Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...

[RobDickinson]

If Tesla are doing badly how is it going for Mercedes?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-just-outsold...

[RobDickinson]

Teslas efficiency advantage..

https://twitter.com/skorusARK/status/1050416605132...

Ignores the kona/Niro i3 and ioniq..

Edited by RobDickinson on Friday 12th October 00:42

[anonymous-user]

gangzoom said:

Sad day if that come ture, will be enough for me to consider switching from Tesla. Apple lost their way when Jobs went the first time round, Tesla will be the same with Musk .

Murdoch is already a Director at Tesla

Musk is staying as CEO and Product Architect, but has to give up the role of Chairman as part of his settlement with the SEC

I expect a new recruit as Chair. Let’s see

[RobDickinson]

Murdock is Elons mate and a non executive already but seems like it won't be him.

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

If Tesla are doing badly how is it going for Mercedes?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-just-outsold...

The US isn’t a huge market. Merc will earn circa 15b in 2018. Not bad change

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

Teslas efficiency advantage..

https://twitter.com/skorusARK/status/1050416605132...

Ignores the kona/Niro i3 and ioniq..

Edited by RobDickinson on Friday 12th October 00:42

I agree that they are mostly less efficient. The Porsche isn’t out yet and is sold out for 2 years production. I’m not sure efficiency matters so much at the high end. It’s a Porsche, it will sell. The perceived quality is much higher which counters the efficiency. No one ever purchased a GT3 and considered mpg

[DonkeyApple]

Burwood said:

RobDickinson said:

Teslas efficiency advantage..

https://twitter.com/skorusARK/status/1050416605132...

Ignores the kona/Niro i3 and ioniq..

Edited by RobDickinson on Friday 12th October 00:42

I agree that they are mostly less efficient. The Porsche isn’t out yet and is sold out for 2 years production. I’m not sure efficiency matters so much at the high end. It’s a Porsche, it will sell. The perceived quality is much higher which counters the efficiency. No one ever purchased a GT3 and considered mpg

What’s interesting about that chart is that it shows a Panasonic powered car pretty much neck and neck with an LG powered car. As well as the LG powered car trumping the older Panasonic style of battery which was once heralded as the best only a short while ago. Both using very different structure and chem, it shows that Panasonic has no guaranteed or firm lead in extracting efficiencies from current battery tech. Ergo, any initial battery weaknesses within the likes of Jag, Merc, BMW are not exactly terrible and probably include an element of financial trade off.

[DonkeyApple]

Burwood said:

RobDickinson said:

If Tesla are doing badly how is it going for Mercedes?

https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-just-outsold...

The US isn’t a huge market. Merc will earn circa 15b in 2018. Not bad change

Strange that the article was written from Australia at the exact same time that Australia’s MacQuarie Bank has published its very bullish buy note as part of its plan to fallate the Ego Kid into letting them run the lead funding round on the Chinese expansion.

[RobDickinson]

Burwood said:

I agree that they are mostly less efficient. The Porsche isn’t out yet and is sold out for 2 years production. I’m not sure efficiency matters so much at the high end. It’s a Porsche, it will sell. The perceived quality is much higher which counters the efficiency. No one ever purchased a GT3 and considered mpg

If there's plenty of 350kw chargers and they don't destroy the batteries then provable not. Imo the current will be too high for the taycan size battery, 4C? I wouldn't want to use one too often

[gangzoom]

DonkeyApple said:

What’s interesting about that chart is that it shows a Panasonic powered car pretty much neck and neck with an LG powered car. As well as the LG powered car trumping the older Panasonic style of battery which was once heralded as the best only a short while ago.

Not sure if your looking at the same chart but efficency is affected by weight/size as much as drivetrain.

The Bolt EPA rating is 237 miles almost identical to the EPA rating of our 75D Model X.

Our X can fit x4 22inch wheels+tyres with still enough space for x2 full sized Isofix child seats and room for driver/passenger - so essentially enough space to carry 4 adults whilst transporting x4 massive wheels. Can you even fit x4 22inch wheels into a Bolt??

The closests EV in those charts to the X for usable space is probably the eTron, even than its not a 6/7 seater, yet the X is nearly 50% more efficent, not forgetting the even the base X is quicker to 60.....Would you expect a Q7 to be more efficent than a Q5??

Audi/Merc/Jaguar have an awful lot to learn on EV design. Hyundai are actually the leaders on the efficency/drivetrain design front, the established 'premium' manfactures are all having a good go at fighting for the wooden spoon.

