Electric - It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you..
Discussion
Max_Torque said:
OldDuffer said:
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
NO IT ISN'T.a CNG drivetrain is monodirectional, meaning it can NEVER achieve the same consumption of energy as an EV (which recovers KE from it's mass). CNG is also a finite resource, and comes with a significant carbon footprint. Burning it in small (distributed) locations (ie in a car) means it's very hard to implement any carbon or waste heat capture / recuperation. It would be better, if you have to burn CNG, to do it on a large scale (high thermal efficiency) in a power station, with carbon capture of the exhaust gases, and using the low level waste heat for local domestic and business heating.
in a nutshell (because this is part of my job and a project I am on is going to be trialing SI gas trucks).
In theory, you should get 23% less CO2 from the fuel based on carbon-hydrogen ratio. However, you also cannot have a SI gas engine with diesel compression ratio and without a throttle. you need spark plugs (the limiting factor on compression) and a throttle (to run stoichiometric). You can have the power and the torque, but you cannot match the economy. So crica 7-8% CO2 reduction is about as good as you can reasonably expect.
Of course it suffers all the energy recovery woes of any other ICE.
Storage and range become an issue (LNG is better for this but trickier to handle in terms of filling and you can't leave your truck with a full tank lying around because it will all vent off and go bad).
They're banging on about bioLNG/bioCNG offering up the necessary Well-To-Wheel CO2 savings but from a report I saw (someone worked out the foot print of making, transporting and dispensing), bioCNG is actually no better than the stuff you get from the refinery.
On the other hand PM and NOX are much reduced (PM is literally zero I think) and as these are not lean burn there is less excess air about to produce NOx. You don't need DPFs or SCRs. Just a three-way cat. John Lewis run a decent fleet of gas trucks and are buying more. From all accounts the drivers actually really like them.
Our grid infrastructure lags way behind places like Germany and Italy though. They have a robust and widespread system. Fiat and VAG sell CNG versions of many popular cars and vans (you can buy a CNG powered Audi A4 if you want!). In the UK I'd say our gas refilling infrastructure for vehicles is in even worse shape than that of the charging infrastructure and costs for improving it are high. You can actually refill from your home gas supply, but it takes all night and you have to compress the gas from the relatively much lower mains pressure to the high pressure tank.
Similarly they can't just plonk a gas station anywhere. Normally it is best next to a high pressure gas main (cuts down on compressor power at the station)... or you onto installing and LNG station and trailering in the fuel every week.... so no improvement on the current petrol/diesel stations.
Downward said:
I just bought a 2 year old Leaf. Seems like the next year my range is going to reduce greatly.
Good job Nissan offer a battery warranty where if it loses 8% or whatever of its capacity within 5 years they replace them.
Get a LeafSpy app and dongle to keep tabs on the battery healthGood job Nissan offer a battery warranty where if it loses 8% or whatever of its capacity within 5 years they replace them.
As an aside, I have a basic statistical model of leaf battery deg based on mileage, age, number of charges, number of quick charges but there is more to it than this including ambient temperatures and driving style. Those who live in say Arizona see some pretty bad battery deg due to the high ambients in the summer months and I don't think the leaf uses any kind of active thermal management. I also saw some anecdotal evidence that the good old Italian tune up works for batteries
Cars like the Chevy Volt though have good battery health/life because they really did a good job on it. Its 16 kWh in size but you can only use 10.5 kWh. This means, roughly, that full charge is only 80% and empty is 20% and they can shuffle things about to maintain that 10.5 kWh. It also has an active thermal management with liquid cooling and you can only charge the thing at 3.3 kW max because it doesn't support any higher. All those things mean it has an easier life than say, a Leaf which doesn't feature active thermal management nor appears to have much "head room" built in.
What is the age of your leaf? and current mileage? and how many miles will you do in the next year? I could run that through my model.
ymwoods said:
mr_spock said:
I'm sure I don't have the same technical knowledge that you do on cells. However, I've been reading a lot about Tesla and Ampera cars to see if they would be of use. Ampera users report NO batter degradation. There are cars with over 200K miles still within spec. The design only charges to something like 80% (10KwH out of 16) so even if the battery degrades it shouldn't be noticeable to the user. Tesla, I understand, limit the amount of fast charging and will throttle charge rates at Superchargers to protect the battery.
