What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale
Discussion
355spiderguy said:
davek_964 said:
355spiderguy said:
Are you crazy?
Don't poke the hornets nest....all the Porsche fanboys that post how they 'will' have a McLaren but only when they sort out depreciation, faults, oversupply blah blah blah will have you....
Not really been on the Porsche forum...do non Porsche owners go on there and constantly criticise Porsche?
All seems a bit strange...maybe its like pulling the pigtails of the girl at school you fancied but never had the minerals to ask out...
Thing is though, it is a reality.Don't poke the hornets nest....all the Porsche fanboys that post how they 'will' have a McLaren but only when they sort out depreciation, faults, oversupply blah blah blah will have you....
Not really been on the Porsche forum...do non Porsche owners go on there and constantly criticise Porsche?
All seems a bit strange...maybe its like pulling the pigtails of the girl at school you fancied but never had the minerals to ask out...
I could afford to buy a used McLaren. I don't believe I could afford to run one, and I would be very concerned about "liquidity" that some posters on this thread have mentioned.
I could afford a similar priced Ferrari, and I believe I could afford to run it.
I want a McLaren - far more than I want a similar Ferrari. But at the moment, it's very very unlikely I would risk buying one. The idea that only McLaren owners can comment on threads like this a tad odd - McLaren has problems with residuals partly because people like me won't buy them.
I am far from the only person in that position, and until McLaren find a solution depreciation will continue to be an issue. I think this thread has highlighted some of the key concerns - and if things do improve that can only be a good thing.
I hummed and hawwed about buying the 650 spider i have for ages...read post after post about depreciation, faults, impossible to sell and each post put me further back.
Then a good friend of mine 3 months after turning 40 had a massive stroke that they shall require full time care for the rest of their life....just devastating.
It was the lightbulb moment that life genuinely is too short for worrying about poxy stuff like not buying a car because of negatives...and lets be realistic..if you can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car, you can afford the costs that go with it.
Today, as the sun was blazing, i decided to sack off work and go out with the missus for a blast with the roof down...her first time driving and she loved it.
Back home for sunbathing in the garden and ice creams.
If you want one, just go for it. If not, be happy with what you have rather than the running costs of what you don't.
Make the most of life in the present...you have no idea what may happen to you tomorrow young grasshopper
Thanks 355spiderguy, your post sums things up my thoughts perfectly
355spiderguy said:
and lets be realistic..if you can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car, you can afford the costs that go with it.
That's often quoted, but I think for many people - including me - it's simply not true.I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 14th May 13:49
Rocketreid said:
It isn’t just McLaren though who are finding it difficult to maintain residuals in the current climate .
Yesterday a friend went into a well known Porsche dealership to enquire about selling them back his GT3 RS which he had purchased from them at the end of 2018.
Car had only done 1,700 miles since he purchased , they offered him almost £50,000 less .
Porsche are dropping just as much but it is being kept as a better secret !!!!
He must have paid too much in "overs" then. Porsche dealers are a whole other topic...Yesterday a friend went into a well known Porsche dealership to enquire about selling them back his GT3 RS which he had purchased from them at the end of 2018.
Car had only done 1,700 miles since he purchased , they offered him almost £50,000 less .
Porsche are dropping just as much but it is being kept as a better secret !!!!
davek_964 said:
355spiderguy said:
and lets be realistic..if you can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car, you can afford the costs that go with it.
That's often quoted, but I think for many people - including me - it's simply not true.I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 14th May 13:49
Maybe I don’t have big enough minerals 🤣
davek_964 said:
That's often quoted, but I think for many people - including me - it's simply not true.
I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
You have to look at this as - you are buying a £150-200K car for £100K, so you still have to plan for running costs at the higher level. And there is no performance competition for a pre-owned £100K Mclaren.I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 14th May 13:49
12pack said:
davek_964 said:
That's often quoted, but I think for many people - including me - it's simply not true.
I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
You have to look at this as - you are buying a £150-200K car for £100K, so you still have to plan for running costs at the higher level. And there is no performance competition for a pre-owned £100K Mclaren.I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 14th May 13:49
davek_964 said:
I also think the comments about 'if you can't afford the warranty, you can't afford the supercar' comments are interesting. That may well be true, but I guess the problem is there are plenty of people who could afford the initial capital outlay but not the running costs - and yet do feel they could afford the running costs of a £100k Ferrari.
