The dreaded depreciation

The dreaded depreciation

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Discussion

laeumh

Original Poster:

12 posts

44 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
Whilst trying to do a bit of man maths to get into a McLaren I came across an old EVO magazine Feb 2016. Had a piece on buying a used 12C. Very interesting.
Recommended at about £105k as a good purchase for a 2011 12C. A well known independent quoted as saying " People are waking up to the fact that it has investment potential". I'm not for one minute suggesting any foul play here but it goes to show that you take a reasonable leap of faith buying McLaren.. at that time you'd have paid about £110k for a decent spec so trade today 3 years later lucky to get £65k - £45k dropped over 3 years plus 3x5k warranty .....Food for thought for sure...but I really want a 570...😏maybe a GT3/458 is safer after all, even being more £ on initial price.

GT4RS

1,989 posts

145 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
All will loose money, buy what you want and enjoy using it as we are a long time dead.

Investment cars are few and far between.

Drl22

184 posts

13 months

Sunday 17th November
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GT4RS said:
All will loose money, buy what you want and enjoy using it as we are a long time dead.

Investment cars are few and far between.
Not true though is it. You are guaranteed to lose more on a Mac. What you buy doesn’t have to make money but I’d rather it didn’t completely tank.

Wilmslowboy

2,642 posts

154 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
£40k to £45k (plus running costs) over 3.5 years, is not too bad.

Circa £1k a month. (£1,500 a month with Warranty, service and maintenance costs)

I was recently speaking with a Lambo Perf owner who reckons his car has cost him, £4k a month, and a 911 owner at £1,800 a month.


Wacky Racer

31,948 posts

195 months

Sunday 17th November
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To the average person those figures sound ridiculous.

However, if you are a Premiership footballer or the like, it's beer money.

Rameez-v57b3

34 posts

17 months

Sunday 17th November
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I seriously don't get why people expect free motoring at supercar level or are close to it as possible.

Across the range, a Mclaren will lose more money than the other brands but purchase prices and value for money vs other brands they are at the forefront of tech and really do offer good value for money.

The only cars holding decent value are Porsche RS cars and even they too are softening, for a 570 buying one around 90k shouldn't see you lose too much vs value and performance offered compared to rivals and entry prices.

Wilmslowboy

2,642 posts

154 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
Wacky Racer said:
To the average person those figures sound ridiculous.

However, if you are a Premiership footballer or the like, it's beer money.
The average person is not (or shouldn't be) buying a super car with a £200k+ List price.

When a £35k BMW / Merc / Audi averages out at £400 a month on PCP, why wouldn't a car with a value three times as high, cost three times as much a month ?

As the poster above suggested, people have short memories when it comes to ownership cost of cars, the last 6 years is not the norm.

They is many a v8 Ferrari owner who lost 20k a year. (Both the 360 and 430 dropped £60k in their first four years).

thecook101

693 posts

63 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.

Sarnie

6,235 posts

157 months

Sunday 17th November
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.
Genuine question; how much is a 430 warranty per year?

thecook101

693 posts

63 months

Monday 18th November
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Sarnie said:
thecook101 said:
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.
Genuine question; how much is a 430 warranty per year?
Don’t know. Very few people bother.

MDL111

3,964 posts

125 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
Sarnie said:
thecook101 said:
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.
Genuine question; how much is a 430 warranty per year?

It is somewhere in the 4K euro range - I can update with an exact figure when I get my bill. Manifolds and exhaust are among the things that are not covered ... so exactly the things my car needs/needed

My FF lost more than the 12C example above - 180k in 2015 (and from 2012 to 2015 it went from c 330k to 180k) now probably 90k if not less and warranty is somewhere between 4K and 5k

12pack

939 posts

116 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
laeumh said:
Whilst trying to do a bit of man maths to get into a McLaren I came across an old EVO magazine Feb 2016. Had a piece on buying a used 12C. Very interesting.
Recommended at about £105k as a good purchase for a 2011 12C. A well known independent quoted as saying " People are waking up to the fact that it has investment potential". I'm not for one minute suggesting any foul play here but it goes to show that you take a reasonable leap of faith buying McLaren.. at that time you'd have paid about £110k for a decent spec so trade today 3 years later lucky to get £65k - £45k dropped over 3 years plus 3x5k warranty .....Food for thought for sure...but I really want a 570...??maybe a GT3/458 is safer after all, even being more £ on initial price.
Are you buying new? If not, you would be benefiting from this same depreciation you are concerned about?

