MP12. reliability v warranty
Discussion
Hi there. I am new to this so please bare with me.
1) Over a number of years I have owned a variety of cars : Dax Rush, Cobra, Westfield, Caterham, Ferrari, Porsche, TVR, Lotus. I am also a biker. My main love has always been Lotus and I've owned a few.
2) My favourite car has always been the Esprit and years ago I had a conversation with the Lotus MD about a replacement. I explained that the Evora ( then newly out ) was just a half-way house to a new Esprit. He agreed but had limited funds for its development. So it never came.
3) The McLaren to me is exactly what I would have expected the Esprit development to have been. I believe that even their staff are ex Lotus. So you can understand that I WANT ONE !!!
4) McLaren now seem to have exactly the same problems with residuals and reliability/warranty that Lotus had in the late 90's onwards, but for different reasons:
Lotus main agents would not sell used Esprits due to the worry of reliability, leaving it to the large number of independ dealers. Lotus thus lost total control of residential values and with limited warranty prices plummeted, cheapening the whole brand and effecting sales. Even now you can ask - Have they ever fully recovered ? or How further advanced would the brand be now if it had not had this poor history ?
McLaren appear to have this same problem - falling residuals that are effecting sales. People will always be put off a new purchase when seeing such low used values. As Lotus, McLaren have lost control of it's residuals due to the fear of expensive reliability issues. Their dealers are reluctant to retail them and are only prepared to do so if sold with ultra expensive warranty. This makes the purchaser very nervous about the car and a reluctant purchaser of a warranty that should not to necessary. Remember owning your dream car is supposed to be fun !!!
If McLaren carry on as they are , will they end up with a damaged brand like Lotus did ? and How long might it take them to recover ? and At what ultimate cost ?
5) Mclaren policy is that ALL faults should be rectified at a cost to the owner, either directly or thorough a purchased warrenty. Including faults common with many cars and faults originating from manufacturing problem ( such as : poor quality component choice, design floor, assembly fault, material conflict that may cause failure or excessive wear etc etc )
The solution ?? Well from where I'm sitting that easy. McLaren should have taken the high ground and listed all these common problems as Factory Recalls, taking on the burden of repair. For them ,this would have been a cheap solution.
eg The gear box leak. This would have been sent back to the supplier to rectify at the suppliers expense. It's due to their design or poor component choice so theirs to fix. Cost to McLaren ? Just labour to remove and replace the box. As this is a manufacturing issue, age or mileage should be no issue.
With this company policy, purchasing a used car would contain a far more limited risk. Some may not even feel the need for extra warranty. The warranty itself could then be far cheaper. Main agents would be less nervous to supply. Customers would be happier to buy. Residual values wound be high. New car sales would be higher
A footnote to Lotus is this: Due to the main agents mistrust of the Esprit, Lotus became known as Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.
Most people believe all cars prior to the Elise were just unreliable rubbish. However, if you ask a knowledgeable owner you will find this is simply not true. Infact the opposite is true ,they are far more reliable than most.
If McLaren carry on as they are and gain a reputation for poor reliability and large bill, they may find it both very damaging to the brand and a label difficult to shift, even if the future shows this label to be false.
6) The conclusion. If Mr McLaren gets his head on straight and lists the problems as factory recalls. I would gladly buy a used one tomorrow. The burden of factory derived faults would be lifted ( as it should be ) leaving me a clear head to enjoy the spectacular car they built, without me feeling that I've just put all my money on red.
What do you say Mr McLaren ?? On this issue I feel that I could do a better job than you, and that's not good!!
When replying, please remember that this was written by someone with years of first hand experience, oh and I've also been a machinary parts importer/ supplier, an engineer and a mechanic.
I've read so much rubbish written by people with major bias or zero experience or both. Please think before you post
Thanks for reading.
1) Over a number of years I have owned a variety of cars : Dax Rush, Cobra, Westfield, Caterham, Ferrari, Porsche, TVR, Lotus. I am also a biker. My main love has always been Lotus and I've owned a few.
2) My favourite car has always been the Esprit and years ago I had a conversation with the Lotus MD about a replacement. I explained that the Evora ( then newly out ) was just a half-way house to a new Esprit. He agreed but had limited funds for its development. So it never came.