But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
I'd still like one - and to be perfectly honest, I could probably afford the running costs if the depreciation was comparable to a similarly priced Ferrari.But perhaps that's comparing apples with oranges? It's often said that the McLaren's are at least a generation ahead of the rivals. Maybe that's so, and it's simply the fact that this doesn't come for free - you pay for it in the running costs, and for various reasons in depreciation too.
davek_964 said:
355spiderguy said:
and lets be realistic..if you can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car, you can afford the costs that go with it.
That's often quoted, but I think for many people - including me - it's simply not true.I can afford to spunk 6 figures on a car - with the understanding that I will get some of it back when it comes to sell. That does not mean that I have unlimited monthly outgoings - and ~£5K warranty + servicing + other running costs (tax, insurance etc) simply add up to too much.
And as I've already said - my belief is that I can afford the running costs that come with a £100k version of the competition. My perception is that I can't afford the running costs of a £100k McLaren.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 14th May 13:49
footsoldier said:
Rocketreid said:
It isn’t just McLaren though who are finding it difficult to maintain residuals in the current climate .
Yesterday a friend went into a well known Porsche dealership to enquire about selling them back his GT3 RS which he had purchased from them at the end of 2018.
Car had only done 1,700 miles since he purchased , they offered him almost £50,000 less .
Porsche are dropping just as much but it is being kept as a better secret !!!!
He must have paid too much in "overs" then. Porsche dealers are a whole other topic...Yesterday a friend went into a well known Porsche dealership to enquire about selling them back his GT3 RS which he had purchased from them at the end of 2018.
Car had only done 1,700 miles since he purchased , they offered him almost £50,000 less .
Porsche are dropping just as much but it is being kept as a better secret !!!!
Laughable Sorry
Unless he was not the first owner and paid stupid overs in the first place,circa £250k,still making the car £200k today which is still 35k over list
Edited by Juno on Tuesday 14th May 15:38
I'm hoping to prove the myth wrong or at least derail it a bit.
I've recently bought a 66 plate higher mileage 570S for way less than £90k. I aim to do 10-15k in the next 3 years in it and move on to something else. It'll be still below 50k miles when I come to sell so not way over the top to render it scrap.
With warranty, servicing/tyres probably adding up to £20k in total and I'm aiming to get £65-70k on SOR back for it so probably lose around £35-40k over the term which if I'm right with those numbers won't be too painful.
I may be completely wrong and lose £50k but as said in a recent post that life's too bloody short to worry about depreciation, I could be dead next month. When I think my new Range Rover will lose 30-40k over 3 years possibly more but I'll have waaaay more fun in a Mac.
I've recently bought a 66 plate higher mileage 570S for way less than £90k. I aim to do 10-15k in the next 3 years in it and move on to something else. It'll be still below 50k miles when I come to sell so not way over the top to render it scrap.
With warranty, servicing/tyres probably adding up to £20k in total and I'm aiming to get £65-70k on SOR back for it so probably lose around £35-40k over the term which if I'm right with those numbers won't be too painful.
I may be completely wrong and lose £50k but as said in a recent post that life's too bloody short to worry about depreciation, I could be dead next month. When I think my new Range Rover will lose 30-40k over 3 years possibly more but I'll have waaaay more fun in a Mac.
Juno said:
Fully specked GT3RS 2018 tops at £165k new,your telling me his dealer was offering £115k costing him £50k in depreciation when they are clearly selling in the market right now at £200k plus
Laughable Sorry
Unless he was not the first owner and paid stupid overs in the first place,circa £250k,still making the car £200k today which is still 35k over list
Nobody actually paid list for a GT3 RS though, nobody could just walk into a Porsche dealership and buy a brand new list price GT3 RS without having a long history of being financially buggered from buying and selling back other Porsches over years to climb up the ladder of dealer love. You try getting a new GT Porsche from a dealership cold, it simply won't happen.Laughable Sorry
Unless he was not the first owner and paid stupid overs in the first place,circa £250k,still making the car £200k today which is still 35k over list
Or... buy used and paying a ridiculous amount over list which is the position I has assumed this guy was in. Probably paid £250k for used Porsche that was listed at £165k and now being offered £200k to take it back would be my assumption. That's a £50k loss on an investment gamble rather than £50k depreciation, very different.