If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
Tesla limit the amount of the battery that can be used both "to empty" and "to full" The car monitors and allows a certain amount of extra use of these "buffers" so no massive decrease in battery charge is noticed.If we then compare to a 15 year old car, how much MPG (and thus range) do we lose? My experience tells me that 10% is quite good. So, I can lose fuel storage (electric) or lose efficiency (petrol/diesel). And how much is an engine replacement? Not worth it to regain the efficiency I feel.
In effect, they chuck a 50% bigger battery on so when 50% of it degrades you still feel like its charging to 100%
Tesla just overspec the battery and adjust its lifespan by over-the-air updates.
It is a marketing trick.
OldDuffer said:
Electric cars. It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
The weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
Haha brilliant , funniest thing iv'e read in a long time. It amazes me how stupid the general public really are. Like it or not EV's will be the future.The weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 13th September 11:03
The longer they keep the fools out the EV's the better for the EV owners me thinks.
OldDuffer said:
I’m a design engineer. I work primarily on consumer white goods like washing machines. My last projects were hairdryers and toothbrushes.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.we need a better class of trolls
babatunde said:
"tympanic thermometer" translates as anal heat tester..... which is a pretty good description of this post
we need a better class of trolls
The problem with trolls is the degradation. They start out full of energy, but after a dozen or so posts they've run flat, and need a few days to recharge. After a year or so they've completely done their dash, and need to be recycled. we need a better class of trolls
ps Can the 12 YO post here themself? It may make more sense than grumblebum.
OldDuffer said:
I’m a design engineer. I work primarily on consumer white goods like washing machines. My last projects were hairdryers and toothbrushes.
In fairness my wife gets through hair dryers at quite an alarming rate and washing machines are notoriously crap so if thats all you're used to I can understand why you think nothing lasts. At the risk of feeding... a review of a 3 year old and 210k km tesla
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pQe5DLuaq0
and I love your last piece of work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMOjDZKIB4s
read an article of a 175,000 mile leaf, used as a taxi.
they've replaced tyres, wiper blades and one ball joint.
Show me a petrol/diesel car that has done 175k with such little running costs.
even if a £4-5k battery went ping, you'd still be quids in, re fuel and repair costs.
that car was permanently fast charged at the taxi base to be able to do its job.
they've replaced tyres, wiper blades and one ball joint.
Show me a petrol/diesel car that has done 175k with such little running costs.
even if a £4-5k battery went ping, you'd still be quids in, re fuel and repair costs.
that car was permanently fast charged at the taxi base to be able to do its job.
austinsmirk said:
read an article of a 175,000 mile leaf, used as a taxi.
they've replaced tyres, wiper blades and one ball joint.
Show me a petrol/diesel car that has done 175k with such little running costs.
even if a £4-5k battery went ping, you'd still be quids in, re fuel and repair costs.
that car was permanently fast charged at the taxi base to be able to do its job.
I'll better that. Took a taxi in Amsterdam - Tesla Model S. Speaking to the owner the car had covered 300,000km with just brakes and tyres being replaced. Seats were a little worn but not as much as you'd expect. The battery he reckoned had lost about 10% of it's effeciencythey've replaced tyres, wiper blades and one ball joint.
Show me a petrol/diesel car that has done 175k with such little running costs.
even if a £4-5k battery went ping, you'd still be quids in, re fuel and repair costs.
that car was permanently fast charged at the taxi base to be able to do its job.
OldDuffer said:
Electric cars. It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
The weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
What a load of bThe weak point... cells.
Unfortunately cells are not like mobile phones / wide-screen TVs / Laptops etc, they don't get twice as fast for half the price, half the weight and half the size every 2-3 years. Save for some improved chemistry they haven't truly improved for 85 years. The efficiency is still abysmal. Sorry, like any other cell they're good for 3-4 years, tops. Usually far, far less. See this yourself in your mobile. Go on tell me, how long do your mobile cells last before a charge is doing half what it did? So let me have this right, you want a car based on that?
