Living with a McLaren 650s Spider as an (almost) daily
Discussion
davek_964 said:
he told me that the sound deadening foam wasn't present in the 650 - that came later (570s etc.).
Well, I've tamped it down myself on my 650s' tyres - its on the MC1 Mcl-specified tyres for sure. All my cars have the slipping/skipping on the driveway on the fronts - AstonV12V / Tesla (255 section), ipace (245). Your new Michelins will probably do this again after they've been driven on a bit.
davek_964 said:
The surface isn't different - it's most noticeable outside my house and my g/f's when I'm reversing off the drive.
I had this skipping when reversing off my driveway on full lock. The driveway is on a steep'ish incline, requiring more effort from the tyres than what would normally be required on a flat surface. Only noticed it when I moved into the new house (previous driveway wasn't on an incline). You may also find that the inside edge of one tyre, and the outside edge of the opposite tyre wears down. I now turn the car around on the flatter part of the driveway, pulling out front first.
MAC 720S said:
I had this skipping when reversing off my driveway on full lock. The driveway is on a steep'ish incline, requiring more effort from the tyres than what would normally be required on a flat surface. Only noticed it when I moved into the new house (previous driveway wasn't on an incline). You may also find that the inside edge of one tyre, and the outside edge of the opposite tyre wears down. I now turn the car around on the flatter part of the driveway, pulling out front first.
Its a big topic on the Mercedes forum...certainly anything with 19'' front wheels.A couple of years ago i bought a brand new V250 AMG xlwb for towing the tipping trailer...it has 19'' wheels.
It came with Conti sport contact 5's which were ok but i always feel contis wear quick especially in the exact way you mentioned on the outer edge even though tracking bang on...however, no 'crabbing'.
Changed all 4 at the same time against my better judgement for P-Zeros...what a mistake. It was this time last year and immediate crabbing on full lock...not a hint of that the previous colder winter on the contis...hell...they even did it there in the summer months.
I binned them with prob 5mm tread all round. This time went with...'don't laugh at the back' Uniroyal Rainsport 3. What a revelation...very quiet, unbelievably grippy in the rain, fantastic in the dry and last week with -4 here not a hint of crabbing on full lock. As a bonus they are showing no wear whatsoever either.
My opinion it is due to rigidity of the sidewall on 19'' wheels or bigger fitted with 40 profile or less tyres and Pirelli, which i have always though have sucked, proved they suck even more than i had thought possible.
davek_964 said:
My driveway is flat. It also happened very badly when I was parking the car at Costco to get the tyres.
It was very severe, and since the weather cooled down happened even when not on full lock.
Its called the Ackermann Effect, its not related to tyres but all down to the suspension geometry. Different tyres will mask the effect but the tyres won't be the cause.It was very severe, and since the weather cooled down happened even when not on full lock.
I have it on the 570s and I just think its the way McLaren have set things up when the steering is at full lock.
The Surveyor said:
Its called the Ackermann Effect, its not related to tyres but all down to the suspension geometry. Different tyres will mask the effect but the tyres won't be the cause.
I have it on the 570s and I just think its the way McLaren have set things up when the steering is at full lock.
Exactly what I was told when questioning Alfa with regards to the Corsa's on my QV.I have it on the 570s and I just think its the way McLaren have set things up when the steering is at full lock.
I personally hated the corsa's, only good in warm dry weather & we don't get much of that in the UK! Car was transformed when switching to MPSPS, no skipping, great in cold/wet weather & last way longer!
I'll definitely change them on the 720 soon too, great tyre at a great price.
Theoretically less to do with wheel size, and more to do with tyre width and the sporting intentions of the drive.
Most "normal" cars use close to perfect Ackerman geometry (front tie-rods angled to meet at the centre of the rear axle) so that the outer wheels angle in more at full lock. But this causes problems in performance driving at speed especially while apexing.
Certainly Macs with their lightly loaded fronts are set up with more neutral geometry - hence the effect at low speed.
Most "normal" cars use close to perfect Ackerman geometry (front tie-rods angled to meet at the centre of the rear axle) so that the outer wheels angle in more at full lock. But this causes problems in performance driving at speed especially while apexing.
Certainly Macs with their lightly loaded fronts are set up with more neutral geometry - hence the effect at low speed.
12pack said:
Theoretically less to do with wheel size, and more to do with tyre width and the sporting intentions of the drive.
