my daily driver for the last 4 ½ years now. No issues and only time it has been back to the dealership is for its yearly service. There have been a couple of minor recalls, all of which have been handled as part of the annual service. This year we also replaced all four tires and did a full wheel alignment. Four years of driving around the lunar surface like roads of Dallas had not be kind to either. The only other very minor tantrum the 650S Spider has thrown was over a dislike for 64GB Scandisk USB drives. When I tried to use one with the IRIS infotainment system it repeatedly crashed. Once I swapped the 64GB USB drive for the 32GB drive I had been using prior, IRIS immediately returned to life.
McLaren #6 – 2016 675LT Spider: This car has done multiple 1000+ miles road trips and been driven hard in the mountains its entire life. The 675LT Spider has never had a single issue and it’s only has seen the inside of the workshop for its annual services. Like the 650S Spider, a few minor recalls have been taken care of during the annual visits to the McLaren service center. To date the largest cost has been this year’s windshield replacement. The damage was caused by a rock that flew off the back of a large dump truck in Pennsylvania. It sounded like a gun shot when it hit the windshield.
McLaren #7 – 2018 720S: Never had a single problem and it just had its second completely routine annual service.
McLaren #8 – 2019 Senna: The Senna just arrived in June. So far, it’s had one recall item that was prompt taken care of.
I'm late to asking this, but thought I'd try anyway.McLaren #5 – 2015 650S Spider: This car has been my daily driver for the last 4 ½ years now. No issues and only time it has been back to the dealership is for its yearly service. There have been a couple of minor recalls, all of which have been handled as part of the annual service. This year we also replaced all four tires and did a full wheel alignment. Four years of driving around the lunar surface like roads of Dallas had not be kind to either. The only other very minor tantrum the 650S Spider has thrown was over a dislike for 64GB Scandisk USB drives. When I tried to use one with the IRIS infotainment system it repeatedly crashed. Once I swapped the 64GB USB drive for the 32GB drive I had been using prior, IRIS immediately returned to life.
McLaren #6 – 2016 675LT Spider: This car has done multiple 1000+ miles road trips and been driven hard in the mountains its entire life. The 675LT Spider has never had a single issue and it’s only has seen the inside of the workshop for its annual services. Like the 650S Spider, a few minor recalls have been taken care of during the annual visits to the McLaren service center. To date the largest cost has been this year’s windshield replacement. The damage was caused by a rock that flew off the back of a large dump truck in Pennsylvania. It sounded like a gun shot when it hit the windshield.
McLaren #7 – 2018 720S: Never had a single problem and it just had its second completely routine annual service.
McLaren #8 – 2019 Senna: The Senna just arrived in June. So far, it’s had one recall item that was prompt taken care of.
Why so many similar cars? Is it that you've a far larger collection and that this is just the McLaren bit of it?
davek_964 said:
Did I miss the photos?
I think that there must be a problem with that thread, as it doesn't seem to be updating, so maybe that's the explanation.It is unfortunate if it turns out that despite really buying the car and taking it to be worked on he wasn't able to get even a single picture.
Kent Border Kenny said:
I think that there must be a problem with that thread, as it doesn't seem to be updating, so maybe that's the explanation.
It is unfortunate if it turns out that despite really buying the car and taking it to be worked on he wasn't able to get even a single picture.
FFS why do I need a picture of a car i OWN.It is unfortunate if it turns out that despite really buying the car and taking it to be worked on he wasn't able to get even a single picture.
If you are that desperate to see it you can drive to Thorney Motorsport but on the meantime give it a rest please
I have nothing to prove to PH
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