How long do you think Till There are Proper Electric cars?
Discussion
babatunde said:
I keep using "paradigm shift" a vehicle that never needs routine servicing, where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.
Tesla recommends annual or 12.5k mile servicing, that's nearly twice as often as most cars.Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.
Your Parafigm shift is not an EV by your definition.
Heres Johnny said:
babatunde said:
I keep using "paradigm shift" a vehicle that never needs routine servicing, where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.
Tesla recommends annual or 12.5k mile servicing, that's nearly twice as often as most cars.Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.
Your Parafigm shift is not an EV by your definition.
Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.----- I think you are slightly confused, cost per mile for fuel is what you need to compare, for a 40mpg car thats approx 11p a mile, economy 10 is approx 10p/KWh so 2p a mile 80% less,
babatunde said:
Heres Johnny said:
babatunde said:
I keep using "paradigm shift" a vehicle that never needs routine servicing, where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.
Tesla recommends annual or 12.5k mile servicing, that's nearly twice as often as most cars.Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.
Your Parafigm shift is not an EV by your definition.
Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.----- I think you are slightly confused, cost per mile for fuel is what you need to compare, for a 40mpg car thats approx 11p a mile, economy 10 is approx 10p/KWh so 2p a mile 80% less,
You also said.. "..where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.." well, that's exactly the case now. Petrol is as cheap as electricity per mile before govt taxation, its because we have 70%+ taxation on fuel is it so expensive..
hunter 66 said:
Well after 3 months of ownership ..... no range issues , great to use and drive .... only problem is Ferrari in cobwebs on roadside ..... it just feels so dated now ..and I like burning fuel but now just for fun
I know, owner since Dec 15 and racking up over 30k miles a year. I'm a supporter but it does nobody any favours to make false promises or make false statements (not saying you have).
Incidentally if anybody is after 2.6s to 60 mph, Tesla have just knocked 10k off their used P90D cars. The plot below shows whats for sale and the you can buy a P90DL, albeit high miles but with 50k miles of warranty to go, for 81k. The equivalent new car is nearer 150k and a dealer demo car £120k.
http://tesla.savemylegs.com/forsale.html
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 26th June 12:32
Heres Johnny said:
babatunde said:
I keep using "paradigm shift" a vehicle that never needs routine servicing, where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.
Tesla recommends annual or 12.5k mile servicing, that's nearly twice as often as most cars.Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.
Your Parafigm shift is not an EV by your definition.
Heres Johnny said:
babatunde said:
Heres Johnny said:
babatunde said:
I keep using "paradigm shift" a vehicle that never needs routine servicing, where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.
Tesla recommends annual or 12.5k mile servicing, that's nearly twice as often as most cars.Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.
Your Parafigm shift is not an EV by your definition.
Charge an EV at home, you pay 5% VAT on the electricity and it costs about 3p a mile.
Fill up a 33mpg car and you £5 includes £4 of tax. Or before tax, 3p per mile.----- I think you are slightly confused, cost per mile for fuel is what you need to compare, for a 40mpg car thats approx 11p a mile, economy 10 is approx 10p/KWh so 2p a mile 80% less,
You also said.. "..where your cost of fuel is negligible, your major cost will be govt taxation.." well, that's exactly the case now. Petrol is as cheap as electricity per mile before govt taxation, its because we have 70%+ taxation on fuel is it so expensive..
98elise said:
The service details are on their website. It's all very simple basic stuff like rotate tyres, check wiper blades etc.
There's more to it that that - there are fluid changes at various times and they're economical in saying the spec of the fluid or how to change for instance. Then there's the diagnostic equipment to read codes etc. They were criticised for using their own standard which meant investigations in the fatal crash last year difficult and reliant on Tesla decoding their own data. Don't get me wrong, I doubt its rocket science but do you not feel it odd in any way that they have a recommended service interval much lower than most other cars? They went through a spell of changing the 12v batter EVERY year on the service to reduce 12V battery issues. They've had issues with the calibration of cameras. They've had whining motors that have been replaced - they do a lot of preventative stuff during service, in part because they're learning, but also because stuff has been going wrong (although thankfully rarely to the point it leaves someone stranded). I know of plenty of people who have reached 50k miles without a service - seems mad to me given they spent 90k+ on a car and want to skip alignment, brake fluid, coolants, air ducts are clear, etc. because a man in the pub told them it was ok.
