Mclaren depreciation
Discussion
RBT0 said:
Will, do you really think customers (from new) haven’t lost money on 675?
I still remember when many here were pointing the fact that 675s went below list.
Or am I dreaming?
The 675LT spider cars I have been looking to buy have dropped circa £100k from list price but are 4 years old now. £100k is still a lot of money but TBH £25k per year is about what I would expect of any supercar. I've had Ferraris and Lamborghinis that have faired worse than that. Unfortunately a regular Mclaren seems to do double that though I still remember when many here were pointing the fact that 675s went below list.
Or am I dreaming?
If you bought a used 675LT just after launch you could have easily have paid a £100k premium over list so that £200k swing in price over 3 years would certainly hurt.
Does seem that they have bottomed out now and supply of anything decent is certainly drying up. I just hope I haven't missed the boat but I'm sure a few more will be flushed out with owners upgrading to 765LT although personally I would find it hard to pay double the price and an extra £200k if I owned a 675LT. Law of diminishing returns and the potential downsides would outweigh the desire to purely have the "latest and greatest"
WilliamWaiver said:
The 675LT spider cars I have been looking to buy have dropped circa £100k from list price but are 4 years old now. £100k is still a lot of money but TBH £25k per year is about what I would expect of any supercar. I've had Ferraris and Lamborghinis that have faired worse than that. Unfortunately a regular Mclaren seems to do double that though
No they don't.I bought my 650 Spider a year ago. Prices then varied between about £110k to £130k depending on where you bought it and what the spec was.
Unless they were £300k+ cars new, they haven't lost double your expectations. In fact, I'd say they were pretty close to it.
LotusJas said:
MAC 720S said:
When did they start taking deposits for the 765LT Spider?
I can confirm they have started, as I have a deposit on 765LTS.Regarding comparing 675LT to 650S, there was actually a LOT more to improve than there is with 720S, which is already very light and frankly incredible.
I am 100% certain people will be astonished by the 765LT, and it will be the best non hybrid road car McLaren will ever make, excluding the legendary F1.
The thread is about depreciation however and as pointed out the 675LT has depreciated from £260k basic to approx £180k basic. £80k in 5 years or 30%. Not horrendous. I would expect the 765LT to do the same (if world economy assumed unchanged, who knows) £280k list so £200k in 5 years?
The issues with depreciation come when people sell too soon. I watched chap moaning on YouTube about the PCP on his Audi SQ5 which cost him £25k in one year when he changed for a Macan S which then lost exactly the same. £25k a year for a 'normal' car compared to £16k per year for supercar, as long as you don't get 'bored' and bail for the latest and greatest.
There are 3 ways to beat depreciation, be a lucky flipper, which is a gamble, keep long term - 5 years plus - 10 years+ better, or buy a used car near the bottom of its curve (e.g. 675 over a 765). Buy new and sell in the first few years and expect to be robbed, whatever your car is, depreciation is not a McLaren issue its a people getting bored issue and paying the price.
Also remember you can't put a price on enjoyment and people generally don't moan when they go on a £10k holiday as they have lost £10k. When I sell a car i view it as a long lasting holiday, I have enjoyed it, made memories in it, had epic drives and road trips to amazing places and met many new friends. You can't put a price on that and it will not come free.
Edited by Bispal on Tuesday 8th September 08:45
WilliamWaiver said:
The 675LT spider cars I have been looking to buy have dropped circa £100k from list price but are 4 years old now. £100k is still a lot of money but TBH £25k per year is about what I would expect of any supercar. I've had Ferraris and Lamborghinis that have faired worse than that. Unfortunately a regular Mclaren seems to do double that though
If you bought a used 675LT just after launch you could have easily have paid a £100k premium over list so that £200k swing in price over 3 years would certainly hurt.