Technical improvements my arse.
Now that die-sel in anything under three tons is getting its rightful kicking from the same taxation-system that created it, they're going to create another white-elephant, in electric.
(Rant) So when:
1) Our electric cars have three year old batteries that did 200 miles range new, but are soon sh*t for 50.
2) A new set of cells run to three times the used value of the cars they sit in.
3) They weigh a ton so don't stop.
4) The electricity cost used for 200 miles now does 50, but makes a big lump of toxic metals hot. lest we forget it still costs the same as it did to charge for 200 miles. Fine when a mobile phone battery gets old & tired, it just gets hot and you waste Milliwatts. In a car? Do you want that electricity bill?
5) With a shagged-cell to drag about (and stop) it’ll cost heaps to run.
What then?
(Rant off)
Lest we forget a need for road-pricing because the govenment feeds on fuel-duty, and it won't be getting any from electric. Our grid won't cope, it'll need beefing-up, so we'll wind-up, paying more for electricity anyway.
This whole fallacy ignores even basic school-boy physics. Electric power is an engineering fallacy put together by guardian reading morons that should have been left in a sandpit with a Tonka toy thus giving the rest of us a decent education. Clearly on them, theirs was wasted.
FFS, my 12 year old can tell you why it can't work. Worse, I understand that for something that is supposed to be green, but is far from it, you get tax-breaks to buy one?!
That Tesla thing is being sold by a snake-oil salesman, only you gotta admire his verve. It’s got comic appeal, and he seems to be getting away with it... handsomely.
For now.
It shouldn't need my 12 year old to tell you why it's a con...
On the other hand, CNG works and relative to EV it's clean
Edited by OldDuffer on Wednesday 13th September 11:03
ks
So let me get on message here. At the altar for electric cars, and the new religion, the Laws of Physics are different. All you need is faith.
1) Articulated lorries, coaches etc by virtue of bigger tyres etc etc all with the help of Mr. Musk's clever design parameters will soon be stopping in the same distance (or less) of lightweight hatchbacks and sports cars. All they need is Mr Musk's help. The inertia and squaring rules of kinetic energy have been beaten. You see, increase the weight in an electric car, as long as you double the brakes, and double the tyre sizes etc the effect on stopping distances remains linear.
All the other car manufacturers and development engineers are simpletons. So we ask, nay we demand an answer, why have they not discovered this before? Lives could have been saved.
2) If you're unfortunate enough to hit that motorway bridge support on the cusp of severe-injury speeds, with the length of your crumple-zone not being any longer than the aforementioned lightweight hatchback or sports car, don't worry. You'll actaully going to be better off. You see, despite the significant weight differential, you'll lose all that extra energy in the same space far more easily. Why is this so? Because this is an electric car. Better still, it is made by a bloke called Elon. The effect on your body to deal with the extra energy dissipation going on around you is also linear. Lest we forget, because of the previous stated 'tech' it stopped before it hit our 'bridge support' anyway. We can take comfort here, see what we did there? So best beloved, you're gong to be fine. All you need is faith.
3) Tesla HAS reinvented the battery and defeated the laws of physics, and chemistry. The jews have been waiting, now he is here. Musk is the Messiah.
it’s a standard workaround. Car batteries are spec’ed at double the amperage required to start the car they are in. Even on a cold Feb morn, few cars actually need even 40AH to start, yet they’ll have a 60AH or 80AH battery. Hence they still start a car, (just) at five years old. All you need is faith. Under the new religion this fact can be ignored, therefore and brace yourselves:
In effect, they chuck a 50% bigger battery on so when 50% of it degrades you still feel like its charging to 100%
This is heresy . The faithful must close their minds to blasphemy.
Some fool on here wrote:
Tesla just overspec the battery and adjust its lifespan by over-the-air updates.
Don’t listen. Also forget that you’ve rarely seen a car battery last more than five years, and forget any experience you’ve had with mobile phones, Tesla HAS reinvented the battery and defeated the laws of physics, and chemistry.
It’s all in the mystical ’tech’ and has nothing to do with software management of cells.