McLaren could learn a lot from Porsche on how to play with their customers, but I'm really glad they don't
Crazy4557 said:
I'm hoping to prove the myth wrong or at least derail it a bit.
I've recently bought a 66 plate higher mileage 570S for way less than £90k. I aim to do 10-15k in the next 3 years in it and move on to something else. It'll be still below 50k miles when I come to sell so not way over the top to render it scrap.
With warranty, servicing/tyres probably adding up to £20k in total and I'm aiming to get £65-70k on SOR back for it so probably lose around £35-40k over the term which if I'm right with those numbers won't be too painful.
I may be completely wrong and lose £50k but as said in a recent post that life's too bloody short to worry about depreciation, I could be dead next month. When I think my new Range Rover will lose 30-40k over 3 years possibly more but I'll have waaaay more fun in a Mac.
Good way of looking at it, fingers crossed it works for you. Out of interest how many miles did it have on it if you paid way less than 90k for a 570s? I've recently bought a 66 plate higher mileage 570S for way less than £90k. I aim to do 10-15k in the next 3 years in it and move on to something else. It'll be still below 50k miles when I come to sell so not way over the top to render it scrap.
With warranty, servicing/tyres probably adding up to £20k in total and I'm aiming to get £65-70k on SOR back for it so probably lose around £35-40k over the term which if I'm right with those numbers won't be too painful.
I may be completely wrong and lose £50k but as said in a recent post that life's too bloody short to worry about depreciation, I could be dead next month. When I think my new Range Rover will lose 30-40k over 3 years possibly more but I'll have waaaay more fun in a Mac.
McLaren said:
Geneva Motor Show 2016
We’ve been in business now as a company for six years, and we’ve taken a lot of time to look out into the future,’ Mike explained, standing on McLaren’s new, larger show stand. ‘We’ve redefined our business plan for the coming six years, taking us out to 2022. We’ve called it ‘Track22’ because it defines the track we’re on, into the future, and it’s a track that gives us a very profitable and sustainable business.’
Highlights of the Track22 plan include an investment of £1 billion into R&D over the coming six years, leading to the launch of 15 all-new cars or derivatives. Mike confirmed this investment will be self-funded.
McLaren will continue to focus purely on two-seater sports and supercars, and Mike revealed that a spider version of the Sports Series is already in the pipeline, to join the 570S and new 570GT. Standing alongside the McLaren 675LT Spider – which made its public debut at the show – he also said the LT badge will become a track-focused sub-brand for McLaren, with further models to come.
Finally, the plan encompasses new powertrains, with a fully electric system already in the prototype stages for evaluation in a possible future-generation Ultimate Series car. By 2022, the Track22 plan says that at least 50 per cent of McLaren cars will feature hybrid technology, following in the footsteps of the hugely successful petrol-electric McLaren P1™.
‘Above all, this Business Plan confirms that McLaren Automotive will remain proudly and fiercely independent by continuing to build the world’s finest two-seater sports and supercars, hand-crafted by our team in Woking, England.’ Mike concluded.
12 Jul 2018
Updated and expanded £1.2bn Track25 business plan includes:-
• Between now and 2025, 18 new models and derivatives to be launched
• McLaren sportscar and supercar range to be 100 per cent hybrid by 2025
• A new Ultimate Series car as a successor to the McLaren P1TM
• Evaluating “augmentation” technology to introduce step-change in driving experience
• New retail markets being evaluated
• Production to reach 6,000 mid-engined sportscars and supercars a year
It seems to me that the roots of issues faced today by owners of McLarens lie in these company statements from 2016 and 2018. For a relatively small company these are the sorts of stretch targets dreamed up by investors in order to give executives a nightmare. So rather than focussing on getting the current products right before launch onto the market, the attitude seems to be near enough is good enough and let’s crack on with the next project. Meanwhile all the unresolved issues with the current model land with the customers who also bear the time cost of money while their cars are away being fixed.
I think the difficulty for McLaren management is that they have committed to (sold the investors on ) a programme which they lack the resources to deliver properly. The result is the dynamics of the cars are world class but the detail isn’t.