Does seem that they have bottomed out now and supply of anything decent is certainly drying up. I just hope I haven't missed the boat but I'm sure a few more will be flushed out with owners upgrading to 765LT although personally I would find it hard to pay double the price and an extra £200k if I owned a 675LT. Law of diminishing returns and the potential downsides would outweigh the desire to purely have the "latest and greatest"
I agree that right now 675lts are flavour of the month. But I would urge you to wait a bit longer as once the 765lt is out it will shift attention away from the 675. And it’s performance will be like nothing else...and then 6 months on, they will be selling at a discount.If you bought a used 675LT just after launch you could have easily have paid a £100k premium over list so that £200k swing in price over 3 years would certainly hurt.
Does seem that they have bottomed out now and supply of anything decent is certainly drying up. I just hope I haven't missed the boat but I'm sure a few more will be flushed out with owners upgrading to 765LT although personally I would find it hard to pay double the price and an extra £200k if I owned a 675LT. Law of diminishing returns and the potential downsides would outweigh the desire to purely have the "latest and greatest"
TP321 said:
I agree that right now 675lts are flavour of the month. But I would urge you to wait a bit longer as once the 765lt is out it will shift attention away from the 675. And it’s performance will be like nothing else...and then 6 months on, they will be selling at a discount.
I agree and this is my quandary. I don't fancy paying list price and then stomaching a big loss 6 months down the line. The 675LT seems a far safer bet at half the money and at the bottom of its depreciation curve, but the difficulty is picking one upThere is little doubt 675’s have been less effected by depreciation than almost all the other McLaren models. And No surprise, it is also one of the all time great drivers Supercars.
This is down to a number of factors but not least its lower weight, particularly rotating weight and suspension etc. This gives it very precise handling particularly for track use. How many actually go onto a track is unknown but many seem to have been kept in garages judging by their mileage. For road use pretty much any McLaren can keep up with another !!
In my experience they do have a bit of an aura about them and their balance on track is excellent. The aura is not by accident, they were a Limited run which creates desirability, well built from the factory and often bought by enthusiasts who managed to create the mystique by rarely criticising them.
But they are flawed against for eg: a 720s. The monocoque 2 is better for access, the M840T engine a large improvement with its greater torque and the aero with its Laminar effect vastly superior. In my view the 720s has a far better designed cabin and aesthetically at least a more advanced car. The 720 did though suffer initially with quality control issues that have unfortunately dogged its existence since, but many 675’s also had issues which were less well publicised. Many folks do prefer the more raw edge of the 675 which is a noisier and harder riding car which of course is a personal enjoyment view.
The 720 took the Supercar series way beyond the performance levels of the best Supercars and also the 675 though!
Losing money on cars is never pleasant no matter how much you may have. The biggest losers to date have been possibly new 720 buyers who paid close to list in 2018/2019 on high spec cars which were likely £275- £300k new. Many used examples have now been sold with mainly less desirable spec and colours left. Losses on a 2 yr old car may well have been over £100,000.
The effect of depreciation has different effects on different buyers. One reason why the 720s has faired badly was the ability of many folks being able to get into one with a £30,000 k deposit and pay monthly who had no real concern on the future residuals, as they are just handing them back. McLaren exacerbated this by having some excellent deals on non outright purchase which helped sell cars but not help future prices. To some extent values have stabilised and many of the better stock now sold
The 765LT will I believe be different. It’s performance will be Hypercar as the 720 already provides that but whether at £350-400k it will be a slow depreciator is unknown, likely not though. But it will sell and for those who are brave enough to purchase one in the first year of production will be getting a car that is light years is advance of the 675
This is down to a number of factors but not least its lower weight, particularly rotating weight and suspension etc. This gives it very precise handling particularly for track use. How many actually go onto a track is unknown but many seem to have been kept in garages judging by their mileage. For road use pretty much any McLaren can keep up with another !!
In my experience they do have a bit of an aura about them and their balance on track is excellent. The aura is not by accident, they were a Limited run which creates desirability, well built from the factory and often bought by enthusiasts who managed to create the mystique by rarely criticising them.
