What,Can and Should Mclaren be Doing About Protecting Resale
Discussion
The Surveyor said:
Juno said:
…….991.2 batch 2 GT3RS WP with ITB's....
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?…. and people say the McLaren line up is confusing
Hold on this was the Mclaren what can they do,let’s get back on track!!!
Won’t be an issue for Mclaren going forward as with turbo engines it’s much easier to work around the problems!
Just realised that’s a Mclaren benefit as surely all performance cars will probably be forced to go turbo at some point!
P must be bearing the end of the power output for reliable NA
Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 10:06
isaldiri said:
The Surveyor said:
Now I know that the '991' is a reference to the last 911 model, and that the '.2' reference means its the second version of that 991, and that the 'batch 2' is the second issue of that second version..... and that the 'WP' is Weissach Pack option on the RS which is effectively a 'track pack' option ticked on the option list. But what is / are ITB's ?
Just the newest latest must have thing for a GT Porsche to make people with that feature able to be smug and sneer at prior cars without by being able to state it obsoletes the older engine.For all that Mclaren are accused of having always turning out new models that supercede old ones, not even they had the same model effectively upgraded halfway through a production run. they would be slaughtered for killing residuals on the earlier owners if they had done so.....
The Surveyor said:
nw942 said:
I'm sure they've still got plenty of ideas to increase power whilst meeting emissions.
But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?
Porsche already make plenty of turbocharged 911's, not just the 'Turbo' and the GT2 but everything else in the range is forced-induction with the exception of the 'GT3' versions, and I'll put my hat on the 992 GT3 having a turbo too. They won't do a hybrid, but they will do an all-electric 911 in the very near future IMHO.But if something like mild-hybrid gives them the performance gains at a lower cost they will surely go down that path?
Regardless, the resale value of the 911 isn't linked to performance, adding performance doesn't matter to the investors, it's all about the mystique of their GT cars, and then letting that illusion filter down to their ordinary models. On paper, the GT3 RS are only marginally quicker than the cooking 992 Carrera 4s (0-60 of 3.2 against 3.4, and 193mph against 190mph), and all are trounced by the Turbo S (0-60 2.9 & 205mph), yet only the GT versions are seen as 'investments' with the other cars suffering almost normal depreciation. The Porsche marketing machine has convinced buyers that the 911 you really want isn't the fastest accelerating, isn't the one with the highest top speed, isn't the one with the best equipment, isn't the one with 4-seat practicality, isn't the one you can use everyday, its the GT3's, the special one, the unobtainable one.
It doesn't matter how much better the 600LT is than a GT3 RS, if everybody who wants a 600LT can get one, and can potentially get one at a discount there will never be flattening of that depreciation curve, simple supply & demand economics. McLaren need to engineer increased demand, they need to sharpen up their marketing and they need to get to a place where there are more buyers wanting their cars than there are cars. Its the same problem Aston Martin have, Bentley has, Rolls Royce has, Lotus has, BMW has... it's not an exclusively McLaren problem despite what the OP would suggest.
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
MDL111 said:
Cheapest 650S is at a touch under 140k euros and cheapest 991 RS is also at c 140k euros. So both quite a bit below list (RS probably 50k and the 650 I am not sure but assume 100k ish) - not great but the difference is no longer as substantial as it was in the past. I wonder if German McL Dealers are better than their UK equivalents in terms of buying back cars/ servicing etc
A fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would struggle to get to £150k NEW with all the toys,a friend of mine specked to about £153 but that included PTS.I’ll also take a punt the 140k RS is a left hooker!
Cheapest RS I can see on here is £150k still over its oringinal list price, majority of them are £160k-£180k which is still 10k-30k over list for a 2015/2016 car!
What are you looking at Man and where are you getting your figures from
Edited by Juno on Friday 17th May 19:24
rich12 said:
Just adding my bit as someone who deals with most 'supercar' brands on a daily basis.
McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
That doesn’t read well McLaren in my opinion are the worst for looking after their customers and reliability overall.
Our 720s is an 18 plate with 8k miles on it and having just been in for a service last Friday, somehow it came back from them full of faults.
The aircon doesn't work anymore, keep getting a power steering fault (which is truly awful as the power steering stops working for 10 seconds or so), suspension fault keeps popping up. Of course this is probably a coincidence but trying to get it booked back in again is proving to be a nightmare.