I also get the impression that the McLaren management are sufficiently disinterested in their current customers to the extent that they have delegated any post sale feedback to a survey run by data mining company. If they truly wanted customer feedback and comment, then how hard would it be for one of the middle management team to make a call personally to someone who has just bought a new car. As it happens, I sent them an e mail with two pages of detailed comment and review. That was two months ago. Still waiting for acknowledgment of receipt of the original mail.
It is a pity really. The Super Series could be great cars, the basics are all there but at that price the detail needs to be as well.
Going forward my guess is McLaren management may tinker with the edges of customer support but the main business case for investors is to package the company and sell out with a decent return, with customers paying the price.
A postscript. This time of year I generally make an early season run to Switzerland. There is little traffic and wonderful D roads from Laon through the Jura to Simmental including the sublime D959. I could have taken the 720 but the weather in the Alps looked a bit marginal and I couldn’t be bothered dealing with both that and potential McLaren gremlins like being locked out or not starting so I took the Boxster 718S. This delivered 1500 miles of highly enjoyable motoring faultlessly. McLaren could learn a lesson about the detail there.
Geneva Motor Show 2016
We’ve been in business now as a company for six years, and we’ve taken a lot of time to look out into the future,’ Mike explained, standing on McLaren’s new, larger show stand. ‘We’ve redefined our business plan for the coming six years, taking us out to 2022. We’ve called it ‘Track22’ because it defines the track we’re on, into the future, and it’s a track that gives us a very profitable and sustainable business.’
Highlights of the Track22 plan include an investment of £1 billion into R&D over the coming six years, leading to the launch of 15 all-new cars or derivatives. Mike confirmed this investment will be self-funded.
McLaren will continue to focus purely on two-seater sports and supercars, and Mike revealed that a spider version of the Sports Series is already in the pipeline, to join the 570S and new 570GT. Standing alongside the McLaren 675LT Spider – which made its public debut at the show – he also said the LT badge will become a track-focused sub-brand for McLaren, with further models to come.
Finally, the plan encompasses new powertrains, with a fully electric system already in the prototype stages for evaluation in a possible future-generation Ultimate Series car. By 2022, the Track22 plan says that at least 50 per cent of McLaren cars will feature hybrid technology, following in the footsteps of the hugely successful petrol-electric McLaren P1™.
‘Above all, this Business Plan confirms that McLaren Automotive will remain proudly and fiercely independent by continuing to build the world’s finest two-seater sports and supercars, hand-crafted by our team in Woking, England.’ Mike concluded.
12 Jul 2018
Updated and expanded £1.2bn Track25 business plan includes:-
• Between now and 2025, 18 new models and derivatives to be launched
• McLaren sportscar and supercar range to be 100 per cent hybrid by 2025
• A new Ultimate Series car as a successor to the McLaren P1TM
• Evaluating “augmentation” technology to introduce step-change in driving experience
• New retail markets being evaluated
• Production to reach 6,000 mid-engined sportscars and supercars a year
It seems to me that the roots of issues faced today by owners of McLarens lie in these company statements from 2016 and 2018. For a relatively small company these are the sorts of stretch targets dreamed up by investors in order to give executives a nightmare. So rather than focussing on getting the current products right before launch onto the market, the attitude seems to be near enough is good enough and let’s crack on with the next project. Meanwhile all the unresolved issues with the current model land with the customers who also bear the time cost of money while their cars are away being fixed.
I think the difficulty for McLaren management is that they have committed to (sold the investors on ) a programme which they lack the resources to deliver properly. The result is the dynamics of the cars are world class but the detail isn’t.
I also get the impression that the McLaren management are sufficiently disinterested in their current customers to the extent that they have delegated any post sale feedback to a survey run by data mining company. If they truly wanted customer feedback and comment, then how hard would it be for one of the middle management team to make a call personally to someone who has just bought a new car. As it happens, I sent them an e mail with two pages of detailed comment and review. That was two months ago. Still waiting for acknowledgment of receipt of the original mail.
It is a pity really. The Super Series could be great cars, the basics are all there but at that price the detail needs to be as well.
Going forward my guess is McLaren management may tinker with the edges of customer support but the main business case for investors is to package the company and sell out with a decent return, with customers paying the price.