But they are flawed against for eg: a 720s. The monocoque 2 is better for access, the M840T engine a large improvement with its greater torque and the aero with its Laminar effect vastly superior. In my view the 720s has a far better designed cabin and aesthetically at least a more advanced car. The 720 did though suffer initially with quality control issues that have unfortunately dogged its existence since, but many 675’s also had issues which were less well publicised. Many folks do prefer the more raw edge of the 675 which is a noisier and harder riding car which of course is a personal enjoyment view.
The 720 took the Supercar series way beyond the performance levels of the best Supercars and also the 675 though!
Losing money on cars is never pleasant no matter how much you may have. The biggest losers to date have been possibly new 720 buyers who paid close to list in 2018/2019 on high spec cars which were likely £275- £300k new. Many used examples have now been sold with mainly less desirable spec and colours left. Losses on a 2 yr old car may well have been over £100,000.
The effect of depreciation has different effects on different buyers. One reason why the 720s has faired badly was the ability of many folks being able to get into one with a £30,000 k deposit and pay monthly who had no real concern on the future residuals, as they are just handing them back. McLaren exacerbated this by having some excellent deals on non outright purchase which helped sell cars but not help future prices. To some extent values have stabilised and many of the better stock now sold
The 765LT will I believe be different. It’s performance will be Hypercar as the 720 already provides that but whether at £350-400k it will be a slow depreciator is unknown, likely not though. But it will sell and for those who are brave enough to purchase one in the first year of production will be getting a car that is light years is advance of the 675
davek_964 said:
No they don't.
I bought my 650 Spider a year ago. Prices then varied between about £110k to £130k depending on where you bought it and what the spec was.
Unless they were £300k+ cars new, they haven't lost double your expectations. In fact, I'd say they were pretty close to it.
As a used car that's already suffered the initial depreciation they make total sense so yours will not lose anything like that at the £100k mark but if you buy new at list then you are in for a very hefty ownership experience.I bought my 650 Spider a year ago. Prices then varied between about £110k to £130k depending on where you bought it and what the spec was.
Unless they were £300k+ cars new, they haven't lost double your expectations. In fact, I'd say they were pretty close to it.
One of my mates bought a 2015 650S spider from new and paid circa £270k and when he chopped it in after 3 years 8k miles he got £130k, thats a whopping £140k over 3 years or £47k pa and that's fact.
Might be an extreme example, might not be all I know is they were very real figures and a painful one for him to swallow and as a result he left the brand to go back to a porsche which from a car point of view he was gutted with but from a financial point of view he had little choice
LotusJas said:
WilliamWaiver said:
Ferrari always make 1 less than demand and are far more successful at managing used car residual values.
Limited edition ferraris always carry a heavy premium regardless of how good they are.
Correction: this used to be true.Limited edition ferraris always carry a heavy premium regardless of how good they are.
Ferrari are overproducing cars as much as anyone else recently. See 488 prices. Pista too in fact.
Where Mclaren went wrong was producing for stock and pushing them to dealers, hopefully that's changed now.
IMHO
Having seen nearly 30K vanish from a Porsche in 3 years (despite less that 1500 miles) I can understand that big drops in even more expensive cars are going to hurt, so you either need to buy new and keep things until they (potentially) start to go back up again (no good if you want the latest and greatest), buy nearly new and take less of a hit, or buy at the bottom of the depreciation curve and take a chance that things will improve.