3) The McLaren to me is exactly what I would have expected the Esprit development to have been. I believe that even their staff are ex Lotus. So you can understand that I WANT ONE !!!
4) McLaren now seem to have exactly the same problems with residuals and reliability/warranty that Lotus had in the late 90's onwards, but for different reasons:
Lotus main agents would not sell used Esprits due to the worry of reliability, leaving it to the large number of independ dealers. Lotus thus lost total control of residential values and with limited warranty prices plummeted, cheapening the whole brand and effecting sales. Even now you can ask - Have they ever fully recovered ? or How further advanced would the brand be now if it had not had this poor history ?
McLaren appear to have this same problem - falling residuals that are effecting sales. People will always be put off a new purchase when seeing such low used values. As Lotus, McLaren have lost control of it's residuals due to the fear of expensive reliability issues. Their dealers are reluctant to retail them and are only prepared to do so if sold with ultra expensive warranty. This makes the purchaser very nervous about the car and a reluctant purchaser of a warranty that should not to necessary. Remember owning your dream car is supposed to be fun !!!
If McLaren carry on as they are , will they end up with a damaged brand like Lotus did ? and How long might it take them to recover ? and At what ultimate cost ?
5) Mclaren policy is that ALL faults should be rectified at a cost to the owner, either directly or thorough a purchased warrenty. Including faults common with many cars and faults originating from manufacturing problem ( such as : poor quality component choice, design floor, assembly fault, material conflict that may cause failure or excessive wear etc etc )
The solution ?? Well from where I'm sitting that easy. McLaren should have taken the high ground and listed all these common problems as Factory Recalls, taking on the burden of repair. For them ,this would have been a cheap solution.
eg The gear box leak. This would have been sent back to the supplier to rectify at the suppliers expense. It's due to their design or poor component choice so theirs to fix. Cost to McLaren ? Just labour to remove and replace the box. As this is a manufacturing issue, age or mileage should be no issue.
With this company policy, purchasing a used car would contain a far more limited risk. Some may not even feel the need for extra warranty. The warranty itself could then be far cheaper. Main agents would be less nervous to supply. Customers would be happier to buy. Residual values wound be high. New car sales would be higher
A footnote to Lotus is this: Due to the main agents mistrust of the Esprit, Lotus became known as Lots Of Trouble Usually Serious.
Most people believe all cars prior to the Elise were just unreliable rubbish. However, if you ask a knowledgeable owner you will find this is simply not true. Infact the opposite is true ,they are far more reliable than most.
If McLaren carry on as they are and gain a reputation for poor reliability and large bill, they may find it both very damaging to the brand and a label difficult to shift, even if the future shows this label to be false.
6) The conclusion. If Mr McLaren gets his head on straight and lists the problems as factory recalls. I would gladly buy a used one tomorrow. The burden of factory derived faults would be lifted ( as it should be ) leaving me a clear head to enjoy the spectacular car they built, without me feeling that I've just put all my money on red.
What do you say Mr McLaren ?? On this issue I feel that I could do a better job than you, and that's not good!!
When replying, please remember that this was written by someone with years of first hand experience, oh and I've also been a machinary parts importer/ supplier, an engineer and a mechanic.
I've read so much rubbish written by people with major bias or zero experience or both. Please think before you post
Thanks for reading.
For what it's worth, I think much of McLaren's challenges stem from it being a new-ish car maker, but I also think that it is rapidly addressing most of those and more quickly than most new car makers would.
(all of this is my view / perception, some of which is based on little or no practical experience)
Quality was worse with the MP4-12C than it was with the 650S and the 570S/720S seem to be at least as good if not better than the 650S. Unfortunately stories from the early days last a long time but I don't see anything now that suggests quality is 'bad' - it is better than a lot of smaller volume producers but not as good as the mature mass market. Lamborghini have produced cars with inherent gearbox faults and not recalled them. They just fixed them when they broke.
As a new entrant, there were no independents which further skews the market in all areas - warranty, repairs, residuals. That's partly the reality of a new car maker and partly because McLaren seems to have resisted that for a while. I'm whether McLaren's stance has changed or whether the independents have just overcome the barriers - but as quality has improved and continues to do so, and warranty and repair costs come down, it will be a virtuous circle.