Heres Johnny said:
skip alignment, brake fluid, coolants, air ducts are clear, etc. because a man in the pub told them it was ok.
what? i've had cars for 5 to 10 years and never had to do "alignment" or what ever stupid stuff they think you might need.Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
Max_Torque said:
what? i've had cars for 5 to 10 years and never had to do "alignment" or what ever stupid stuff they think you might need.
Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
You know all about a Tesla then? Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
What coolant would you put in a battery cooling system?
Where are the air ducts around the battery? Are some of them beneath the car and can get clogged with mud? Have you ever heard a Tesla when all the fans are going full chat when attached to a super charger? They ain't quiet and louder than any car cooling system I've ever heard, Heat management is a major component of the car design.
What about the drive units? You're an expert on electric motors too because you play with your scaletrix? There was a poll on the largest Tesla forum that reported the majority of owners needed at least one, and often more motors replaced within 30k miles. They've introduced replacement oil as part of the service since top try and mitigate this.
Its nothing like servicing a car, but its not a TV either that sits on the wall and needs nothing doing to it.
And if you're following the owners group, a guys battery is failing... can;t drive hard (whatever that means) and they have no stock to get him a replacement.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 26th June 16:23
Heres Johnny said:
Max_Torque said:
what? i've had cars for 5 to 10 years and never had to do "alignment" or what ever stupid stuff they think you might need.
Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
You know all about a Tesla then? Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
What coolant would you put in a battery cooling system?
Where are the air ducts around the battery? Are some of them beneath the car and can get clogged with mud? Have you ever heard a Tesla when all the fans are going full chat when attached to a super charger? They ain't quiet and louder than any car cooling system I've ever heard, Heat management is a major component of the car design.
What about the drive units? You're an expert on electric motors too because you play with your scaletrix? There was a poll on the largest Tesla forum that reported the majority of owners needed at least one, and often more motors replaced within 30k miles. They've introduced replacement oil as part of the service since top try and mitigate this.
Its nothing like servicing a car, but its not a TV either that sits on the wall and needs nothing doing to it.
And if you're following the owners group, a guys battery is failing... can;t drive hard (whatever that means) and they have no stock to get him a replacement.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 26th June 16:23
Where does a Tesla need motor oil? The motor is a 3Phase induction motor and will be completely dry other than some grease in the shaft bearings.
EV's are much simpler than ICE's to maintain, and should be vastly more reliable. I'm basing that on extensive experience of maintaining all manner of very complex electrical and mechanical systems.
Reports on replacement motors and the poll. I think there was a different one which included zero replacements but this will give a feel for the situation.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit...
No idea where you put the oil, there is gearing (albeit fixed ratio) so maybe in there, there is also obviously various bearings but you'd think they were sealed for life or took grease.
Then there's the battery issues
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90dl-batt...
They are relatively simple but Tesla push them to their limit at times. As a result they impose limits, fast charge on a super charger too often and they limit the max charge rate, launch the car too often, they lower you max power permanently, only to sometimes reverse that if there's a big enough uproar.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit...
No idea where you put the oil, there is gearing (albeit fixed ratio) so maybe in there, there is also obviously various bearings but you'd think they were sealed for life or took grease.
Then there's the battery issues
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90dl-batt...
They are relatively simple but Tesla push them to their limit at times. As a result they impose limits, fast charge on a super charger too often and they limit the max charge rate, launch the car too often, they lower you max power permanently, only to sometimes reverse that if there's a big enough uproar.
Heres Johnny said:
Max_Torque said:
what? i've had cars for 5 to 10 years and never had to do "alignment" or what ever stupid stuff they think you might need.
Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
You know all about a Tesla then? Coolants in EV don't age very much (they don't age that much in ICEs despite running at much higher temperatures), "air ducts" are clear? er, have a look in the grill, any dead sheep / hedges shopping trolleys in there? No, thought not. And the 2 year brake fluid change is, in most of the world (certainly the uk) also pointless, because we don't have that much humidity!
What coolant would you put in a battery cooling system?
Where are the air ducts around the battery? Are some of them beneath the car and can get clogged with mud? Have you ever heard a Tesla when all the fans are going full chat when attached to a super charger? They ain't quiet and louder than any car cooling system I've ever heard, Heat management is a major component of the car design.
What about the drive units? You're an expert on electric motors too because you play with your scaletrix? There was a poll on the largest Tesla forum that reported the majority of owners needed at least one, and often more motors replaced within 30k miles. They've introduced replacement oil as part of the service since top try and mitigate this.
Its nothing like servicing a car, but its not a TV either that sits on the wall and needs nothing doing to it.
