Looking for a decent LPG service place
Discussion
Can anyone point me in the direction of a decent LPG place?
Model: Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi with OMVL Dream XXI LPG conversion
I need a place who genuinely know what they are doing and understand the system. Preferably West Midlands.
At the moment I am left wondering if, really, these LPG conversions are best avoided, if you value the performance of the engine and the longevity of it too!
Last place I went to did not improve the system at all (keeps tripping out of LPG when I ask for some power, eg overtaking). They also fitted a new filter which started leaking after I went back to my office (had to tighten the jubilee clip) - which didn't fill me with confidence.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Model: Jeep Commander 5.7 Hemi with OMVL Dream XXI LPG conversion
I need a place who genuinely know what they are doing and understand the system. Preferably West Midlands.
At the moment I am left wondering if, really, these LPG conversions are best avoided, if you value the performance of the engine and the longevity of it too!
Last place I went to did not improve the system at all (keeps tripping out of LPG when I ask for some power, eg overtaking). They also fitted a new filter which started leaking after I went back to my office (had to tighten the jubilee clip) - which didn't fill me with confidence.
Any help greatly appreciated.
I live in Bucks but no one near could resolve the issue I had with my Volvo S60 Bifuel. Eventually, at the end of my tether and based on recommendations, I took it to John at Autogas 2000 in Thirsk. Luckily I had to go 'oop north for business but I left it with him for the morning and he had it sorted. It was a tiny washer that was missing and he found it and replaced it. Others on LPG sites that I used to frequent also raved about this diagnostic ability and knowledge. Might be a bit of overkill for a service but worth it if you have an issue that needs dealing with that others are struggling to resolve?
Edited by humpy999 on Thursday 18th February 18:44
JiggyJaggy said:
Thanks just what I needed! Have you hd any LPG servicing done there?
Funnily enough, it is on my to-do list - but I've been putting off going to London for a while.They installed the kit on my car for a previous owner and then sold the car to me after fitting a new tank and piping. I'm no expert, but it hasn't gone up in a fireball and it's never had an issue in my 12 months of ownership - which I understand for LPG is something of an achievement. So take that as a positive, for what it's worth.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.5430129,-0.02444...
Looked well-dodgy when I went there and the mechanics were all of the 'ignore you and mutter darkly in something foreign' type and I nearly walked away. But the owner seemed friendly and seemed to say the right things to make me think he was a decent guy who knew what he was talking about and had a clear knowledge of the product.
(Tell Ted that the guy who bought the Saab convertible from him recommended him)
SimonYorkshire is your man. Can be contacted via lpgc.co.uk I've travelled to him from down South and would not got to anyone else. I tried 3 local'ish guys who were recommended and came away having wasted my money with the same experience as yourself. Simon is old school, he knows his stuff and is a proper LPG service guy as opposed to just a simple installer who doesn't know the first thing about diagnostics. The journey will be 100% worth it.
A decent LPG install is, well, decent and conversely, a poor one will be just that. Had a Prins system put on our Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi just after buying it 5 years ago. Not missed a beat. No drop in performance that I can detect when manually switching between LPG and petrol either.