McLaren's launch schedule has certainly impacted residuals a lot - hard to know how much they understood this, how much they screwed up, or how much necessity (due in part to quality) meant that they had to refresh the range.
There was just a post from SecretSupercarOwner listing his McLaren experience across several cars from 12C to P1 which is very positive. And increasingly posts from owners refuting the doom and gloom of internet stories.
Lotus cars have long had the feel of a car put together by very talented engineers in a shed (can't speak for Evora, but Esprit, Elise etc.). The quality of those does not seem a patch on McLaren and they've had a lot longer to work at it but are starved of investment, so spend all the development money on handling and powertrain.
On the warranty - I see where you are coming from, but is £3,500K for a Sports Series and £5K ish for a Super Series really that far out? And there are alternatives coming through too. On balance I'm not sure that recalling cars and impacting every owner would help the brand more than an 'overpriced' but comprehensive and no-fuss warranty.
(all of this is my view / perception, some of which is based on little or no practical experience)
Quality was worse with the MP4-12C than it was with the 650S and the 570S/720S seem to be at least as good if not better than the 650S. Unfortunately stories from the early days last a long time but I don't see anything now that suggests quality is 'bad' - it is better than a lot of smaller volume producers but not as good as the mature mass market. Lamborghini have produced cars with inherent gearbox faults and not recalled them. They just fixed them when they broke.
As a new entrant, there were no independents which further skews the market in all areas - warranty, repairs, residuals. That's partly the reality of a new car maker and partly because McLaren seems to have resisted that for a while. I'm whether McLaren's stance has changed or whether the independents have just overcome the barriers - but as quality has improved and continues to do so, and warranty and repair costs come down, it will be a virtuous circle.
McLaren's launch schedule has certainly impacted residuals a lot - hard to know how much they understood this, how much they screwed up, or how much necessity (due in part to quality) meant that they had to refresh the range.
There was just a post from SecretSupercarOwner listing his McLaren experience across several cars from 12C to P1 which is very positive. And increasingly posts from owners refuting the doom and gloom of internet stories.
Lotus cars have long had the feel of a car put together by very talented engineers in a shed (can't speak for Evora, but Esprit, Elise etc.). The quality of those does not seem a patch on McLaren and they've had a lot longer to work at it but are starved of investment, so spend all the development money on handling and powertrain.
On the warranty - I see where you are coming from, but is £3,500K for a Sports Series and £5K ish for a Super Series really that far out? And there are alternatives coming through too. On balance I'm not sure that recalling cars and impacting every owner would help the brand more than an 'overpriced' but comprehensive and no-fuss warranty.
Edited by CharlesElliott on Thursday 14th February 17:46
Hi there.
Firstly, I absolutely agree that you can not compare the build quality and technical specs of a mc12 and Esprit. The Esprit was developed in the mid 70's for God sake. But the situation and principal is similar.
Secondly. Placing a fault on a recall, does not make it automatic for all cars. In practice this fault would be kept an eye on during servicing and dealt with if and only if the fault develops. Or if the part fails during use. If the majority of cars develop no fault then these cars will be left well alone. Often a fault can be traced to a small batch of components effecting a limited number of cars.
On the Esprit V8 for example, the engines suffered a sealing problem caused in the assembly process. Some engines were replaced or rebuild under warranty but the majority of cars never developed any fault.
Finally. As I said before, peace of mind that McLaren will fix a know fault is worth its weight in gold. If it turns out to be limited to a very small number of cars, then it's a win, win, win situation. Surely a no brained for McLaren !!! For them to get the same amount of positive customer feel would otherwise cost many millions in advertising promotion. As I say it's a no-brainer!!!
Firstly, I absolutely agree that you can not compare the build quality and technical specs of a mc12 and Esprit. The Esprit was developed in the mid 70's for God sake. But the situation and principal is similar.
Secondly. Placing a fault on a recall, does not make it automatic for all cars. In practice this fault would be kept an eye on during servicing and dealt with if and only if the fault develops. Or if the part fails during use. If the majority of cars develop no fault then these cars will be left well alone. Often a fault can be traced to a small batch of components effecting a limited number of cars.