Most "normal" cars use close to perfect Ackerman geometry (front tie-rods angled to meet at the centre of the rear axle) so that the outer wheels angle in more at full lock. But this causes problems in performance driving at speed especially while apexing.
Certainly Macs with their lightly loaded fronts are set up with more neutral geometry - hence the effect at low speed.
In the case of Mercedes, for instance a GLC 43 AMG would 'crab' if fitted with the optional 19'' wheels and narrower 40 sidewall, whereas the exact same car that remained on 18'' wheels with larger sidewall did not 'crab' at all.Most "normal" cars use close to perfect Ackerman geometry (front tie-rods angled to meet at the centre of the rear axle) so that the outer wheels angle in more at full lock. But this causes problems in performance driving at speed especially while apexing.
Certainly Macs with their lightly loaded fronts are set up with more neutral geometry - hence the effect at low speed.
It caused a pile of bother and for a while Mercedes stopped delivering the cars with Pirelli and went to Hankook and Conti's...might of been coincidental but lots of customers were trying to reject and MB were replacing tyres for free to those that shouted the loudest.
I have not changed any geometry set up and the crabbing that only appeared with Pirelli replacements vanished again when i binned them.
650spider said:
In the case of Mercedes, for instance a GLC 43 AMG would 'crab' if fitted with the optional 19'' wheels and narrower 40 sidewall, whereas the exact same car that remained on 18'' wheels with larger sidewall did not 'crab' at all.
It caused a pile of bother and for a while Mercedes stopped delivering the cars with Pirelli and went to Hankook and Conti's...might of been coincidental but lots of customers were trying to reject and MB were replacing tyres for free to those that shouted the loudest.
I have not changed any geometry set up and the crabbing that only appeared with Pirelli replacements vanished again when i binned them.
Interesting. The fact is your inner/outer wheels then still have to cover different distances and the only explanation I can offer (assuming we are talking about the same surface) is that the Michelins are somehow sliding more continuously in such a way as not to be felt at the steering wheel. Perhaps because of the inner sidewall stiffness or tread design.It caused a pile of bother and for a while Mercedes stopped delivering the cars with Pirelli and went to Hankook and Conti's...might of been coincidental but lots of customers were trying to reject and MB were replacing tyres for free to those that shouted the loudest.
I have not changed any geometry set up and the crabbing that only appeared with Pirelli replacements vanished again when i binned them.
Bispal said:
davek_964 said:
I was intending to try and get all the issues sorted at the service in December - but the list is now a bit long, and I don't want them keeping the car over Christmas / new year if I can avoid it. So I've mailed them with a list of faults this morning, and asked when I can drop the car off.
Hopefully, they can fix :
- The climate system which appears to have become sentient and no longer does what I want
- The driver side mirror which has now failed to fold out 4 times in total
- The headlight which seems to have been left slightly loose after being adjusted the last time they had it
- The fact that a candle would throw more light than high beam
- The rattle from the passenger door
Etc. etc.
3 of those items are connected to the doors. Quite common for door related elements to fail, especially AC due to the 'slam' required to close the doors. Can't remember if you have soft close fitted or not? If you don't then recommend you do, its £1k well spent. If You do have it then its obviously something else. Good luck getting the bits 'n' bibs sorted.Hopefully, they can fix :
- The climate system which appears to have become sentient and no longer does what I want
- The driver side mirror which has now failed to fold out 4 times in total
- The headlight which seems to have been left slightly loose after being adjusted the last time they had it
- The fact that a candle would throw more light than high beam
- The rattle from the passenger door
Etc. etc.
https://youtu.be/DcdqenSiJpc
Car has been at McLaren Ascot for just over a week - but it's not been drama free. I gave them a list of issues with the car - some of which I didn't really expect a solution (e.g. the IRIS) - but I wanted them to be aware:
- No sound from IRIS (happened twice) : Software is out of date and will be updated
- Traction control seems very poor : Software is out of date and will be updated
- Passenger headlight loose : I think she said the bracket was bent rather than not being tight - but in any case, will be fixed
- Headlight range : I don't think this will be resolved. She said they would check the beam once they fix the bracket on the passenger side. I asked her to check that they're not checking the headlight setting when the car is on lift (the cars always seem to be on lift when I've seen them moved at Ascot). She was sure they weren't but would check. I also asked her to get one of the technicians to drive the car down a dark road - I appreciate that's difficult with traffic, but I really don't care whether it is "in spec" adjustment wise - I can't see where I'm going!