I believe part of the depreciation (at least on the Super Series) is the churn on new models. But the fact is that the older ones are still unique supercar propositions, with CF tubs, hydraulic steering and special suspension. While their value may drop, they will remain fantastic road driving propositions, even compared to the newer aluminum-chassis/roll bar competition.

355spiderguy

684 posts

119 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.
Ok. So lets see when a McLaren is the same age as your F430 ( say 14 years? ) what the asking price is and how much it depreciation it does yearly at that age?

Buy a McLaren 12c at the same price point as your F430...say £80K....and then see what happens with retained values...it will be a lot closer than you think.

Even if it loses very slightly more, i personally would rather drive a genuine modern supercar rather than an older Ferrari....i can say that with conviction as been there and done that for the last 15 or 16 years of uninterrupted Ferrari ownership...not sure how many constant years you have had a Ferrari or how many McLarens you have owned.

Including buying the extended warranty, my Mac has been cheaper to run this year than the last few years of Ferrari ownership, and i can say hand on heart it's been ultra reliable with not one 'niggle', creak, leak etc.

Buying a super series Mac around the £100k mark should see slower depreciation..the warranty is just part of the entry ticket as far as i am concerned.

458's might be advertised a lot higher and look like a safe proposition...however if you look closely most that are advertised currently have been advertised almost the whole year...quite a few from this time last year. The advertised price does not mean that is what they are worth. Regardless its the last N/A Ferrari, it has a serious price correction coming shortly as Ferrari are launching cars at the same rate as McLaren now which is why the Mac prices became unstable in the first place.

I still do not understand though why people are still shocked that supercars depreciate....must be because i am old and remember supercar ownership prior to 2010 when pcp's etc were something to do with electronics in a computer.

davek_964

6,218 posts

123 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
355spiderguy said:
I still do not understand though why people are still shocked that supercars depreciate....must be because i am old and remember supercar ownership prior to 2010 when pcp's etc were something to do with electronics in a computer.
I think it's basically because of the last few years. The reality is that most other marques did go up during that period - often significantly - and sadly, McLaren values went in the other direction, just as fast.

But I agree that I think that's changed, and and prices are beginning to behave more normally now. I commented in another thread last week, but I think people buying other marques now with the belief that their money is safe have a shock coming.

franki68

7,036 posts

169 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
Wilmslowboy said:
£40k to £45k (plus running costs) over 3.5 years, is not too bad.

Circa £1k a month. (£1,500 a month with Warranty, service and maintenance costs)

I was recently speaking with a Lambo Perf owner who reckons his car has cost him, £4k a month, and a 911 owner at £1,800 a month.


What 911 is that ? I have had a few and the most I have lost in a 12 month period was around 8k.

thecook101

693 posts

63 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
355spiderguy said:
thecook101 said:
Here we go again, “They all do that sir.”

Bullst. If you bought a 430 or 360 in 2016 you’d likely get over 80% of your money back today, and you’d unlikely have paid 3-5 grand a year for a warranty.
Ok. So lets see when a McLaren is the same age as your F430 ( say 14 years? ) what the asking price is and how much it depreciation it does yearly at that age?

Buy a McLaren 12c at the same price point as your F430...say £80K....and then see what happens with retained values...it will be a lot closer than you think.

Even if it loses very slightly more, i personally would rather drive a genuine modern supercar rather than an older Ferrari....i can say that with conviction as been there and done that for the last 15 or 16 years of uninterrupted Ferrari ownership...not sure how many constant years you have had a Ferrari or how many McLarens you have owned.

Including buying the extended warranty, my Mac has been cheaper to run this year than the last few years of Ferrari ownership, and i can say hand on heart it's been ultra reliable with not one 'niggle', creak, leak etc.

Buying a super series Mac around the £100k mark should see slower depreciation..the warranty is just part of the entry ticket as far as i am concerned.

