New Lithium batteries with 3 times the storage

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

EVs are some of the heaviest cars on the road, a Model S is about 400kg more than a bmw 7 series.

Compare performance which the BMW cannot match. Get a saloon car with equal performance to the Tesla and that includes road holding (the batteries are low giving a lower centre of gravity and superior handling) and it will be heavy.
The BMW is with an empty tank.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 11:29

[otolith]

I agree with the analysis of more energy to build, less to use, less overall, but that and the weight are not particularly to do with how much metal is in them. There are other things which are quite heavy and quite energy intensive to manufacture.

[RayTay]

otolith said:

I agree with the analysis of more energy to build, less to use, less overall, but that and the weight are not particularly to do with how much metal is in them. There are other things which are quite heavy and quite energy intensive to manufacture.

EVs:

1. Far less parts in an EV, so less energy to make.
2. Weight is meaningless in the construction of an EV as much of the battery is not energy intensive to make
3. IC engines waste 80% of the energy in the tank
4. IC engines are noisy.
5. IC engines produce oil pollution in used engine oil which has to be treated.
6. IC engines pollute.
7. IC engines ruin lungs of people.
8. IC engines blacken buildings.
9. IC engines produce brake pad dust ruining lungs.
10. EVs have superior road handling due to lower centre of gravity.
11. Electric motors are 95% efficient.
12. Electric motors are small.
13. EVs do not need complex, large, energy sapping transmissions.
14. Battery technology is improving at a rapid pace with x2 and x3 storage breakthroughs.
15. EVs can be charged at the kerbside while you are doing other tasks.
16. EVs can be charged at home while you are doing other tasks.
17. EVs can be charged at fast charging stations.
18. IC engines can only be charged with fuel at dedicated filling stations with many closed during late hours.
19. Petrol stations are smelly with spilt fuel on the floor in most cases.
20. IC engines use fuel that pollutes in manufacture and running the vehicle.
21. EVs can use clean renewable energy.
22. EVs can store energy for the home in case of power outages. Juts plug into the house supply.
23. EVs can use off peak electricity to charge.
24. Per mile EVs are far cheaper to run than IC engine vehicles.
25. EVs do not store highly volatile fuel on board.
26. EVs are simple: an electric motor and a bank of batteries and some control management units.
27. EVs can have electric motors integrated in the hub and masses of space is released in the cabin.
28. EVs can have lower bonnet lines as they have no large lumps of metal engines at the front, for better wind drag and economy
29. EVs can be smaller in exterior dimensions using less metal to make it.
30. etc
31. etc

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:26

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

If you really want to wind up a Tesla owner who thinks the sun shines out of Elons exhaust pipe
https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2016/09/ele...

Oh my God they scrape the barrel don't they! And IC engined cars have no parts made by cheap or child labour? What world are these people in? Found out who makes your GAP sweater?

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

there is still a lot more "stuff" to make in an EV.

Oh my God. There is little in an EV car. An electric motor and a bank of batteries and some control management units. Have the electric motors integrated in the hub and masses of space is released in the cabin. This can lower bonnet lines for better wind drag, safety in handling and economy and gives more space inside for people and luggage. This can lead to a smaller car in exterior dimensions using less metal to make it. Cars will look different in the future.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:19

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

Heres Johnny said:

EVs are some of the heaviest cars on the road, a Model S is about 400kg more than a bmw 7 series.

Compare performance which the BMW cannot match. Get a saloon car with equal performance to the Tesla and that includes road holding (the batteries are low giving a lower centre of gravity and superior handling) and it will be heavy.
The BMW is with an empty tank.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 11:29

Here we go - lets define "performance"... its a characteristic of the motor that gives it instant shove. Go for a spirited drive in a Tesla and it will complain a lot, and I mean a lot. I overheated a 90D in 25 mins on the Isle of Man TT course. The P models use the same battery so they'd just overheat more quickly. Handling.. hmm... the comments are usually "it hangs on surprisingly well for a two and a half ton car..". They understeer for a start, probably no different to many other big exec cars set up for safety. There is virtually no ability to control on the throttle either.

I got mine in 2015 and covered over 30k miles in the first year, so I have a lot of miles under the belt. Lets not kid ourselves these are anything more than a traffic light show pony in the pistonheads world of performance cars. Put yourself in an M5, an AMG E class or a RS6 and on the move down a moderately twisty road those cars would leave pretty much all of them for dead. I've not tried a P100D but then thats a 150 grand car - I might be tempted into a used Ferrari FF at that sort of money.