- Driver side mirror fails to fold out : Not reproduced so far, so no solution.
- Climate system not working properly. Now, this became an interesting one.
I was called with a status update at the end of Wednesday last week - I was told the status of the IRIS, traction and loose headlight - but was told the climate issue hadn't been checked yet. However - during the call, I was asked whether the battery had gone flat (or nearly flat) in my ownership. It hasn't - it hasn't even got close (the only time I've seen it below 90% is when I collected it from Ascot after they had it for a week in October). This thread is evidence of how often the car gets used, and how unlikely it is that the car has been left long enough for a flat battery.
At the end of Thursday, I got another call - the climate problem is due to water in the climate module / connector - and water ingress is not covered by the extended warranty. Now, the questions about the flat battery the previous day make sense.......
Cost of new climate module fitted : £1,325 (inc).
At this point, I admit I was fairly furious. The only time the windows have been open during the rain in my ownership is when I've been getting into / out of the car. So either the roof is leaking above the climate unit (which is in the door) - and I've never noticed (unlikely) or the water ingress was already present when I bought the car. The most likely time the battery would have gone flat is the period from April to August when this car was sitting at Ascot with the use presumably limited to test drives. It also meant that the expensive comprehensive warranty was still leaving me with a significant bill - £1,325 may not be big bucks on a supercar - but it is taking the piss on a car I'd owned 12 weeks before the fault occurred, and with a very expensive warranty.
I sent an email explaining that I did not believe the water ingress had happened during my ownership and under CRA 2015 I believed the liability was theirs.
Initially, the approached McLaren for goodwill - but when that was refused, they agreed to cover the cost. I'm grateful that they did so, and thanked them for that - but I still believe that legally, this is what they should have done.
Given that the climate module is in the drivers door - and the drivers mirror has issues - I asked them to confirm that water ingress wasn't the problem there. They have checked and assure me it's not - although if the windows really have dropped at some point (they say they've checked the roof and it doesn't leak) it does make me wonder if the electrics in the passenger door (also has some climate control) is a ticking time bomb.
The climate module has been ordered, and is expected on Wednesday - so the earliest I was likely to get the car back would be Wednesday, more likely the end of the week. Since it was due to be serviced on the 16th anyway, it seemed pointless collecting it without the service being done - they will roll this forwards and do it now. How it will fit into their workshop schedule I'm not sure, so don't know if I'll have the car back by the weekend - I hope so, since I was planning to use it for the Sunday Service at Thruxton.
But if it's not ready, I could use the 360 - which I did take out for a drive on Friday and really enjoyed. At that point, it was still unclear whether I was facing a bill for the climate system, and I must admit - while driving the 360 I was wondering why I'd even bought a McLaren. In my last update I said how much I was loving the car - it definitely has potential to be brilliant. But the fact that it's always got something wrong with it - and particularly if I'm going to have to pay for some of those issues - is a very big negative.
I've said it before, but I will say it even more strongly now - it has until Spring to start behaving itself. Some people have dead reliable cars so I know it's possible. Some people seem to think that I'm expecting too much and these are simply the character of a hand built supercar - well, if that's the case, then this is not the car for me. Occasional foibles I can live with. Repeated / almost constant faults - and these are faults - I can't. If that's what life with a car like this is expected to be, I will sell it in the Spring and look elsewhere.
But I really do hope that isn't what happens.
- No sound from IRIS (happened twice) : Software is out of date and will be updated
- Traction control seems very poor : Software is out of date and will be updated
- Passenger headlight loose : I think she said the bracket was bent rather than not being tight - but in any case, will be fixed
- Headlight range : I don't think this will be resolved. She said they would check the beam once they fix the bracket on the passenger side. I asked her to check that they're not checking the headlight setting when the car is on lift (the cars always seem to be on lift when I've seen them moved at Ascot). She was sure they weren't but would check. I also asked her to get one of the technicians to drive the car down a dark road - I appreciate that's difficult with traffic, but I really don't care whether it is "in spec" adjustment wise - I can't see where I'm going!
- Driver side mirror fails to fold out : Not reproduced so far, so no solution.
- Climate system not working properly. Now, this became an interesting one.
I was called with a status update at the end of Wednesday last week - I was told the status of the IRIS, traction and loose headlight - but was told the climate issue hadn't been checked yet. However - during the call, I was asked whether the battery had gone flat (or nearly flat) in my ownership. It hasn't - it hasn't even got close (the only time I've seen it below 90% is when I collected it from Ascot after they had it for a week in October). This thread is evidence of how often the car gets used, and how unlikely it is that the car has been left long enough for a flat battery.