Having said all that if you buy something you want, enjoy it as you want to, then change to something else you can only realistically expect to 'lose' financially, what you gain is the experience of having the thing you wanted in the first place
, if you 'make' money then that's a bonus
I could sell what I have and get myself into a 720 and I must admit it's a very tempting proposition to do so, however I then wouldn't have the flexibility to use the other cars for their different driving experiences, which I really enjoy, so for the moment I will just enjoy planning how to add another car to the fleet without selling anything else
Having said all that if you buy something you want, enjoy it as you want to, then change to something else you can only realistically expect to 'lose' financially, what you gain is the experience of having the thing you wanted in the first place
, if you 'make' money then that's a bonus I could sell what I have and get myself into a 720 and I must admit it's a very tempting proposition to do so, however I then wouldn't have the flexibility to use the other cars for their different driving experiences, which I really enjoy, so for the moment I will just enjoy planning how to add another car to the fleet without selling anything else
Agree with pretty much all of what's been said in the recent few posts
I'm one of those who lost a lot on a new 720S. Yet the car, and experience, have been utterly awesome that I'm happily buying a new 765LTS.
So why am I not worried about depreciation on the new car?
Simply a range of reasons already discussed:
- limited numbers
- VERY few UK cars
- almost certainly the best non hybrid road car McLaren will ever make (excluding the legendary F1)
And even if all that fails, as its the last non hybrid, I plan to keep it for around 10 years anyway. Depreciation is really only a factor in early years.
I know the new McLaren hybrids will be faster and have nicer interiors. But they will also be heavier and less pure (not as bad as SF90 though
). And like all hybrids, will be rapidly improved and superseded.
I'm one of those who lost a lot on a new 720S. Yet the car, and experience, have been utterly awesome that I'm happily buying a new 765LTS.
So why am I not worried about depreciation on the new car?
Simply a range of reasons already discussed:
- limited numbers
- VERY few UK cars
- almost certainly the best non hybrid road car McLaren will ever make (excluding the legendary F1)
And even if all that fails, as its the last non hybrid, I plan to keep it for around 10 years anyway. Depreciation is really only a factor in early years.
I know the new McLaren hybrids will be faster and have nicer interiors. But they will also be heavier and less pure (not as bad as SF90 though
). And like all hybrids, will be rapidly improved and superseded.WilliamWaiver said:
Does seem that they have bottomed out now and supply of anything decent is certainly drying up. I just hope I haven't missed the boat but I'm sure a few more will be flushed out with owners upgrading to 765LT
You keep saying this but your perfect spec Napier green spider is still available at Top555?There are 9 cars on AT. 2 have sold this week and one doesn't count as its carbon series £450k. So 6 cars, one in your perfect spec, so why don't you go for it? Personally If it was a spider Alastair Bols has a drop dead gorgeous Tour de France blue for the same price as the Napier Green (so 7 cars for sale) and that would be my choice if I wanted a spider.
I know 55+ LT owners and none have said they are trading in a 675LT for a 765LT. A couple are buying as well as but don't expect a flood of used 675LT on the market, remember there are only 90ish spiders anyway and only a handful in Napier and one is for sale now......
LotusJas said:
Agree with pretty much all of what's been said in the recent few posts
I'm one of those who lost a lot on a new 720S. Yet the car, and experience, have been utterly awesome that I'm happily buying a new 765LTS.
So why am I not worried about depreciation on the new car?
Simply a range of reasons already discussed:
- limited numbers
- VERY few UK cars
- almost certainly the best non hybrid road car McLaren will ever make (excluding the legendary F1)
And even if all that fails, as its the last non hybrid, I plan to keep it for around 10 years anyway. Depreciation is really only a factor in early years.
I know the new McLaren hybrids will be faster and have nicer interiors. But they will also be heavier and less pure (not as bad as SF90 though ). And like all hybrids, will be rapidly improved and superseded.
Spot on again LotusJas :-) I'm one of those who lost a lot on a new 720S. Yet the car, and experience, have been utterly awesome that I'm happily buying a new 765LTS.
So why am I not worried about depreciation on the new car?
Simply a range of reasons already discussed:
- limited numbers
- VERY few UK cars
- almost certainly the best non hybrid road car McLaren will ever make (excluding the legendary F1)
And even if all that fails, as its the last non hybrid, I plan to keep it for around 10 years anyway. Depreciation is really only a factor in early years.