458's might be advertised a lot higher and look like a safe proposition...however if you look closely most that are advertised currently have been advertised almost the whole year...quite a few from this time last year. The advertised price does not mean that is what they are worth. Regardless its the last N/A Ferrari, it has a serious price correction coming shortly as Ferrari are launching cars at the same rate as McLaren now which is why the Mac prices became unstable in the first place.

I still do not understand though why people are still shocked that supercars depreciate....must be because i am old and remember supercar ownership prior to 2010 when pcp's etc were something to do with electronics in a computer.
It's truly lovely that you have owned so many cars for so long - you should list them in your garage.

You miss my point though. Nothing against McLarens or any other marque, just tired of hearing "but they all do that" whenever Mac depreciation or issues are mentioned. It's not the same across the board.

WCZ

7,354 posts

142 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
It's truly lovely that you have owned so many cars for so long - you should list them in your garage.

You miss my point though. Nothing against McLarens or any other marque, just tired of hearing "but they all do that" whenever Mac depreciation or issues are mentioned. It's not the same across the board.
true but only really the classics, 458/430/360/gt3's/lambo SL's etc

new ferraris lose a lot of money these days

355spiderguy

684 posts

119 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
thecook101 said:
It's truly lovely that you have owned so many cars for so long - you should list them in your garage.

You miss my point though. Nothing against McLarens or any other marque, just tired of hearing "but they all do that" whenever Mac depreciation or issues are mentioned. It's not the same across the board.
Its never crossed my mind to look what someone has in their 'garage' part, so quite happy leaving mines blank.

I see your point very clearly.

You base depreciation on an older Ferrari that at around 14 years old has settled to a 'classic' status, and in your head you have a clear idea of how much it is worth...try calling a few Ferrari MD's or Ferrari specialists and ask for trade in value or outright bid...best sit down if you do, as it shall not start with an 8, maybe not even a 7.

I know this as i went through it last year on a extremely rare Ferrari in the right colours etc.

The car guys took a £70k hit in less than 12 months on a very lovely 488 in order to be out before the herd wants out, there is the rather nice white performante spider that is currently being offered around £110k less than list and around £45k less than 1st advertised 4 months ago. A Mercedes GTR follows a similar trend.

It is very similar across the board.

I was in Ferrari ownership when you could get a 355 for late £20's, 360 in the £30's 430 in high £40's and 'F1 Joe' was struggling to hawk his blue RHD 360CS for less than £60k...doubt it will ever get as bad as that again but who knows?

If a 12c spider was purchased today at £85k or a 650 spider at £99k, the values in a year would most likely be relative to what your 430 may be worth now and then next year...that is trade bid or p/x offer...not a 'what others are advertised at' or 'what's in your head' value.

No doubt the warranty extension cost shall be thrown up but as i said earlier i view that as the price to ride and as someone whom just paid £3700 for it last Monday, i have no concerns whatsoever about that cost.

For other Marque owners, why not just enjoy what you have instead of being so negative about a marque you don't have?

I still love Ferraris; i doubt i shall ever have another but it wouldn't cross my mind to get upset on a forum about them...




andyvdg

1,497 posts

231 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
I’m not normally one to comment on this type of topic but I thought I’d do a quick bit of maths (because I’m curious) on the depreciation of the different cars I was looking to buy in 2018 (I was tracking prices from 2017 so have data to look at). Retail then to trade now. This is what I would have lost :

458 £40k
F12 £70k
488 £80k
720S £90k (which I bought but will not sell for a while, it’s brilliant)

For running costs my F430 cost me £5k per year in serving and maintenance (owned it 2 years) - which will be the same as my McLaren when I extend the currently “free” new car warranty - so I’m happy with that. The warranty is comprehensive unlike the Ferrari equivalent which didn’t appear to cover the things that actually go wrong on a F430.

I do wonder whether it’s current Porsche owners that have to go into supercar ownership with their eyes wide open as my impression is that their cost of ownership is less at the moment.

Hope this helps someone in the world.




davek_964

6,218 posts

123 months

Monday 18th November
quotequote all
Surprised about the drop in 458 prices. Interesting though.