A postscript. This time of year I generally make an early season run to Switzerland. There is little traffic and wonderful D roads from Laon through the Jura to Simmental including the sublime D959. I could have taken the 720 but the weather in the Alps looked a bit marginal and I couldn’t be bothered dealing with both that and potential McLaren gremlins like being locked out or not starting so I took the Boxster 718S. This delivered 1500 miles of highly enjoyable motoring faultlessly. McLaren could learn a lesson about the detail there.
Edited by lowndes on Tuesday 14th May 16:25
Edited by lowndes on Tuesday 14th May 16:26
Juno said:
Fully specked GT3RS 2018 tops at £165k new,your telling me his dealer was offering £115k costing him £50k in depreciation when they are clearly selling in the market right now at £200k plus
Laughable Sorry
Unless he was not the first owner and paid stupid overs in the first place,circa £250k,still making the car £200k today which is still 35k over list
Laughable may be but true !!!Laughable Sorry
Unless he was not the first owner and paid stupid overs in the first place,circa £250k,still making the car £200k today which is still 35k over list
Edited by Juno on Tuesday 14th May 15:38
And yes he paid well north of £200,000 as you needed to in order to purchase one last year . In my opinion completely ridiculous but there are alot of GT owners thinking there car is immune but definitely not so particularly those that were less than sensible by buying over list
Similarly another local bought from same dealer and had to pay £178,000 last October for 991.1 GT3RS
Certainly not worth anywhere near that money now,
No doubt if it had been a Turbo losses may be greater ,
Porsche’s are dropping by large margins but the dealers are to some degree protecting this far better than McLaren dealers are but still losses are losses
Rocketreid said:
Porsche’s are dropping by large margins but the dealers are to some degree protecting this far better than McLaren dealers are but still losses are losses
I agree with your summation, and tbh for the last couple of years people must be a bit mad to pay overs for the 911 GT's.. These aren't rare cars, in fact the GT3 was built in more numbers than any other 911 at the time!I suspect once the novelty has worn off, plus the lack of 'free' motoring, these'll depreciate in line with similar cars built in those quantities..
Rocketreid said:
Laughable may be but true !!!
And yes he paid well north of £200,000 as you needed to in order to purchase one last year . In my opinion completely ridiculous but there are alot of GT owners thinking there car is immune but definitely not so particularly those that were less than sensible by buying over list
Similarly another local bought from same dealer and had to pay £178,000 last October for 991.1 GT3RS
Certainly not worth anywhere near that money now,
No doubt if it had been a Turbo losses may be greater ,
Porsche’s are dropping by large margins but the dealers are to some degree protecting this far better than McLaren dealers are but still losses are losses
Talk about apples and oranges.And yes he paid well north of £200,000 as you needed to in order to purchase one last year . In my opinion completely ridiculous but there are alot of GT owners thinking there car is immune but definitely not so particularly those that were less than sensible by buying over list
Similarly another local bought from same dealer and had to pay £178,000 last October for 991.1 GT3RS
Certainly not worth anywhere near that money now,
No doubt if it had been a Turbo losses may be greater ,
Porsche’s are dropping by large margins but the dealers are to some degree protecting this far better than McLaren dealers are but still losses are losses
You simply cannot compare a massive over payment on a flipped car - that a dealer wouldn't even have sold him - and the resulting loss when trying to sell back to a dealer, to the depreciation discussed on this thread.
Especially when one of the causes of depreciation is the complete opposite - market flooded with new cars and massive discounts from list price!
Not sure how anybody could think paying way over for a .2 RS was an investment strategy , you only had to look at the .1 RS to see where the overs prices ended up going after a couple of yrs. Great cars no doubt but I’d never pay silly overs and I’m not in with any Porsche dealers so prob never gonna own one ...In any case you’re looking at 720s cash at those levels again it makes the McLaren quite compelling .
GT4RS said:
Good way of looking at it, fingers crossed it works for you. Out of interest how many miles did it have on it if you paid way less than 90k for a 570s?
34k. Came with a 1 year Mac warranty and was for sale via MacGlasgow so faultless condition and just had major service/updates when it arrived. Nothing to spend for 12 months in theory.This is a good constructive thread and if anyone at McLaren gets to see it, it should help steer them in the right direction.
This video covers off some of the points raised. It was uploaded today.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JOcg0TXBY&feat...
This video covers off some of the points raised. It was uploaded today.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2-JOcg0TXBY&feat...
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