Our 570s has 25k on it and the build quality is appalling. There's a horrible rattling noise coming from the dash at low speeds but they aren't willing to actually try and find the fault. We bought the car at year old and part of the deal was an extra years warranty yet we've just had a 2 week battle with them over this as they wouldn't even accept the fact it was on the invoice.
I love the cars and what they're capable of but McLaren themselves are awful in comparison to lambo/ferrari/Aston Martin and Bentley.
The fact the cars lose so much more in value is a massive factor when considering replacements.
sjc said:
It beggars belief though, that a premium brand company pitching itself where it is actually finds itself having to listen to an owners club to get the basics and bleedin’obvious of customer expectations and service right .
+1 It should be as you sayHowever
The issue IMO is that there is a volume push at all costs with the people responsible having previously been in the stack em high sell em cheap volume car manufacturing market.
These people are not die hard super-car enthusiasts, they don't have a foggy about the passion or slightest inherent DNA in their person to understand it or the owners!
fridaypassion said:
If you buy smartly I don't actually think in the current market a 570 is that bad.
I've had a pretty good offer on a pre reg which may well come off that would hemorrhage less than a 991 gt3 has seen in the last year and well under the bruising deprecation of a 991.1 gt3 rs over the list 18 months (100k!)
It's a bit unfortunate that Mclaren seems to have become a byword for deprecation as all the marques get it. In a funny way Porsche actually generate it on purpose for people that are willing to pay overs for their cars (a phenomenon that's probably coming to an end) Porsche don't really limit production so much any more but they do have artificially low RRPs on the gt cars which creates the strong residuals. They have a huge range of other models to make their margins on though of course.
Other than stopping making so many there's not really much Mc can do. The one thing that will firm up this market is when the public gets more comfortable with them. It seems to me as an outside observer that generally the cars as are mechanically very good but have electrical issues and patchy dealer service. When you look at Porsche they have very serious mechanical issues and pretty awful dealers so really which is the smart buy?
One practical thing they could do is just drop the pretense of te RRPs and just lower them to the realistic prices and then adopt a no discounting policy. That way everyone knows where they are. Currently its a bit like bitcoin you just don't know what the value is when you are shopping for new or used which creates a bit of apprehension.
As far as I am aware a fully specked 991.1 GT3RS would have been £150k new so I can't see any depreciation at all,I have a new 991 GT3RS coming and that's only £179k with WP I've had a pretty good offer on a pre reg which may well come off that would hemorrhage less than a 991 gt3 has seen in the last year and well under the bruising deprecation of a 991.1 gt3 rs over the list 18 months (100k!)
It's a bit unfortunate that Mclaren seems to have become a byword for deprecation as all the marques get it. In a funny way Porsche actually generate it on purpose for people that are willing to pay overs for their cars (a phenomenon that's probably coming to an end) Porsche don't really limit production so much any more but they do have artificially low RRPs on the gt cars which creates the strong residuals. They have a huge range of other models to make their margins on though of course.
Other than stopping making so many there's not really much Mc can do. The one thing that will firm up this market is when the public gets more comfortable with them. It seems to me as an outside observer that generally the cars as are mechanically very good but have electrical issues and patchy dealer service. When you look at Porsche they have very serious mechanical issues and pretty awful dealers so really which is the smart buy?
One practical thing they could do is just drop the pretense of te RRPs and just lower them to the realistic prices and then adopt a no discounting policy. That way everyone knows where they are. Currently its a bit like bitcoin you just don't know what the value is when you are shopping for new or used which creates a bit of apprehension.
Current 991 GT3's are still over list??? even .1's are close to list for a five year old car!
Your quote sounds like a Donald Trump quote "If I say it the World will believe it"
As for serious mechanical problems Porsche put a no quibble 10 year guarantee on the .1 engine problem,Mc could learn a lot from that!
A friend of mine just lost £50k on a 650 Spyder and 1500 miles over 18 months,Impressed he is not
I think the 675 could be a good buy right now,it will be interesting to see how it holds up but definitely a very special car either way
Edited by Juno on Monday 3rd June 22:32
Mark-C said:
The Surveyor said:
Juno said:
…….
A friend of mine just lost £50k on a 650 Spyder and 1500 miles over 18 months,Impressed he is not
…..