On the Esprit V8 for example, the engines suffered a sealing problem caused in the assembly process. Some engines were replaced or rebuild under warranty but the majority of cars never developed any fault.
Finally. As I said before, peace of mind that McLaren will fix a know fault is worth its weight in gold. If it turns out to be limited to a very small number of cars, then it's a win, win, win situation. Surely a no brained for McLaren !!! For them to get the same amount of positive customer feel would otherwise cost many millions in advertising promotion. As I say it's a no-brainer!!!
I want a mp12. These are older, cost around £200000 new, is under 6 years old, owned by a caring , cosseting owner, covered under 25000 miles and we'll serviced .
Therefore I should not be worried about possible faults with eyewatering costs.
Later cars I agree should be safe, but so should the older ones
Therefore I should not be worried about possible faults with eyewatering costs.
Later cars I agree should be safe, but so should the older ones
Its a £200,000 car, with more tech than a spaceship, built by a new company with limited dealers that are there to sell new cars not keep the old ones going.
If it was absolutely bombproof and not a risk it would be worth alot more.
So let's think of it the otherway, if there dealer support was brilliant, indie support, the cars are bombproof and they had realeased 2-3 models in the 6 years rather than one every 6 months even the cheapest mp4-12c would probably be £150k
But instead they are £80k with the possibility of a big bill if your unlucky, as a buyer of a second hand car your quids in currently. Get a used one with a years warranty, then get it looked after by an indie. They can't drop much more otherwise people will just buy a second car for spares if cost of repair is so crazy
And maybe the sportseries is the one to have at this end of the market. 2k a year saving on warranty alone. No brainer really.
The thing is if say mclaren reduced there warranty cost now to say half then maybe it would effect the new car sales.
A far better plan for them would just be to extend it a further year on there new ones.
If warranty costs and running costs got cheaper I feel the second hand values would instantly firm up and creep up because at the minute they are real value because of everyone's fears
They are getting to the point buying a new one isn't worth it unless money really isn't a concern
If it was absolutely bombproof and not a risk it would be worth alot more.
So let's think of it the otherway, if there dealer support was brilliant, indie support, the cars are bombproof and they had realeased 2-3 models in the 6 years rather than one every 6 months even the cheapest mp4-12c would probably be £150k
But instead they are £80k with the possibility of a big bill if your unlucky, as a buyer of a second hand car your quids in currently. Get a used one with a years warranty, then get it looked after by an indie. They can't drop much more otherwise people will just buy a second car for spares if cost of repair is so crazy
And maybe the sportseries is the one to have at this end of the market. 2k a year saving on warranty alone. No brainer really.
The thing is if say mclaren reduced there warranty cost now to say half then maybe it would effect the new car sales.
A far better plan for them would just be to extend it a further year on there new ones.
If warranty costs and running costs got cheaper I feel the second hand values would instantly firm up and creep up because at the minute they are real value because of everyone's fears
They are getting to the point buying a new one isn't worth it unless money really isn't a concern
crimbo said:
But instead they are £80k with the possibility of a big bill if your unlucky, as a buyer of a second hand car your quids in currently. Get a used one with a years warranty, then get it looked after by an indie. They can't drop much more otherwise people will just buy a second car for spares if cost of repair is so crazy
As somebody who would like one - and who could find the £80k - that isn't my perception.They are £80k with pretty high annual running costs even if you don't have a big bill. My 360 can throw a big bill if I'm unlucky - but I don't feel the need to run a £5.5k warranty on it, and I'm not losing ~£10k a year in depreciation. (And from another thread I saw recently - I also don't need to spend £3k with Ferrari if I want a new battery).
I can afford to buy a 12C - and probably could afford a 540 or 570 if I really wanted one. But I'm quite sure I couldn't afford to run one - even if it didn't throw unexpected big bills.
I went in to buy a new 570GT and walked away with a one-previous-owner 650s spider. Getting into a truly high end performance car with a no compromise droptop (no 570 spider available then) was too compelling.