Converted loads of 5.7, 6.1 and 6.4 Hemis, the most recent 6.4 last week in a late model Jeep SRT8. All my conversions run exactly the same on LPG as on petrol too ;-)
I fit a wide range of systems including Prins but these days I'd seldom advise Prins. Prins was a great system back in the day when most LPG injectors couldn't hold a candle to the Keihin injectors that Prins uses, but more recently there's been a wide range of other great injectors that don't have the physical limitations of Keihin injectors. Prins don't actually make Keihin injectors, just about any system that used Keihin injectors back in the days when other injectors were not as good would have earned the same reputation that Prins still enjoys but more due to the injectors than any other aspect. To highlight this - There was a system called Lima that used all the same components as Prins except it didn't use Keihin injectors, Lima never earned the same reputation as Prins, instead it has severe shortfalls due to the lack of ability of functionality of Prins ECU's. The problem with Keihin injectors for many modern vehicles these days is that they are simply too big to fit in the ideal location around a lot of modern engines. Components and calibration aside, one of the major aspects effecting LPG system performance is pipe length between LPG injectors and correct gas entry point on the engine inlet manifold, the correct location is very close to the petrol injectors and just about as close to the engine inlet valves as possible but you can't keep those pipes short if the design/size of the injectors themselves means you can't get them as close as you could smaller injectors. The Prins reducers are OK but Prins electronics are very lacking in features that other systems have and some of those features can make all the difference, particularly on some model vehicles. In my view the worst handicap of Prins and BRC systems is the installers that fit them, particularly in the case of Prins they seem to aim for a dealer network comprising mostly established garages that are more accustomed to doing general mechanical work than full time vehicle LPG system installers and it shows, because Prins and BRC installers seem much more likely to struggle when fitting any other brand of system and even struggle to diagnose problems that occur on their own installs if a problem occurs down the line. I regard Prins and BRC installers more as fitters than installers who enjoy a bit of hand helping from their suppliers, which is just as well because without the hand holding a lot of them would really struggle. To be really good at a job it helps to do it full time, if you're going to be fitting components it helps to know how to compare characteristics of different components and how they compare against each other, then you can move on to selecting components to best suit specific vehicles rather than fitting the same parts to every vehicle regardless of it's spec and not really knowing why some bloke at the suppliers suggested injectors with a yellow dot on the side and 2.1 bar reducer pressure. Even the most recent importer of the system seems unaware of how it compares to other systems - when Prins VSI2 came out a few years ago he was hyping it as the best thing since sliced bread, what with all it's new features such as ability to compensate for rpm as well as engine load and to switch individual cylinders back to petrol (which helps check injectors are all flowing the same during diagnostics). I couldn't believe they didn't know other systems had had all those capabilities and a great many more on top for well over a decade.
Simon
I fit a wide range of systems including Prins but these days I'd seldom advise Prins. Prins was a great system back in the day when most LPG injectors couldn't hold a candle to the Keihin injectors that Prins uses, but more recently there's been a wide range of other great injectors that don't have the physical limitations of Keihin injectors. Prins don't actually make Keihin injectors, just about any system that used Keihin injectors back in the days when other injectors were not as good would have earned the same reputation that Prins still enjoys but more due to the injectors than any other aspect. To highlight this - There was a system called Lima that used all the same components as Prins except it didn't use Keihin injectors, Lima never earned the same reputation as Prins, instead it has severe shortfalls due to the lack of ability of functionality of Prins ECU's. The problem with Keihin injectors for many modern vehicles these days is that they are simply too big to fit in the ideal location around a lot of modern engines. Components and calibration aside, one of the major aspects effecting LPG system performance is pipe length between LPG injectors and correct gas entry point on the engine inlet manifold, the correct location is very close to the petrol injectors and just about as close to the engine inlet valves as possible but you can't keep those pipes short if the design/size of the injectors themselves means you can't get them as close as you could smaller injectors. The Prins reducers are OK but Prins electronics are very lacking in features that other systems have and some of those features can make all the difference, particularly on some model vehicles. In my view the worst handicap of Prins and BRC systems is the installers that fit them, particularly in the case of Prins they seem to aim for a dealer network comprising mostly established garages that are more accustomed to doing general mechanical work than full time vehicle LPG system installers and it shows, because Prins and BRC installers seem much more likely to struggle when fitting any other brand of system and even struggle to diagnose problems that occur on their own installs if a problem occurs down the line. I regard Prins and BRC installers more as fitters than installers who enjoy a bit of hand helping from their suppliers, which is just as well because without the hand holding a lot of them would really struggle. To be really good at a job it helps to do it full time, if you're going to be fitting components it helps to know how to compare characteristics of different components and how they compare against each other, then you can move on to selecting components to best suit specific vehicles rather than fitting the same parts to every vehicle regardless of it's spec and not really knowing why some bloke at the suppliers suggested injectors with a yellow dot on the side and 2.1 bar reducer pressure. Even the most recent importer of the system seems unaware of how it compares to other systems - when Prins VSI2 came out a few years ago he was hyping it as the best thing since sliced bread, what with all it's new features such as ability to compensate for rpm as well as engine load and to switch individual cylinders back to petrol (which helps check injectors are all flowing the same during diagnostics). I couldn't believe they didn't know other systems had had all those capabilities and a great many more on top for well over a decade.