Well he should have driven it more then shouldn't he. A friend of mine just lost £50k on a 650 Spyder and 1500 miles over 18 months,Impressed he is not
…..
it up next time Edited by Juno on Tuesday 4th June 21:54
ferdi p said:
They do need to sort it. Was in a Mac dealer last week, the part-ex bids to 570 owners who want to trade up to a spider or 720 meant they were 40/50k down in 12 months! They told me they were struggling to get deals closed.
If you paid 140k for a 570s in 2018 you'll now see a trade bid of 90/95k.
If you'd bought a 458 for 140k last year & sold it to the trade this year, you'd lose dealer margin,10/15k ish...
Ferrari are struggling to shift 488's too but I'm sorry to say that Macs are depreciating at a level that will stop owners being loyal to the brand.
I really want a 720 but not sure I wanna do 50k + in 12/18 months!
If they are the part ex bids and I'm guessing a decent spec 720 Spyder is circa £260K then that's a BIG CHUNK of change to find If you paid 140k for a 570s in 2018 you'll now see a trade bid of 90/95k.
If you'd bought a 458 for 140k last year & sold it to the trade this year, you'd lose dealer margin,10/15k ish...
Ferrari are struggling to shift 488's too but I'm sorry to say that Macs are depreciating at a level that will stop owners being loyal to the brand.
I really want a 720 but not sure I wanna do 50k + in 12/18 months!
Plus you will have to brace yourself for another 100k loss 18/24 months down the road on the Spyder
I think you need to be stinking rich or certified insane to do it
CyCy said:
I absolutely sympathise with this. I've been susceptible to this as well.
It's a case, at this point, of them trying different strategies and working out what works. FWIW, if you call their bluff, you will have gotten a 600LT.
This, in all fairness, is what Ferrari did with the 812. I was first told I couldn't have one. Then I was told I could have one if I bought a 488. Now I can buy one for list.
The entire market is down at the moment, and it's just really fking unfortunate timing for McLaren, trying to play these games.
The only company I've dealt with that didn't play stupid games with their "limited edition" cars was Lamborghini, and their SVJ. Straight up told me £20k initial deposit and we can try to get you a car. No promises, but it's very possible.
And, I honestly don't think McLaren need to do this. This whole "buy A for B" ste. But their investors are another bag.
Personally, had I been in charge, probably do 500 of each LT. All LTs will come in 2 flavors, 500 each. The 600LT, the 750LT, the whatever LT. All numbered.
Then, the rest of the cars are built to order. No stock stuff. Not for the moment. Lead times will suck. Cashflow will take a bit of a hit. But residuals will be absolutely amazing. There is a car for anyone that wants one.. If they'll wait long enough. 2-3 months isn't horrid. I'd also open the spec room at MTC for anyone speccing their car, should they be inclined to do so. Not just Ultimate series customers. Those lot can have another room with hookers and blackjack.
Then again I'm a software nerd with absolutely 0 grasp on reality when it comes to running a car business. Just another dreamer..
It would be the ULTIMATE Hookers and Black Jack Room It's a case, at this point, of them trying different strategies and working out what works. FWIW, if you call their bluff, you will have gotten a 600LT.
This, in all fairness, is what Ferrari did with the 812. I was first told I couldn't have one. Then I was told I could have one if I bought a 488. Now I can buy one for list.
The entire market is down at the moment, and it's just really f
king unfortunate timing for McLaren, trying to play these games. The only company I've dealt with that didn't play stupid games with their "limited edition" cars was Lamborghini, and their SVJ. Straight up told me £20k initial deposit and we can try to get you a car. No promises, but it's very possible.
And, I honestly don't think McLaren need to do this. This whole "buy A for B" s
te. But their investors are another bag. Personally, had I been in charge, probably do 500 of each LT. All LTs will come in 2 flavors, 500 each. The 600LT, the 750LT, the whatever LT. All numbered.
Then, the rest of the cars are built to order. No stock stuff. Not for the moment. Lead times will suck. Cashflow will take a bit of a hit. But residuals will be absolutely amazing. There is a car for anyone that wants one.. If they'll wait long enough. 2-3 months isn't horrid. I'd also open the spec room at MTC for anyone speccing their car, should they be inclined to do so. Not just Ultimate series customers. Those lot can have another room with hookers and blackjack.
Then again I'm a software nerd with absolutely 0 grasp on reality when it comes to running a car business. Just another dreamer..
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