Senna or P1

[flemke]

MDL111 said:

just as fyi - there are actually 4 listed (well, one is in the UK)

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?dam...

Ah, thanks. I searched this morning, but as there is no individual category for "Senna", I had to choose an alternative. I must have chosen the wrong one.
What you have come up with I think proves my point. Contrary to what the other person posted, the cheapest one there is offered at a 200 grand premium to RRP.

[MDL111]

flemke said:

MDL111 said:

just as fyi - there are actually 4 listed (well, one is in the UK)

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?dam...

Ah, thanks. I searched this morning, but as there is no individual category for "Senna", I had to choose an alternative. I must have chosen the wrong one.
What you have come up with I think proves my point. Contrary to what the other person posted, the cheapest one there is offered at a 200 grand premium to RRP.

you need to choose "beliebig" in the model section and the put Senna into the keywords field to find them (not the most intuitive way)

[garystoybox]

flemke said:

MDL111 said:

just as fyi - there are actually 4 listed (well, one is in the UK)

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?dam...

Ah, thanks. I searched this morning, but as there is no individual category for "Senna", I had to choose an alternative. I must have chosen the wrong one.
What you have come up with I think proves my point. Contrary to what the other person posted, the cheapest one there is offered at a 200 grand premium to RRP.

As the ‘other person’ i’d only quoted what i’d seen I.e. International Collectables have a RHD one at £865k, which looking at the options is probably only a little over list. It does have a mega mileage of 390 miles though.

[isaldiri]

flemke said:

The Senna's message, aimed at Silverstone audiences, is "Please don't look at me. The only reason that I am driving something this ugly is that I really care about the driving, not the message."

One thing I find a bit strange though, the Senna is hardly any lighter than a 675 and yet there's seemingly far less emphasis on how light the 675 is. Especially on magazine reviews and it especially irks me when they start quoting 1200kg ie dry weight as the actual weight of the car.

[flemke]

garystoybox said:

flemke said:

MDL111 said:

just as fyi - there are actually 4 listed (well, one is in the UK)

https://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/search.html?dam...

Ah, thanks. I searched this morning, but as there is no individual category for "Senna", I had to choose an alternative. I must have chosen the wrong one.
What you have come up with I think proves my point. Contrary to what the other person posted, the cheapest one there is offered at a 200 grand premium to RRP.

As the ‘other person’ i’d only quoted what i’d seen I.e. International Collectables have a RHD one at £865k, which looking at the options is probably only a little over list. It does have a mega mileage of 390 miles though.

Sorry - wasn't trying to be disrespectful.
It is not clear to me whether the car in the IC advert had a RRP of 865k or is being offered at 865k. Quite a bit of the listed specification were no-cost options. For the options on that car to have been an additional £115k seems a lot.
In any case, it is one of the ugliest liveries I have seen on a Senna (having now seen about 50 I'd guess), so it would be no surprise if they're having some difficult shifting it.
Five weeks ago, a Senna sold at auction in the US for £1.13m.

[flemke]

isaldiri said:

One thing I find a bit strange though, the Senna is hardly any lighter than a 675 and yet there's seemingly far less emphasis on how light the 675 is. Especially on magazine reviews and it especially irks me when they start quoting 1200kg ie dry weight as the actual weight of the car.

True, although I felt that the LT had a lot of volume, as in air space, inside the body panels. I'm not saying that it did, and I appreciate that in terms of actual dimensions it may in fact be narrower than the Senna, but on the road it seemed wide relative to even the P1.

[Juno]

flemke said:

Much of what you say is true, although there is some speculation also.
I am unaware that Sennas are "not trading at any premium". At the moment there are three listed on PH Classifieds, the cheapest at £100k over RRP. On mobile.de there are none listed for sale. I know for a fact of some that have changed hands at six-figure premiums.
Regarding whether the Senna's performance will be surpassed in the next 36 months by 2/3 other McLarens, that is unlikely. The things that make the car faster than other McLarens around a track are its weight, its power and its aerodynamics. Although of course the car's power can and will be exceeded, there is no McLaren road car in the pipeline that will weigh as little, and none with aerodynamics as extreme as the Senna's. I expect that there will not be another McLaren that is as fast around a circuit until the successor to the P1. That car will be all-electric, cost twice as much, and will not appeal to enthusaists who prefer pistons to electrical windings.

My own guess is that, in five years' time, the Senna will trade at a higher price than the P1, for several reasons:
- P1 based on technology that, as you say, will be obsolesced.
- By that point, performance-orientated "supercars" will mostly if not entirely be hybrid or electric. Senna will be looked upon as one of the last of the great petrol-engined driver's cars.
- Indeed the Senna's looks are very much an acquired taste, but there are enough people to whom the looks appeal and, for them, the Senna is the best example of that functional, brutalist look.
- You can never, ever beat light weight in a car. P1 weighs about 25% more, and that difference is quite noticeable.

Edited by flemke on Wednesday 6th March 08:09

This encompasses most of the thoughts I had when asking the initial question.

I think the Senna will hold up as the easy to use Super Car in the years to come,pretty much jump in and go.

I cant see Mclaren wanting to create something quicker in the next few years unless they have another historic name up their sleeve to assign to it,who would want to out do Senna anyway.

Maybe for some of the other reasons quoted the 675LT could be a dark horse.