How dare anyone suggest such a thing?
So that’s all right then. I can go now, electric cars if sold by Mr Musk are not snake-oil. i stand corrected and humbly apologise, it is me that is the halfwit. it was me that was the unbelliever. Me that was incapable of thinking coherently. I beg your forgiveness, and I thought 'you' were gullible. Nay, like you, I now have the faith. He has risen.
As monks to the monastery of Musk let us prostrate ourselves at the altar before our icon, anoint it with exquisite bullshot. Bring on the national anthem.
All hail. Carry on.
1) Articulated lorries, coaches etc by virtue of bigger tyres etc etc all with the help of Mr. Musk's clever design parameters will soon be stopping in the same distance (or less) of lightweight hatchbacks and sports cars. All they need is Mr Musk's help. The inertia and squaring rules of kinetic energy have been beaten. You see, increase the weight in an electric car, as long as you double the brakes, and double the tyre sizes etc the effect on stopping distances remains linear.
All the other car manufacturers and development engineers are simpletons. So we ask, nay we demand an answer, why have they not discovered this before? Lives could have been saved.
2) If you're unfortunate enough to hit that motorway bridge support on the cusp of severe-injury speeds, with the length of your crumple-zone not being any longer than the aforementioned lightweight hatchback or sports car, don't worry. You'll actaully going to be better off. You see, despite the significant weight differential, you'll lose all that extra energy in the same space far more easily. Why is this so? Because this is an electric car. Better still, it is made by a bloke called Elon. The effect on your body to deal with the extra energy dissipation going on around you is also linear. Lest we forget, because of the previous stated 'tech' it stopped before it hit our 'bridge support' anyway. We can take comfort here, see what we did there? So best beloved, you're gong to be fine. All you need is faith.
3) Tesla HAS reinvented the battery and defeated the laws of physics, and chemistry. The jews have been waiting, now he is here. Musk is the Messiah.
it’s a standard workaround. Car batteries are spec’ed at double the amperage required to start the car they are in. Even on a cold Feb morn, few cars actually need even 40AH to start, yet they’ll have a 60AH or 80AH battery. Hence they still start a car, (just) at five years old. All you need is faith. Under the new religion this fact can be ignored, therefore and brace yourselves:
==============
In effect, they chuck a 50% bigger battery on so when 50% of it degrades you still feel like its charging to 100%
==============
This is heresy . The faithful must close their minds to blasphemy.
Some fool on here wrote:
=====
Tesla just overspec the battery and adjust its lifespan by over-the-air updates.
=====
Don’t listen. Also forget that you’ve rarely seen a car battery last more than five years, and forget any experience you’ve had with mobile phones, Tesla HAS reinvented the battery and defeated the laws of physics, and chemistry.
It’s all in the mystical ’tech’ and has nothing to do with software management of cells.
How dare anyone suggest such a thing?
So that’s all right then. I can go now, electric cars if sold by Mr Musk are not snake-oil. i stand corrected and humbly apologise, it is me that is the halfwit. it was me that was the unbelliever. Me that was incapable of thinking coherently. I beg your forgiveness, and I thought 'you' were gullible. Nay, like you, I now have the faith. He has risen.
As monks to the monastery of Musk let us prostrate ourselves at the altar before our icon, anoint it with exquisite bullshot. Bring on the national anthem.
All hail. Carry on.
Edited by OldDuffer on Friday 15th September 10:32
Edited by OldDuffer on Friday 15th September 10:38
Incidentally, if you've after some of the Musk mystique and perhaps you too want some of that Musk 'tech' and perhaps you drive a petrol version of a deisel car? Simple, next battery, put the deisel spec battery in there. It'll won't usually cost you more than £10-15 over the 'petrol' spec cells but will have 30-40% more grunt. When it's 3-4 years old, and the petrol spec is long gone, that'll be the diffenrece between you car starting and not.
Or do what I do, shunt a 019 in there anyway.
Ho hum.
Or do what I do, shunt a 019 in there anyway.
Ho hum.
Edited by OldDuffer on Friday 15th September 10:52
Edited by OldDuffer on Friday 15th September 10:54
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