I know the new McLaren hybrids will be faster and have nicer interiors. But they will also be heavier and less pure (not as bad as SF90 though
). And like all hybrids, will be rapidly improved and superseded.Bispal said:
You keep saying this but your perfect spec Napier green spider is still available at Top555?
There are 9 cars on AT. 2 have sold this week and one doesn't count as its carbon series £450k. So 6 cars, one in your perfect spec, so why don't you go for it? Personally If it was a spider Alastair Bols has a drop dead gorgeous Tour de France blue for the same price as the Napier Green (so 7 cars for sale) and that would be my choice if I wanted a spider.
I know 55+ LT owners and none have said they are trading in a 675LT for a 765LT. A couple are buying as well as but don't expect a flood of used 675LT on the market, remember there are only 90ish spiders anyway and only a handful in Napier and one is for sale now......
Sadly the Top555 car is far from my perfect spec ( except the colour ) which is a shame as I have bought several cars from Them in the past and know the quality will be spot on.There are 9 cars on AT. 2 have sold this week and one doesn't count as its carbon series £450k. So 6 cars, one in your perfect spec, so why don't you go for it? Personally If it was a spider Alastair Bols has a drop dead gorgeous Tour de France blue for the same price as the Napier Green (so 7 cars for sale) and that would be my choice if I wanted a spider.
I know 55+ LT owners and none have said they are trading in a 675LT for a 765LT. A couple are buying as well as but don't expect a flood of used 675LT on the market, remember there are only 90ish spiders anyway and only a handful in Napier and one is for sale now......
For me its a basic car with minimal carbon, no wing louvres and the wrong wheels. Despite the competitive price to get it to the spec I am after would cost another £30k and I hopefully have a better option than that available to me from a mate in October for £235k
The Tour de france blue one is definitely unique (and blue is my favorite colour ) but its just too dark and a little flat and with the red and silver wheels isn't doing it for me at all. Maybe its becoming psychological now but I cant remember the last time I saw a blue that suited a supercar that I liked
( maybe Vega Blue or Blue Nethuns have been the best recently )
Don't panic I have it all in hand
I cant believe that of the 55 675LT owners you know only a couple are buying a 765LT. If thats the case McLaren will really struggle to sell the 1530 cars to primarily new conquest customers.
It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
WilliamWaiver said:
I cant believe that of the 55 675LT owners you know only a couple are buying a 765LT. If thats the case McLaren will really struggle to sell the 1530 cars to primarily new conquest customers.
It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
Yeah, because the only potential customer's for 765LT are 675LT owners or people who are new to the marque.It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
Oh, except for 720 owners - one of which has already confirmed he'll be buying a 765LT on this very thread. I rather doubt Jas will be the only 720 owner who does that.
Your final sentence is slightly bizarre for somebody who's apparently keen to buy a McLaren.
WilliamWaiver said:
Sadly the Top555 car is far from my perfect spec ( except the colour ) which is a shame as I have bought several cars from Them in the past and know the quality will be spot on.
For me its a basic car with minimal carbon, no wing louvres and the wrong wheels. Despite the competitive price to get it to the spec I am after would cost another £30k and I hopefully have a better option than that available to me from a mate in October for £235k
The Tour de france blue one is definitely unique (and blue is my favorite colour ) but its just too dark and a little flat and with the red and silver wheels isn't doing it for me at all. Maybe its becoming psychological now but I cant remember the last time I saw a blue that suited a supercar that I liked
( maybe Vega Blue or Blue Nethuns have been the best recently )
Don't panic I have it all in hand
I cant believe that of the 55 675LT owners you know only a couple are buying a 765LT. If thats the case McLaren will really struggle to sell the 1530 cars to primarily new conquest customers.