They're not bad at all, but lets not put it on a pedestal. An Audi RS6 is about the same price a 100D but everybody seems to mentally compare them to a A6 bi turbo diesel.

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

Heres Johnny said:

there is still a lot more "stuff" to make in an EV.

Oh my God. There is little in an EV car. An electric motor and a bank of batteries and some control management units. Have the electric motors integrated in the hub and masses of space is released in the cabin. This can lower bonnet lines for better wind drag, safety in handling and economy and gives more space inside for people and luggage. This can lead to a smaller car in exterior dimensions using less metal to make it. Cars will look different in the future.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:19

So... given you can do all that, they chose to make it that heavy? I've never said they can't, but at the moment they don't.

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

Here we go - lets define "performance"..

An overheating motor is not a characteristic of electric motors. That can be designed out. The low centre of gravity does improve road holding for sure and makes the car safer and designers take advantage of that. Show me a 2.5 ton car that accelerate like the Teslas? I doubt there is one. In 10 years time the Tesla may be only 1.5 tons with new battery set.

Also with battery breakthroughs the EV will be lighter or have more range. The best is yet to come with EVs, and it come will sooner than you think. The IC car is at the end of its lifespan. Its sell by date is nearing. The advanced world is gearing up for EVs in cars and infrastructure. They are coming big time and will knock cobs off IC cars in every aspect. Economist who specialise in the field state that the EVs tipping point will be around 6 to 8 years.

[otolith]

RayTay said:

otolith said:

I agree with the analysis of more energy to build, less to use, less overall, but that and the weight are not particularly to do with how much metal is in them. There are other things which are quite heavy and quite energy intensive to manufacture.

EVs:

1. Far less parts in an EV, so less energy to make.
2. Weight is meaningless in the construction of an EV as much of the battery is not energy intensive to make
3. IC engines waste 80% of the energy in the tank
4. IC engines are noisy.
5. IC engines produce oil pollution in used engine oil which has to be treated.
6. IC engines pollute.
7. IC engines ruin lungs of people.
8. IC engines blacken buildings.
9. IC engines produce brake pad dust ruining lungs.
10. EVs have superior road handling due to lower centre of gravity.
11. Electric motors are 95% efficient.
12. Electric motors are small.
13. EVs do not need complex, large, energy sapping transmissions.
14. Battery technology is improving at a rapid pace with x2 and x3 storage breakthroughs.
15. EVs can be charged at the kerbside while you are doing other tasks.
16. EVs can be charged at home while you are doing other tasks.
17. EVs can be charged at fast charging stations.
18. IC engines can only be charged with fuel at dedicated filling stations with many closed during late hours.
19. Petrol stations are smelly with spilt fuel on the floor in most cases.
20. IC engines use fuel that pollutes in manufacture and running the vehicle.
21. EVs can use clean renewable energy.
22. EVs can store energy for the home in case of power outages. Juts plug into the house supply.
23. EVs can use off peak electricity to charge.
24. Per mile EVs are far cheaper to run than IC engine vehicles.
25. EVs do not store highly volatile fuel on board.
26. EVs are simple: an electric motor and a bank of batteries and some control management units.
27. EVs can have electric motors integrated in the hub and masses of space is released in the cabin.
28. EVs can have lower bonnet lines as they have no large lumps of metal engines at the front, for better wind drag and economy
29. EVs can be smaller in exterior dimensions using less metal to make it.
30. etc
31. etc

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:26

Figure 2

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es903729a

It's a seven year old paper, things may have improved since then, of course, so if you have some newer peer reviewed academic papers saying otherwise I will gladly adjust my view

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

So... given you can do all that, they chose to make it that heavy? I've never said they can't, but at the moment they don't.

Battery technology is changing and they will not be that heavy in the near future. EV makers make them to appeal to the aesthetics of today - they look like IC engined cars. If the designers were told to maximise everything, an EV would look very different to what we have today. But people would not buy the odd looking shape as it is not what they used to. Look at 1920s cars. Then they thought they looked gorgeous then. We think they look horrid.

I admire BMW for adopting semi-radical looks in the i3.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:50

[RayTay]

otolith said:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es903729a

It's a seven year old paper, things may have improved since then, of course,

It is too old. Matters have moved on in motor design and battery advancements. x2 and x 3 breakthroughs. You been continuously been told this but it does not sink in.

Look at my 1 to 31 point list. I am sure I can add many more if I tried.

[otolith]

RayTay said:

otolith said:

http://pubs.acs.org/doi/pdf/10.1021/es903729a

It's a seven year old paper, things may have improved since then, of course,

It is too old. Matters have moved on in motor design and battery advancements. x2 and x 3 breakthroughs. You been continuously been told this but it does not sink in.