Edited by gangzoom on Friday 12th October 09:32

[RobDickinson]

Burwood said:

The US isn’t a huge market. Merc will earn circa 15b in 2018. Not bad change

Outsold by a company that's made cars for 8 years? One that's do obviously failing... Yeah that's why Mercedes are going all electric by 2022...

[Burwood]

RobDickinson said:

Burwood said:

The US isn’t a huge market. Merc will earn circa 15b in 2018. Not bad change

Outsold by a company that's made cars for 8 years? One that's do obviously failing... Yeah that's why Mercedes are going all electric by 2022...

It's good for consumers 'EV' and competition but it is yet to be seen whether they reach profitability in the short term and remain so. I admit I am biased. I can't abide the CEO's reckless behaviour which has cost many small shareholders their life savings. all because he has an ego.

I still think the valuation is ridiculous and they have serious issues around unit costs at present.

[RobDickinson]

Doesn't look like the kona will be sold all over USA, only limited numbers and states.

[saaby93]

gangzoom said:

Not sure if your looking at the same chart but efficency is affected by weight/size as much as drivetrain.

The Bolt EPA rating is 237 miles almost identical to the EPA rating of our 75D Model X.

Our X can fit x4 22inch wheels+tyres with still enough space for x2 full sized Isofix child seats and room for driver/passenger - so essentially enough space to carry 4 adults whilst transporting x4 massive wheels. Can you even fit x4 22inch wheels into a Bolt??

Why would you want to fit larger wheels
Toyota keeps demonstrating with its Prius that the smaller wheels are more efficient

[RobDickinson]

Inside it lol

[gangzoom]

saaby93 said:

Why would you want to fit larger wheels
Toyota keeps demonstrating with its Prius that the smaller wheels are more efficient

I don't, and haven't, but when someone gives you x4 22inch wheels and tyre for £0 you don't say no.

They are currently sitting in the shed getting cold and been a good home to spiders I would imagine .

[DonkeyApple]

gangzoom said:

Audi/Merc/Jaguar have an awful lot to learn on EV design.

I really don’t think they do. They are just different businesses on a different tragectory. Their profits are from selling hybrids to people like Rob, Burwood and Myself. Their EV offerings really are just about grabbing headlines and taking a small footprint. They know that the genuine market for EVs is still far too small for them to turn on the taps and roll out millions of them and rent them out all day long to typical global consumers. They know that for the moment EVs remain the toys of the rich and that the rich live in cities and their suburbs.

They can sit at their computer, pull up all the data from all around the world as to how many miles their existing customers do, how they use their car, where they live and how much money they have. This is the wonder of only selling on finance and forcing owners to use your service centres. You know everything about them. And from that you know what percentage of your client base can afford your EV and where they live and whether range is any real kind of issue, or efficiency.

Jaguar are a really good example. They’ve rolled out an EV and it’s grabbed a lot of headlines. It will help further change Jaguar’s image. But they have done this on a really confined budget to the point that they have contracted out production to a third party with apparently an initial limit of just 20k units per annum. Their real investment is into hybrids as that is where the profit and stability is.

That chart really does show that LG battery tech is ahead of Panasonics original tech and really not far behind Panasonic’s latest tech. It shows that there is not some huge mystical head start or barriers to entry.

The chart also shows most of the other firms being less efficient. Some will believe it is because those firms employ stupid people who are too dumb to be able to match the raw genius of Tesla. Others will look at it and opt to believe that this is not the case and that therefore there is something else at play and in business that really does lead you to look at money. Every firm on the list is out to make profit but it’s very clear that they plan different paths. And some are free to take all or nothing risks while others have a duty to shareholders, bond holders and employees to run as stable a model as possible.

[RobDickinson]

You must be Simon under another login, so many words.

[gangzoom]

As for anyone who thinks VAG are actually serious about EVs, right now the head of VW is busy trying to stop EU laws mandating reduction in emissions......

https://electrek.co/2018/10/11/vw-ceo-scare-tactic...

[Burwood]

gangzoom said:

As for anyone who thinks VAG are actually serious about EVs, right now the head of VW is busy trying to stop EU laws mandating reduction in emissions......

https://electrek.co/2018/10/11/vw-ceo-scare-tactic...

That’s because they have 100b tied up in ICE. Just think about the drivers of the German economy. Think about the power their chancellor has within the EU.