At the end of Thursday, I got another call - the climate problem is due to water in the climate module / connector - and water ingress is not covered by the extended warranty. Now, the questions about the flat battery the previous day make sense.......
Cost of new climate module fitted : £1,325 (inc).
At this point, I admit I was fairly furious. The only time the windows have been open during the rain in my ownership is when I've been getting into / out of the car. So either the roof is leaking above the climate unit (which is in the door) - and I've never noticed (unlikely) or the water ingress was already present when I bought the car. The most likely time the battery would have gone flat is the period from April to August when this car was sitting at Ascot with the use presumably limited to test drives. It also meant that the expensive comprehensive warranty was still leaving me with a significant bill - £1,325 may not be big bucks on a supercar - but it is taking the piss on a car I'd owned 12 weeks before the fault occurred, and with a very expensive warranty.
I sent an email explaining that I did not believe the water ingress had happened during my ownership and under CRA 2015 I believed the liability was theirs.
Initially, the approached McLaren for goodwill - but when that was refused, they agreed to cover the cost. I'm grateful that they did so, and thanked them for that - but I still believe that legally, this is what they should have done.
Given that the climate module is in the drivers door - and the drivers mirror has issues - I asked them to confirm that water ingress wasn't the problem there. They have checked and assure me it's not - although if the windows really have dropped at some point (they say they've checked the roof and it doesn't leak) it does make me wonder if the electrics in the passenger door (also has some climate control) is a ticking time bomb.
The climate module has been ordered, and is expected on Wednesday - so the earliest I was likely to get the car back would be Wednesday, more likely the end of the week. Since it was due to be serviced on the 16th anyway, it seemed pointless collecting it without the service being done - they will roll this forwards and do it now. How it will fit into their workshop schedule I'm not sure, so don't know if I'll have the car back by the weekend - I hope so, since I was planning to use it for the Sunday Service at Thruxton.
But if it's not ready, I could use the 360 - which I did take out for a drive on Friday and really enjoyed. At that point, it was still unclear whether I was facing a bill for the climate system, and I must admit - while driving the 360 I was wondering why I'd even bought a McLaren. In my last update I said how much I was loving the car - it definitely has potential to be brilliant. But the fact that it's always got something wrong with it - and particularly if I'm going to have to pay for some of those issues - is a very big negative.
I've said it before, but I will say it even more strongly now - it has until Spring to start behaving itself. Some people have dead reliable cars so I know it's possible. Some people seem to think that I'm expecting too much and these are simply the character of a hand built supercar - well, if that's the case, then this is not the car for me. Occasional foibles I can live with. Repeated / almost constant faults - and these are faults - I can't. If that's what life with a car like this is expected to be, I will sell it in the Spring and look elsewhere.
But I really do hope that isn't what happens.
Edited by davek_964 on Tuesday 3rd December 07:25
I'm glad that the dealer saw some sense and you weren't left with that bill.
I also don't understand the people who say these niggled are part of supercar ownership; these are fundamentally basic things a £15k VW can get right in terms of water ingress, climate control and having a UI that will work properly. Technology and automation is too good these days for there to be any reason why the basics of a car can't be executed properly.
I also don't understand the people who say these niggled are part of supercar ownership; these are fundamentally basic things a £15k VW can get right in terms of water ingress, climate control and having a UI that will work properly. Technology and automation is too good these days for there to be any reason why the basics of a car can't be executed properly.
davek_964 said:
- Traction control seems very poor : Software is out of date and will be updated
This kind of BS seems to be a Mclaren mantra, either needs software "update" or needs "calibrating"...... what a load of b
ks, the PASM/TC in my 997 is 10 years old and works prefectly in handling 900NM, never needed updating or calibrating.TB993tt said:
davek_964 said:
- Traction control seems very poor : Software is out of date and will be updated
This kind of BS seems to be a Mclaren mantra, either needs software "update" or needs "calibrating"...... what a load of bks, the PASM/TC in my 997 is 10 years old and works prefectly in handling 900NM, never needed updating or calibrating.I think my 360 is "better" - if I have sport mode off, you simply cannot spin the wheels. With sport mode on, you can - which is fair enough.
The 650 doesn't seem quite the same. Even in winter mode, if I simply plant my foot to the floor - it will spin the wheels. If I accelerate "sensibly" - but perhaps a bit too fast - it seems it will kick in and prevent wheel spin.