Look at my 1 to 31 point list. I am sure I can add many more if I tried.

With respect, most of your list relates to why they are less polluting in use, not the energy costs of building them. I agree that they are more efficient in use, and that as a result the overall lifetime energy usage is lower (as the diagram in the paper I cited demonstrates).

I must have missed the links you posted to peer reviewed academic papers, though, apologies for that, can you post them again please?

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

Heres Johnny said:

So... given you can do all that, they chose to make it that heavy? I've never said they can't, but at the moment they don't.

Battery technology is changing and they will not be that heavy in the near future. EV makers make them to appeal to the aesthetics of today - they look like IC engined cars. If the designers were told to maximise everything, an EV would look very different to what we have today. But people would not buy the odd looking shape as it is not what they used to. Look at 1920s cars. Then they thought they looked gorgeous then. We think they look horrid.

I admire BMW for adopting semi-radical looks in the i3.

Edited by RayTay on Friday 14th July 12:50

yes yes yes... I know its changing... but its not changed yet in production EV cars

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

n overheating motor is not a characteristic of electric motors. That can be designed out. The low centre of gravity does improve road holding for sure and makes the car safer and designers take advantage of that. Show me a 2.5 ton car that accelerate like the Teslas? I doubt there is one. In 10 years time the Tesla may be only 1.5 tons with new battery set.

Also with battery breakthroughs the EV will be lighter or have more range. The best is yet to come with EVs, and it come will sooner than you think. The IC car is at the end of its lifespan. Its sell by date is nearing. The advanced world is gearing up for EVs in cars and infrastructure. They are coming big time and will knock cobs off IC cars in every aspect. Economist who specialise in the field state that the EVs tipping point will be around 6 to 8 years.

The over heating is nothing to do with the motor, its got everything to do with the battery

We're not 10 years in the future though are we? So saying a Tesla will be 1.5T then is pointless.

Why do I need to show you a 2.5 ton car that can accelerate to 60 as quick as a Tesla? My point was its a one trick pony off the lights. From 30 mph there is plenty that can keep up with a Tesla. You watch any drag race and in the first second the tesla get the jump on its opposition, and the rest of the video the cars remain level and then the ice pulls back the gap.

I have no problem with Tesla. I only have issues with people over stating capability or justifying today's cars based on technology that is not yet commercially in production.

[RayTay]

otolith said:

With respect, most of your list relates to why they are less polluting in use,

That is enough. You have selective amnesia.

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

We're not 10 years in the future though are we? So saying a Tesla will be 1.5T then is pointless.

Far from pointless. In the coming years, well within our lifetimes, the EV will have transformed, while IC cars will have not moved and inch. The only advance in IC can be with rotary engines. They are being lined up for hybrid use. But most of the energy in the tanks is still wasted, just a little less than the past its sell by date piston/crank engines.

[Heres Johnny]

RayTay said:

Heres Johnny said:

We're not 10 years in the future though are we? So saying a Tesla will be 1.5T then is pointless.

Far from pointless. In the coming years, well within our lifetimes, the EV will have transformed, while IC cars will have not moved and inch. The only advance in IC can be with rotary engines. They are being lined up for hybrid use. But most of the energy in the tanks is still wasted, just a little less than the past its sell by date piston/crank engines.

Can you go back and comprehend which comments are made about current cars and which ones are made about the future. And then can you edit all your posts to be in the correct tense and relevant to what you are responding to.

An example:
There's a lot more metal in an ice.
Not really, there's a lot in a EV it's significantly heavier than an ice
In 10 years they'll be lighter
But we're talking now
But in the future...

[Mabbs9]

My mate is CTO of a Silicon Valley technology company. He says the one thing NOT advancing is battery technology. It is simply not keeping up with the rest of the sector.

[anonymous-user]

RayTay said:

20 years ago NO car could do 325 miles in range. That was a dream. They are here - they do it, is not `claimed`. Wise up.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_VL_76BoC8

Batteries in smart phones do last longer. In my 5 year old Samsung S2 the battery lasted only 3/4 of a day for me. I replaced the battery a year ago with a larger capacity and now it goes the whole day.

Edited by RayTay on Wednesday 5th July 14:03

A real comparison would be Note 2 to Note 7 - battery increase c 10%. That worked out well.....so well the Note 7R has the same size battery as the Note 7, but is only c3% increase to the Note 2.

Both phones are effectively the same size.

However during that time processor efficiency has massively increased.

[RayTay]

Heres Johnny said:

But we're talking now
But in the future...

Do you know about the latest battery advances?