The new car would have come with a 3 year warranty - so 2 years longer, but I figured all the issues had been addressed on my car already.
But really my point is that while I got a super series car, at a sports series price, I fully recognize that service and warranty costs will remain at super series level. The same applies for the 12C at $80K.
If I draw a parallel in the business I am in, for Mclaren to issue recalls, they would have to establish the defect level to be significantly higher than industry norm, or safety critical. Even then, they would require significant corporate will to manage such a situation including pushing the costs back to the module maker where the defect came from.
The new car would have come with a 3 year warranty - so 2 years longer, but I figured all the issues had been addressed on my car already.
But really my point is that while I got a super series car, at a sports series price, I fully recognize that service and warranty costs will remain at super series level. The same applies for the 12C at $80K.
If I draw a parallel in the business I am in, for Mclaren to issue recalls, they would have to establish the defect level to be significantly higher than industry norm, or safety critical. Even then, they would require significant corporate will to manage such a situation including pushing the costs back to the module maker where the defect came from.
isaldiri said:
It's still £20k less than a 570, it's got better build quality, it drives more to your liking and you like the way it looks more. Not that difficult......
Or, as is actually more likely the case, because they're budget constrained. No one chooses to buy the oldest, most expensive to run, most dated, least desirable model out of choice. They buy it because it's the cheapest. In which case the 570 makes more financial sense for the cash strapped. Not that difficult....foxsasha said:
Or, as is actually more likely the case, because they're budget constrained. No one chooses to buy the oldest, most expensive to run, most dated, least desirable model out of choice. They buy it because it's the cheapest. In which case the 570 makes more financial sense for the cash strapped. Not that difficult....
I'm sure the above applies in some cases but you're blanket claiming 'no one would buy a 12c out of choice'. That's patent nonsense.I think your all missing the point. If your product has a number of know faults, some small and some big. That may or may not show themselves over time, the best contingency plan would be to have a process in place to rectify it when necessary ,not at a cost to the customer. Especially if your a premium brand. You would do this by passing on the cost to the supplier. As importers of machinery, that's what we did.
As for buying a MP12, don't ever assume that just because you wouldn't buy one, others won't want one. That's crazy.
Personally I prefer the front on the MP12 more that all the other models but I'm sure you don't !!
As for buying a MP12, don't ever assume that just because you wouldn't buy one, others won't want one. That's crazy.
Personally I prefer the front on the MP12 more that all the other models but I'm sure you don't !!
davek_964 said:
I can afford to buy a 12C - and probably could afford a 540 or 570 if I really wanted one. But I'm quite sure I couldn't afford to run one - even if it didn't throw unexpected big bills.
And that's exactly why they are £80k, your not alone and I am sure something will change in time. Thorny have started the ball rolling interms of indies. I couldn't run my cars if it wasnt for indies.
Anycar can have problems and at the moment there's just a fear around these cars on the used car market because of lack of support
But at least you can get a warranty. I don't think you can even get one of them on a lambo after the initial one is over
I get your frustration because you have worked up to where you can buy one but if it was cheaper to run they wouldn't be in this price bracket at all
foxsasha said:
Why would you buy a 7 year old 12C for 80k when you can get a less than 3 year old 570 for under 100k.
Because for many (including me) the 12C looks better and has active aero & suspension. To my eyes the 12C remains the best looking Mclaren bar the F1. The 570 does nothing for me, esp. the interior with its Tandy instrument display. The giant tachometer seals the deal. The exterior is beautiful, classy, restrained & purposeful. The 570 is tying too hard and has too much going on. The 12C has a faster top end but the 570 is a bit more reactive at lower speeds. Both amazing to drive but the 12C is more of an event.That's why I would buy a 12C over a 570 and even a 650. The 720 is growing on me though, i just wish it didn't have the Tandy display....
The 12C has taken its huge hit on value and is now slowing right down; there will always, like any marque be the cheaper neglected ones out there for sale which will find its buyers just like the better condition ones for sale will always find a buyer.
At £80k, it is already amongst the F430s, F355s and 360s and it makes all of them seem stone age. Been there, done that and if anyone thinks keeping an older Ferrari in tip top condition is cheaper than a £5k a year warranty they are in for a surprise.