[Total loss]

isaldiri said:

Regarding the weight though, is a P1 really that heavy? - it's about 1550kg fully fuelled, the power to weight of the car is well over 550 hp/ton given it's got 900hp or something. That's not too far off the Senna (800hp, 1350kg fully fuelled).

How much lighter, if any is the P1 GTR, and in converted road legal spec?

[flemke]

Total loss said:

isaldiri said:

Regarding the weight though, is a P1 really that heavy? - it's about 1550kg fully fuelled, the power to weight of the car is well over 550 hp/ton given it's got 900hp or something. That's not too far off the Senna (800hp, 1350kg fully fuelled).

How much lighter, if any is the P1 GTR, and in converted road legal spec?

The answer to that would depend, in part, on whether a given car, after having been modified and approved for road use, was kept in its road-legal state or was changed back again.

[SteelySteve]

garystoybox said:

Neither.... the P1 suffered from terrible reliability issues, was too compromised by early hybrid config/tech, which is already outdated.... must admit though, it is far and away the best looking McLaren ever imo.
The Senna... looks only a mother could love, totally track focussed, not trading at any premium and will no doubt be surpassed performance wise by 2/3 new Mclarens in the next 36 months.
Not being anti Mclaren as I think this this will apply to most of their competitors also. I.e. I don’t think in 20 years we’ll look back and consider any of the current crop as ‘one of the best ever’. Of course I could be totally wrong!

I've had no reliability issues with my P1, Hybrid Tech is utterly mind-blowing, cruises at any speed in electric only, gives you a frankly comical boost mode with 200BHP of electric boost at your fingertip and I've never encountered a car than can go quicker or look as good, on road or track.

[Terminator X]

If I could afford one it would be this just for the blue flames alone!



TX.

[MDL111]

A P1 wouldn’t be the first car on my shopping list if I could afford it, but it would be somewhere in the top 10 - stunning looking machine imo

[ghost83]

P1 any day of the week

[WCZ]

SteelySteve said:

I've had no reliability issues with my P1, Hybrid Tech is utterly mind-blowing, cruises at any speed in electric only, gives you a frankly comical boost mode with 200BHP of electric boost at your fingertip and I've never encountered a car than can go quicker or look as good, on road or track.

the Senna is pretty close in track performance though ! esp considering it's 127hp down!

[flemke]

Very different cars; one is not an alternative to the other. The difference is similar to that between a 911 Turbo S and a GT3 RS.
P1 has more interesting technology and a broader range of abilities; Senna is rawer, quicker around a circuit.
One car is (in some liveries) beautiful, the other brutally functional.

[LotusJas]

Juno said:

I cant see Mclaren wanting to create something quicker in the next few years unless they have another historic name up their sleeve to assign to it,who would want to out do Senna anyway.

McLaren have no choice - they *have* to outperform the Senna with another model in the next 2-3 years. As the Senna will be outperformed by too many cars on track times by then e.g. Valkyrie, Aston Martin 003, AMG ONE. All of these have the lightness and aero to do so.

I'm pretty sure the rumoured P1 replacement will be targeting those 3 cars. I can't see anything outperforming Valkyrie though.

[flemke]

LotusJas said:

Juno said:

I cant see Mclaren wanting to create something quicker in the next few years unless they have another historic name up their sleeve to assign to it,who would want to out do Senna anyway.

McLaren have no choice - they *have* to outperform the Senna with another model in the next 2-3 years. As the Senna will be outperformed by too many cars on track times by then e.g. Valkyrie, Aston Martin 003, AMG ONE. All of these have the lightness and aero to do so.

I'm pretty sure the rumoured P1 replacement will be targeting those 3 cars. I can't see anything outperforming Valkyrie though.

No, McLaren don't have to produce a car to "outperform" (have a quicker lap-time than) the Senna until their next Ultimate series, which in any case will be a very different car (either hybrid or all-electric, almost certainly heavier than the Senna). Until we have representative lap-times for the Senna we won't know what the benchmark is anyhow.
As regards quicker times by the other cars you mention, the Valkyrie and One are at totally different price points from the Senna, plus the Valkyrie is a no-holds-barred track car that bears no relation to a road car apart from potentially having a reg plate stuck on it, so not really comparable. The 003 is just a concept at this point; too early to be compared with things that exist.

[SteelySteve]

Cars will always get faster (until your nanny government stops you) I think its good to own or aspire to own the cars that were game changers of their time

Then times that by their rarity and finally consider beauty, which further enhances want factor

Mclaren F1 (Gamechanger + low volume + Beautiful)
Ferrari F40 Beautiful, Gamechanger but relatively high volume
Porsche 959, Gamechanger, Low volume but more functional looking

Only my opinion but I don't think a Senna is a gamechanger as its essentially a wider, lower version of the 720s with big aero, and whilst beauty is, of course, subjective I don't think anyone really thinks its a beauty. Finally, it's not particularly low volume.

P1 - Game-changing technology of its time, beautiful and low volume. No brainer...

[WCZ]

I think the p1 wasn't a game changer as such in the company of the 918 and la ferrari.

[SteelySteve]

WCZ said:

I think the p1 wasn't a game changer as such in the company of the 918 and la ferrari.

True, they all debuted similar new tech, however, P1 is 375 units vs 918 918's and 699 La Ferrari's