Discussion
355spiderguy said:
breadvan said:
I draw loose similarities between LR and McLaren.
At a time when they both desperately need more footfall both launch variants of their core models, the Defender and this.
One will save its company and the other one, well.............
LR are a beast of a company struggling with lots of models, brands, sales and debts...and a whole different level of reliability and depreciation issues.At a time when they both desperately need more footfall both launch variants of their core models, the Defender and this.
One will save its company and the other one, well.............
McLaren are small but with wealthy backers...a quick look at what they posted doesn't look too bad...can't see them vanishing anytime soon.
Someone somewhere within McLaren convinced the board there is a market for the GT....i have no idea where or what numbers they are expecting but I'm guessing it stacked up towards development costs.
I don't know that the GT will be a commercial success, although if it is a failure that would not necessarily be because the concept did not make practical sense. Why, many of us wondered 15 years ago, would anybody in their right mind buy a Cayenne when they could get the same car with a different badge from Porsche's parent company for half as much money? Well, we learned the answer to that. The Urus makes no sense on any level (except that of a teenager), yet in short order it has become Lambo's most commercially important model.
For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
flemke said:
I don't know that the GT will be a commercial success, although if it is a failure that would not necessarily be because the concept did not make practical sense. Why, many of us wondered 15 years ago, would anybody in their right mind buy a Cayenne when they could get the same car with a different badge from Porsche's parent company for half as much money? Well, we learned the answer to that. The Urus makes no sense on any level (except that of a teenager), yet in short order it has become Lambo's most commercially important model.
For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
To use the Cayenne as an example, it’s as good as the competition at being a SUV and the badge is a ‘nice to have’ to justify the price - it was for me.For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
The reviews say the McLaren isn’t as good as its peers at being a GT, so my worry is, it’ll only appeal to buyers wanting a McLaren, not buyers searching for a GT.
I don’t think that market is big enough for success.
breadvan said:
flemke said:
I don't know that the GT will be a commercial success, although if it is a failure that would not necessarily be because the concept did not make practical sense. Why, many of us wondered 15 years ago, would anybody in their right mind buy a Cayenne when they could get the same car with a different badge from Porsche's parent company for half as much money? Well, we learned the answer to that. The Urus makes no sense on any level (except that of a teenager), yet in short order it has become Lambo's most commercially important model.
For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
To use the Cayenne as an example, it’s as good as the competition at being a SUV and the badge is a ‘nice to have’ to justify the price - it was for me.For at least 98% of the people who buy modern Ferraris, Porsches and McLarens, the capabilities of a 360 Modena or 996 Carrera 2 are already beyond their ability to exploit on a public road. The more recent products of these manufacturers are vastly beyond their ability, completely unapproachable by them.
So, if a company comes along with a product that mitigates some of the more serous drawbacks of "supercars", such as meagre luggage space, a harsh ride and a poor ramp angle, whilst still offering supercar looks and far more performance than anybody is ever going to use, many people might well consider it.
Working against that, I suppose, is that fact that a lot of people seem to be attracted to the fantasy that their car theoretically could be driven much faster, even though they themselves will never do so.
The reviews say the McLaren isn’t as good as its peers at being a GT, so my worry is, it’ll only appeal to buyers wanting a McLaren, not buyers searching for a GT.
I don’t think that market is big enough for success.
The original concept of the GT genre was that two people would spend a week driving around the Continent at high speed. How many people still do that and, of those that do, how many need the typically large boot of a front-engined car?
My sense is that it is more common for people taking week-long trips to fly, but using their cars, GT or otherwise, for weekend trips of shorter distance. If so, there could be a need for the McLaren GT, although whether enough people will figure that out is another matter.
I still say that the GT is a better car for most buyers of 488s and Huracans than those cars are, although of course that does not mean that anyone will change his or her bias.
SydneyBridge said:
The profit that Porsche makes from SUV's certainly helps them develop the sports cars
Mclaren could do with something like that but would need help from a partnership or something
One man's opinion: they should merge with/be bought by a major car manufacturer to which McLaren would bring distinct new assets but for which the cost of buying McLaren would be small beer.Mclaren could do with something like that but would need help from a partnership or something
flemke said:
SydneyBridge said:
The profit that Porsche makes from SUV's certainly helps them develop the sports cars
Mclaren could do with something like that but would need help from a partnership or something
One man's opinion: they should merge with/be bought by a major car manufacturer to which McLaren would bring distinct new assets but for which the cost of buying McLaren would be small beer.Mclaren could do with something like that but would need help from a partnership or something
flemke said:
One man's opinion: they should merge with/be bought by a major car manufacturer to which McLaren would bring distinct new assets but for which the cost of buying McLaren would be small beer.