The prices shall drop lower, but probably by another £10-£15k or so* before they really settle, and then its only the maintenance side of things you need to focus on rather than thinking about depreciation also; that's when it becomes a more attractive proposition like the aforementioned Ferraris for long term keepers.
Have a quick look at the classifieds how many 12c models are for sale; approx. 30 between coupe and spiders. Likewise there are only 20 or so 650 spiders for sale; its not like you are spoiled for choice. Alternatives; F430s nearly 100 for sale between variants, F355s 360s each have near 80 of each, 458s over 100.
However, this topic has went the direct comparison route; a 12C versus a newer 540 or 570. There is one thing for sure; you shall lose far more currently on a 540 or 570 than you shall on a 12C ( unless you buy one of them advertised 12Cs at £100k + ).
The 12C is way out of production whereas there are already over 130 570's for sale and they are still churning them out. With a choice like that available prices are driven down to make a sellers 570 a more attractive proposition than similar ones for sale. In the not too distant future the 570 shall be at the same entry point as the 12C and then drop below, and that's when the super series with low volume numbers and stable price become the far more desirable vehicle to have sitting in the garage.
In late October I spoke to a local dealer as he had a 12C before and now has a 16' 570 as his own vehicle about advice on the 650spider. Very quickly he offered me the 570 as it had £40k of extras and 'better' than a 650. I declined as the 650 is what I want and I said 570s shall be starting with a 9 within 6 months which he said there was no chance....well they were actually there within 3 months and he is still trying to sell a with similar age models for far less than his...its currently £20k less than he offered me it and that's without haggling.
There is the factor also that there are a fair few 540 & 570s on 3 year deals, at some point these shall also have to hit they already busy market place for sport series; the impact shall make it even tougher to sell which then causes price reductions.
There is already the growing thought that the 12C is becoming prettier every day with its simple lines. What's there not to like with the air brake, magic carpet ride,outrageous capabilities, performance and the fact you could drive all day long with almost no chance of seeing another?
My prediction is good 12Cs sitting around the £70k mark and good 650s sitting around the £90k mark in 12months from now....I wonder if I am out and by how much?!
At £80k, it is already amongst the F430s, F355s and 360s and it makes all of them seem stone age. Been there, done that and if anyone thinks keeping an older Ferrari in tip top condition is cheaper than a £5k a year warranty they are in for a surprise.
The prices shall drop lower, but probably by another £10-£15k or so* before they really settle, and then its only the maintenance side of things you need to focus on rather than thinking about depreciation also; that's when it becomes a more attractive proposition like the aforementioned Ferraris for long term keepers.
Have a quick look at the classifieds how many 12c models are for sale; approx. 30 between coupe and spiders. Likewise there are only 20 or so 650 spiders for sale; its not like you are spoiled for choice. Alternatives; F430s nearly 100 for sale between variants, F355s 360s each have near 80 of each, 458s over 100.
However, this topic has went the direct comparison route; a 12C versus a newer 540 or 570. There is one thing for sure; you shall lose far more currently on a 540 or 570 than you shall on a 12C ( unless you buy one of them advertised 12Cs at £100k + ).
The 12C is way out of production whereas there are already over 130 570's for sale and they are still churning them out. With a choice like that available prices are driven down to make a sellers 570 a more attractive proposition than similar ones for sale. In the not too distant future the 570 shall be at the same entry point as the 12C and then drop below, and that's when the super series with low volume numbers and stable price become the far more desirable vehicle to have sitting in the garage.
In late October I spoke to a local dealer as he had a 12C before and now has a 16' 570 as his own vehicle about advice on the 650spider. Very quickly he offered me the 570 as it had £40k of extras and 'better' than a 650. I declined as the 650 is what I want and I said 570s shall be starting with a 9 within 6 months which he said there was no chance....well they were actually there within 3 months and he is still trying to sell a with similar age models for far less than his...its currently £20k less than he offered me it and that's without haggling.
There is the factor also that there are a fair few 540 & 570s on 3 year deals, at some point these shall also have to hit they already busy market place for sport series; the impact shall make it even tougher to sell which then causes price reductions.