I haven't really tried the "sensible but slightly too fast" acceleration in normal mode yet but I suspect it probably would work - and I guess Sport would allow more wheel spin.
I don't know if it's realistic for me to expect that (even in winter mode) if I stick my foot down with the turbos spinning that it can really stop significant wheel spin?
(I'm not really expecting the software update to change anything)
I do hope that McLaren read these posts.
And I do hope they pay attention to the likely response of the many who watch without feeling the need to contribute.
I could seriously consider a 650S with a high mileage, I did not think that the cost of the extended warranty was too expensive for the peace of mind that it conveys, but when it doesn't cover a water-damaged ECU when I assume there is no evidence of the car being driven in unreasonably deep water ... Shame on McLaren.
How many other connectors are not covered ? Oh dear . McLaren.
And I do hope they pay attention to the likely response of the many who watch without feeling the need to contribute.
I could seriously consider a 650S with a high mileage, I did not think that the cost of the extended warranty was too expensive for the peace of mind that it conveys, but when it doesn't cover a water-damaged ECU when I assume there is no evidence of the car being driven in unreasonably deep water ... Shame on McLaren.
How many other connectors are not covered ? Oh dear . McLaren.
TB993tt said:
This kind of BS seems to be a Mclaren mantra, either needs software "update" or needs "calibrating"...... what a load of bks, the PASM/TC in my 997 is 10 years old and works prefectly in handling 900NM, never needed updating or calibrating.
Is there a small chance that Porsche have been producing sports cars etc. longer than McLaren and therefore they've had more time to develop their offering? ks, the PASM/TC in my 997 is 10 years old and works prefectly in handling 900NM, never needed updating or calibrating.Regardless considering the complexity of modern cars, software updating will become more common IMHO as the pressure for quicker time to market results in shortened development cycles.
Actually, I can kind of understand that water damage may not be covered - after all, if I leave the roof open in the rain it's not really a fault of the car.
What bothered me was that initially it seemed to be assumed it was my fault - and the fact that I was told the climate problem hadn't been looked at when I was called on Wednesday, when the fact that they asked about the battery makes that seem rather unlikely to be true.
But to be fair to Ascot, when I presented my argument they tried McLaren first and then agreed to cover it themselves with no further argument. I think that was reasonable.
What bothered me was that initially it seemed to be assumed it was my fault - and the fact that I was told the climate problem hadn't been looked at when I was called on Wednesday, when the fact that they asked about the battery makes that seem rather unlikely to be true.
But to be fair to Ascot, when I presented my argument they tried McLaren first and then agreed to cover it themselves with no further argument. I think that was reasonable.
Very sorry to hear about the climate module. That really sounds like something Mclaren should take care of.
I’m afraid the traction control software story sounds like total BS. The 650s is well known to have excellent traction for such a powerful, light-ish car, but cannot defeat physics. The 650s traction control evolved from the 12c but no one (else) seems to be aware in any such “update”. I’ll check on this.
I frequently (every weekend early morning) drive the car in the cold and the wet and it is absolutely amazing how hard it pulls out of corners, but of course overseer is just a touch away. BTW, I sometimes leave Handling in Normal, to allow the car to rock back to maximize traction. Not sure if the 360 is a good baseline, as it doesn’t really have the torque -about half that of the 650s at about the same weight.
I’m going to change to PS4S shortly as my Pirellis are just about gone now, and look forward to even better traction.
Again, if you’re ever in Manchester on a weekend, I’d love to give you a ride to show you what I mean.
I’m afraid the traction control software story sounds like total BS. The 650s is well known to have excellent traction for such a powerful, light-ish car, but cannot defeat physics. The 650s traction control evolved from the 12c but no one (else) seems to be aware in any such “update”. I’ll check on this.
I frequently (every weekend early morning) drive the car in the cold and the wet and it is absolutely amazing how hard it pulls out of corners, but of course overseer is just a touch away. BTW, I sometimes leave Handling in Normal, to allow the car to rock back to maximize traction. Not sure if the 360 is a good baseline, as it doesn’t really have the torque -about half that of the 650s at about the same weight.
I’m going to change to PS4S shortly as my Pirellis are just about gone now, and look forward to even better traction.
Again, if you’re ever in Manchester on a weekend, I’d love to give you a ride to show you what I mean.
Edited by 12pack on Tuesday 3rd December 20:26
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