And if you're following the owners group, a guys battery is failing... can;t drive hard (whatever that means) and they have no stock to get him a replacement.
Edited by Heres Johnny on Monday 26th June 16:23
Heres Johnny said:
Reports on replacement motors and the poll. I think there was a different one which included zero replacements but this will give a feel for the situation.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit...
No idea where you put the oil, there is gearing (albeit fixed ratio) so maybe in there, there is also obviously various bearings but you'd think they were sealed for life or took grease.
Then there's the battery issues
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90dl-batt...
They are relatively simple but Tesla push them to their limit at times. As a result they impose limits, fast charge on a super charger too often and they limit the max charge rate, launch the car too often, they lower you max power permanently, only to sometimes reverse that if there's a big enough uproar.
I'm not seeing anything there that indicates the majority of Teslas needed a replacement drive unit? Electric motors are very very reliable so once any until teething problems are ironed out they will have a motor design that will run reliably for 3 or 4 times then life of an ICE.https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/drive-unit...
No idea where you put the oil, there is gearing (albeit fixed ratio) so maybe in there, there is also obviously various bearings but you'd think they were sealed for life or took grease.
Then there's the battery issues
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/p90dl-batt...
They are relatively simple but Tesla push them to their limit at times. As a result they impose limits, fast charge on a super charger too often and they limit the max charge rate, launch the car too often, they lower you max power permanently, only to sometimes reverse that if there's a big enough uproar.
On the oils front, to be fair you said drive unit not motor, so will include the "gearbox". That will most certainly be oil filled as its essentially a conventional diff.
Heres Johnny said:
There was a poll on the largest Tesla forum that reported the majority of owners needed at least one, and often more motors replaced within 30k miles.
That poll has less than 500 responses in total. Even rounding numbers up and adding a few would seem to indicate about 0.003% of Model S production has been affected, so not what I'd call a majority.Have you had a bad experience with your Model S? You seem quite negative about them.
It's also worth pointing out that the battery pack and drive units are warranted for unlimited miles.
FurtiveFreddy said:
Heres Johnny said:
There was a poll on the largest Tesla forum that reported the majority of owners needed at least one, and often more motors replaced within 30k miles.
That poll has less than 500 responses in total. Even rounding numbers up and adding a few would seem to indicate about 0.003% of Model S production has been affected, so not what I'd call a majority.Have you had a bad experience with your Model S? You seem quite negative about them.
It's also worth pointing out that the battery pack and drive units are warranted for unlimited miles.
I've no real problem with the car, but I'm not a fan boy, and the opposite of fan boy is not an EV hater. I've actually put a lot of time creating a guide to buying and owning a Tesla that I consider to be balanced, I track every car for sale - on average it looks like only 4 sell a week yet there are 80+ for sale.I understand the low depreciation statements people make and know it's not completely true if you buy today . I've been an active follower for over two years. We could talk about sky high repair costs and you'll see that insurance companies are starting to refuse cover, we can talk about safety yet they kept it quiet that emergency breaking wasn't active, we can talk about misleading marketing claims and they're in court again over the latest auto pilot. Or that premium audio is not as good as it was. Or the high tech claims fall flat on headlights, surround view, head up display, active suspension, and do on, but then they make falcon doors that will fail to detect an overhead structure in a multi story car park There's a lot of good in the cars, but I want people to have a measured and balanced opinion before dropping up to 150k on a car. Be critical and I'll put the positive, be gushing that no other car will do and I'll point out the foibles.
Want to talk about real battery capacities?
Want to talk about hidden throttling on super chargers if you use them too often?
Want to talk about free charging debacle they took away, then gave back then limited in a world of confused messages?
EAP silky is now out according to Musk but it's introduced arbitrary lower speed limits and for some the cars brake randomly checking 20mph off their speed.
If you're not experienced the immediate throttle and torque, it's something to behold, but when the sat nav wants to take you in a massive diversion, its painful.
Heres Johnny said:
Want to talk about real battery capacities?
Want to talk about hidden throttling on super chargers if you use them too often?
Want to talk about free charging debacle they took away, then gave back then limited in a world of confused messages?
EAP silky is now out according to Musk but it's introduced arbitrary lower speed limits and for some the cars brake randomly checking 20mph off their speed.
If you're not experienced the immediate throttle and torque, it's something to behold, but when the sat nav wants to take you in a massive diversion, its painful.
Personally, if I ever get the Model 3 I reserved, I'm not even interested in the autonomous driving functions and most of our journeys will relatively short so all of those issues are irrelevant to me.
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