There is already the growing thought that the 12C is becoming prettier every day with its simple lines. What's there not to like with the air brake, magic carpet ride,outrageous capabilities, performance and the fact you could drive all day long with almost no chance of seeing another?
My prediction is good 12Cs sitting around the £70k mark and good 650s sitting around the £90k mark in 12months from now....I wonder if I am out and by how much?!
- unless 2012 happens again and then all bets are off!
Bispal said:
Because for many (including me) the 12C looks better and has active aero & suspension. To my eyes the 12C remains the best looking Mclaren bar the F1. The 570 does nothing for me, esp. the interior with its Tandy instrument display. The giant tachometer seals the deal. The exterior is beautiful, classy, restrained & purposeful. The 570 is tying too hard and has too much going on. The 12C has a faster top end but the 570 is a bit more reactive at lower speeds. Both amazing to drive but the 12C is more of an event.
That's why I would buy a 12C over a 570 and even a 650. The 720 is growing on me though, i just wish it didn't have the Tandy display....
Don’t discount a 650. The mid range torque over both the 12c, and even the 570, is what did it for me. No lag from 3k revs. And the front end looks stunning in black.... That's why I would buy a 12C over a 570 and even a 650. The 720 is growing on me though, i just wish it didn't have the Tandy display....
McLaren are still finding their feet within the marketplace. There is always a juggling act between units sold and unit price. The higher the price the fewer the units.
There must be a minimum number of unit sales mixed between new and used to maintain a main dealer in profit, otherwise main dealers will not last and will be constantly changing which is bad for the brand. This is why there is high unit output and a downward adjustment in price. This is always a juggling act because there is always the risk of cheapening your brand.
In addition, heritage is extremely important. This is why they should never lose focus on past models. The best thing to do is to offer price insensitives or concessions to help owners keep them mint. Again as a brand you don't want their prices to drop too far.
This thread seems to be shifting from my original post about warranty. But again the above shows more reasons why McLaren should take care of fault and problems caused during development of floors in manufacturing.
IMO the cost of servicing, maintenance and warranty should all be lower on older cars to insentivise the customer to stay within the dealer network. The worst possible thing for McLaren would be that in 5 or so years that there are several cars in poor repair, neglected or even unusable. It stands to reason that the owner of an £80 car does not have the same finance at the owner of a £200000 car. Also if you have £200000 to spend on a car, how would you feel if you could see older models in poor condition......... You'd look elsewhere !!
There must be a minimum number of unit sales mixed between new and used to maintain a main dealer in profit, otherwise main dealers will not last and will be constantly changing which is bad for the brand. This is why there is high unit output and a downward adjustment in price. This is always a juggling act because there is always the risk of cheapening your brand.
In addition, heritage is extremely important. This is why they should never lose focus on past models. The best thing to do is to offer price insensitives or concessions to help owners keep them mint. Again as a brand you don't want their prices to drop too far.
This thread seems to be shifting from my original post about warranty. But again the above shows more reasons why McLaren should take care of fault and problems caused during development of floors in manufacturing.
IMO the cost of servicing, maintenance and warranty should all be lower on older cars to insentivise the customer to stay within the dealer network. The worst possible thing for McLaren would be that in 5 or so years that there are several cars in poor repair, neglected or even unusable. It stands to reason that the owner of an £80 car does not have the same finance at the owner of a £200000 car. Also if you have £200000 to spend on a car, how would you feel if you could see older models in poor condition......... You'd look elsewhere !!
Bispal said:
foxsasha said:
Why would you buy a 7 year old 12C for 80k when you can get a less than 3 year old 570 for under 100k.
Because for many (including me) the 12C looks better and has active aero & suspension. To my eyes the 12C remains the best looking Mclaren bar the F1. The 570 does nothing for me, esp. the interior with its Tandy instrument display. The giant tachometer seals the deal. The exterior is beautiful, classy, restrained & purposeful. The 570 is tying too hard and has too much going on. The 12C has a faster top end but the 570 is a bit more reactive at lower speeds. Both amazing to drive but the 12C is more of an event.That's why I would buy a 12C over a 570 and even a 650. The 720 is growing on me though, i just wish it didn't have the Tandy display....
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