Mercedes would be an interesting partnership to revisit as I don't think they have interests in a supercar manufacturer (Daimler have a stake in Aston), but may conflict with F1. Would allow them to compete with VW / Lamborghini.They did collaborate with the SLR.
I guess I am the ideal client for this. I do a couple of long European trips every year with my wife and luggage. A GT car has to be comfortable, quiet, spacious & hold a good amount of luggage, at least those would be my wife's requirements. For me it has to be beautiful & interesting / rare, engaging to drive (so I don't get bored driving), quick enough to be fun in the alps, small enough to thread through villages and park in European town centre car parks. If its a convertible it also helps. Oh and I don't like fuel anxiety so anything that averages under 20mpg is a no.
That's a lot of requirements! However the 12C I owned for 2 and half years pretty much had it nailed apart from the engagement, it doesn't have a manual gearbox and doesn't sound particularly impressive. I have now replaced with a 981 Spyder. It is almost perfect for the job. Unique, engaging, lots of boot space. A 996 also did the job very well several times.
The problem with this McLaren is that almost all their other cars are great touring cars, 12C / 650S / 570S / 570GT / 720S. They didn't need a touring car, especially one with the same engine & set up that was uglier than all other McLarens. My 12C could fit copious amounts of luggage in the frunk and parcel shelf for a 2-3 week trip so problem.
A touring car needs a split personality. Small, nippy and agile for the mountain villages and cities and fast / comfortable / spacious for the long boring m-ways in-between. The truth is a plain 981 Boxster is probably the best touring car you can buy and if you want something more 'special' other McLarens are available. I don't think this will sell well, at least in the UK, as it answers a question that wasn't asked, is uglier than all other McLarens and seems to do nothing, in terms of touring, particularly well. Personally an almost new used 720S would be much better for the job.
What is missing from the market is a lightweight but comfy touring car with a proper shooting brake body. Like a smaller. lighter FF, Volvo P1800E, AM - Zagato, Reliant Scimitar. If someone made a lightweight 2 door shooting brake of medium proportions with a panoramic roof and manual gearbox I would be beating their door down with a deposit.
That's a lot of requirements! However the 12C I owned for 2 and half years pretty much had it nailed apart from the engagement, it doesn't have a manual gearbox and doesn't sound particularly impressive. I have now replaced with a 981 Spyder. It is almost perfect for the job. Unique, engaging, lots of boot space. A 996 also did the job very well several times.
The problem with this McLaren is that almost all their other cars are great touring cars, 12C / 650S / 570S / 570GT / 720S. They didn't need a touring car, especially one with the same engine & set up that was uglier than all other McLarens. My 12C could fit copious amounts of luggage in the frunk and parcel shelf for a 2-3 week trip so problem.
A touring car needs a split personality. Small, nippy and agile for the mountain villages and cities and fast / comfortable / spacious for the long boring m-ways in-between. The truth is a plain 981 Boxster is probably the best touring car you can buy and if you want something more 'special' other McLarens are available. I don't think this will sell well, at least in the UK, as it answers a question that wasn't asked, is uglier than all other McLarens and seems to do nothing, in terms of touring, particularly well. Personally an almost new used 720S would be much better for the job.
What is missing from the market is a lightweight but comfy touring car with a proper shooting brake body. Like a smaller. lighter FF, Volvo P1800E, AM - Zagato, Reliant Scimitar. If someone made a lightweight 2 door shooting brake of medium proportions with a panoramic roof and manual gearbox I would be beating their door down with a deposit.
Bispal said:
The problem with this McLaren is that almost all their other cars are great touring cars, 12C / 650S / 570S / 570GT / 720S. They didn't need a touring car, especially one with the same engine & set up that was uglier than all other McLarens. My 12C could fit copious amounts of luggage in the frunk and parcel shelf for a 2-3 week trip so problem.
Yep, I'd be entirely happy to go on a cross Europe trip in my 650 - I think it would be extremely comfortable and is more than capable when you get to the twisty stuff (although luggage capacity is somewhat limited in the Spider). I do think that McLaren bridge the gap between the "useable daily fast car" that is usually attributed to Porsche, and the weekend impractical very fast car that is usually attributed to stuff like Lambo / top end Ferrari. It seems to be more than capable of being both, which is very impressive.Since you mentioned the manual gearbox thing - it was one thing I was really very very anti about when I was considering the McLaren and / or 458. However, having had paddles for 4 weeks, I can't say I miss it much - when I used my 360 the other day, it really did seem a bit of an unnecessary effort to use a proper manual gear shift.
I saw a post from somebody a month or two back saying that they thought the premium on manual cars would eventually disappear and they might become worth less than the paddle shift equivalents because the playstation generation won't care about manual gearboxes. I'm beginning to think they may have a point.
davek_964 said:
Bispal said:
The problem with this McLaren is that almost all their other cars are great touring cars, 12C / 650S / 570S / 570GT / 720S. They didn't need a touring car, especially one with the same engine & set up that was uglier than all other McLarens. My 12C could fit copious amounts of luggage in the frunk and parcel shelf for a 2-3 week trip so problem.