Simon
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Sunday 23 July 14:59
Chris-S said:
It was the use of the Keihin injectors that led me to pick the Prins system. I was considering a few options for the controller but was adamant about the injectors.
Thanks for that insight though, always good to hear from someone who actually knows about the topic!
Cheers Chris. Thanks for that insight though, always good to hear from someone who actually knows about the topic!
I can see the logic in that, though as said, these days many injectors are as accurate and reliable as Keihin injectors but a fraction of the price. I have many failing and failed Keihin injectors here that I've replaced on Prins setups (and Prins reducers, injectors, sensors, ECU's and injector switching / emulation units!) and Keihin can be anything up to about £80 for a single injector, while modern comparable injectors might be a quarter of the price... So could replace modern injectors 4 times for the cost of replacing a set of Keihin on a V8 once. 100000 Miles down the line neither type are likely to go far wrong but I could see a point for changing a set of either type as part of a preventative maintenance schedule at that mileage.Where the cost of doing that with Keihin might be considered not really viable, the cost wouldn't be so bad with other injectors... and I know which I'd expect to work best after 100000 miles out of brand new other injectors or 100000 mile Keihin injectors. Even if the other injectors needed to be changed at 100000 miles while Keihin were still good, an owner would still have saved £480 by going with other injectors that would see through for the next 100000 miles. There have been a number of reports of Jeep V8's (particularly) and other engines suffering VSR when running Prins systems when the same model vehicles never suffer VSR when fitted with other (none Prins) systems, which may boil down to lean calibration under high load open loop running conditions on the Prins setups, repeated among various Prins setups on the same model engine by various installers because said installers all went with the same map as advised by the supplier or one of the Prins installers. There was discussion on this on LPG forum but it was a while ago now. Keihin with a more advanced ECU will make for a better system than all Prins full stop, but for most modern engines that will still usually leave the aspect of the overly large Keihin injectors.
Simon
Edited by SimonYorkshire on Wednesday 26th July 15:32
We're in danger of hijacking this thread....but I hope it's at least pertinent so I'll carry on 
Again, thanks for that insight, interesting stuff. Back when I was researching this I did read some issues with the smaller Jeep V8 engines and VSR, mine is the 5.7 which at the time I was doing this, was considered to be immune.....but being paranoid, I took advantage of a free offer to have the valve lubrication system installed on mine. Yes it adds a wee bit to running costs but I figured it was cheap insurance.
I take your point about the choice of cheap injectors twice vs expensive ones once, but again, at the time I did mine, there seemed to be a choice of Keihin or garbage. I saw lots of folk having issues with all sorts of different systems but the same cheap injectors, the cheap injectors being the problem.
As with most topics, things move on so it's good to know there are good alternatives now. That said, I've had no issues with the system on mine, although to be fair, I do few miles and I really don't expect to have any problems.
Again, thanks for that insight, interesting stuff. Back when I was researching this I did read some issues with the smaller Jeep V8 engines and VSR, mine is the 5.7 which at the time I was doing this, was considered to be immune.....but being paranoid, I took advantage of a free offer to have the valve lubrication system installed on mine. Yes it adds a wee bit to running costs but I figured it was cheap insurance.
I take your point about the choice of cheap injectors twice vs expensive ones once, but again, at the time I did mine, there seemed to be a choice of Keihin or garbage. I saw lots of folk having issues with all sorts of different systems but the same cheap injectors, the cheap injectors being the problem.
As with most topics, things move on so it's good to know there are good alternatives now. That said, I've had no issues with the system on mine, although to be fair, I do few miles and I really don't expect to have any problems.
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