It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
I think you are “hoisted by your own Petard”For me its a basic car with minimal carbon, no wing louvres and the wrong wheels. Despite the competitive price to get it to the spec I am after would cost another £30k and I hopefully have a better option than that available to me from a mate in October for £235k
The Tour de france blue one is definitely unique (and blue is my favorite colour ) but its just too dark and a little flat and with the red and silver wheels isn't doing it for me at all. Maybe its becoming psychological now but I cant remember the last time I saw a blue that suited a supercar that I liked
( maybe Vega Blue or Blue Nethuns have been the best recently )
Don't panic I have it all in hand
I cant believe that of the 55 675LT owners you know only a couple are buying a 765LT. If thats the case McLaren will really struggle to sell the 1530 cars to primarily new conquest customers.
It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
I’m not saying you are a troller but you appear to have a myriad of contradictions. Waiverer or ditherer !!
Buy one if you want one but You have probably missed the boat anyway !!
Edited by Rocketreid on Wednesday 9th September 10:40
WilliamWaiver said:
Bispal said:
You keep saying this but your perfect spec Napier green spider is still available at Top555?
There are 9 cars on AT. 2 have sold this week and one doesn't count as its carbon series £450k. So 6 cars, one in your perfect spec, so why don't you go for it? Personally If it was a spider Alastair Bols has a drop dead gorgeous Tour de France blue for the same price as the Napier Green (so 7 cars for sale) and that would be my choice if I wanted a spider.
I know 55+ LT owners and none have said they are trading in a 675LT for a 765LT. A couple are buying as well as but don't expect a flood of used 675LT on the market, remember there are only 90ish spiders anyway and only a handful in Napier and one is for sale now......
Sadly the Top555 car is far from my perfect spec ( except the colour ) which is a shame as I have bought several cars from Them in the past and know the quality will be spot on.There are 9 cars on AT. 2 have sold this week and one doesn't count as its carbon series £450k. So 6 cars, one in your perfect spec, so why don't you go for it? Personally If it was a spider Alastair Bols has a drop dead gorgeous Tour de France blue for the same price as the Napier Green (so 7 cars for sale) and that would be my choice if I wanted a spider.
I know 55+ LT owners and none have said they are trading in a 675LT for a 765LT. A couple are buying as well as but don't expect a flood of used 675LT on the market, remember there are only 90ish spiders anyway and only a handful in Napier and one is for sale now......
For me its a basic car with minimal carbon, no wing louvres and the wrong wheels. Despite the competitive price to get it to the spec I am after would cost another £30k and I hopefully have a better option than that available to me from a mate in October for £235k
The Tour de france blue one is definitely unique (and blue is my favorite colour ) but its just too dark and a little flat and with the red and silver wheels isn't doing it for me at all. Maybe its becoming psychological now but I cant remember the last time I saw a blue that suited a supercar that I liked
( maybe Vega Blue or Blue Nethuns have been the best recently )
Don't panic I have it all in hand
I cant believe that of the 55 675LT owners you know only a couple are buying a 765LT. If thats the case McLaren will really struggle to sell the 1530 cars to primarily new conquest customers.
It also underlines the fact that they are taking existing owners ( who should be their bread and butter ) out of the market which is completely the wrong way to grow the brand. They need to retain their existing customers for the long term and add a smaller proportion of new conquests each year, not constantly finding new prospects or dare I say it VICTIMNS
McLaren have many 765's sold to RoW and a some of the UK RHD production has been switched to LHD to meet RoW demand. I know plenty of McLaren 720 owners who have deposits so their existing owners have not been taken out of the market.
I don't see how a 765LT prospective owner is a victim? They are still buying an exceedingly limited car with exceptional, possibly world leading, performance on and off the track that is engineered to blow the competition away. They know what the depreciation will be, they don't have their heads in the sand and are not blinkered to the current state of the supercar market. For them its worth it to have what could be the worlds best supercar, especially if owned long term like LotusJas eludes to.
Its a similar story with my 981 Spyder, Many owners kept them and were not compelled to PX for the 718 Spyder at 50% additional cost for 5-10% improvement in performance. However plenty of existing Boxster customers bought one......
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