Yep, I'd be entirely happy to go on a cross Europe trip in my 650 - I think it would be extremely comfortable and is more than capable when you get to the twisty stuff (although luggage capacity is somewhat limited in the Spider). I do think that McLaren bridge the gap between the "useable daily fast car" that is usually attributed to Porsche, and the weekend impractical very fast car that is usually attributed to stuff like Lambo / top end Ferrari. It seems to be more than capable of being both, which is very impressive.Since you mentioned the manual gearbox thing - it was one thing I was really very very anti about when I was considering the McLaren and / or 458. However, having had paddles for 4 weeks, I can't say I miss it much - when I used my 360 the other day, it really did seem a bit of an unnecessary effort to use a proper manual gear shift.
I saw a post from somebody a month or two back saying that they thought the premium on manual cars would eventually disappear and they might become worth less than the paddle shift equivalents because the playstation generation won't care about manual gearboxes. I'm beginning to think they may have a point.
650S is probably the best McLaren made. Most developed / evolved platform looks great, fairly reliable and in coupe form has loads of luggage space and is rare (35 only in UK). Will be a future classic but in 20 years time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJ5Zkc9H-M0
Interesting from 8.30 re reliability. On launch cars you'd think they'd be on it. Its almost like they don't give an f. I'd be firing staff.
Interesting from 8.30 re reliability. On launch cars you'd think they'd be on it. Its almost like they don't give an f. I'd be firing staff.
Bispal said:
650S is probably the best McLaren made. Most developed / evolved platform looks great, fairly reliable and in coupe form has loads of luggage space and is rare (35 only in UK). Will be a future classic but in 20 years time.
There are only 35 650S coupes in the U.K.? Blimey.breadvan said:
Bispal said:
650S is probably the best McLaren made. Most developed / evolved platform looks great, fairly reliable and in coupe form has loads of luggage space and is rare (35 only in UK). Will be a future classic but in 20 years time.
There are only 35 650S coupes in the U.K.? Blimey.
Road trip review
https://youtu.be/FJg7W95wMW4
Oops, edited to add correct YT vid
https://youtu.be/FJg7W95wMW4
Oops, edited to add correct YT vid
Edited by HighwayStar on Friday 20th September 14:28
davek_964 said:
Since you mentioned the manual gearbox thing - it was one thing I was really very very anti about when I was considering the McLaren and / or 458. However, having had paddles for 4 weeks, I can't say I miss it much - when I used my 360 the other day, it really did seem a bit of an unnecessary effort to use a proper manual gear shift.
With you on manuals. I still the have one of the best - V12 Vantage - but I don’t miss even the manual rev matching. These days more focused on left foot braking, which I wouldn’t dare with a manual. Its a bit like hand cranking to start the car. 
Certainly a bit more involving, but not worth the effort.Bispal said:
I guess I am the ideal client for this. I do a couple of long European trips every year with my wife and luggage. A GT car has to be comfortable, quiet, spacious & hold a good amount of luggage, at least those would be my wife's requirements. For me it has to be beautiful & interesting / rare, engaging to drive (so I don't get bored driving), quick enough to be fun in the alps, small enough to thread through villages and park in European town centre car parks. If its a convertible it also helps. Oh and I don't like fuel anxiety so anything that averages under 20mpg is a no.
What is missing from the market is a lightweight but comfy touring car with a proper shooting brake body. Like a smaller. lighter FF, Volvo P1800E, AM - Zagato, Reliant Scimitar. If someone made a lightweight 2 door shooting brake of medium proportions with a panoramic roof and manual gearbox I would be beating their door down with a deposit.
I agree entirely.What is missing from the market is a lightweight but comfy touring car with a proper shooting brake body. Like a smaller. lighter FF, Volvo P1800E, AM - Zagato, Reliant Scimitar. If someone made a lightweight 2 door shooting brake of medium proportions with a panoramic roof and manual gearbox I would be beating their door down with a deposit.
I believe Porsche have such sitting in a bottom draw.
They just need to reintroduce its mighty 928.
Deposits at the ready
I think Mcl really really missed a trick here. They should have created a front-mid engined GT car (like the rest of its competitors), but used its engineering prowess to really keep the weight down, and the packaging really good. Thankfully Mcl already has a really good damping setup, so it is already comfortable, and its steering is also class leading. Then, being a front engined car, it doesn't need to be the fastest car around track, so Mcl could afford to put a bespoke engine in, focussed on character rather than performance. A GT car needs a characterful engine. Basically a Mcl 812, but more comfortable, better steering, and better packaged. They won't sell many of this new GT....
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