Tesla and Uber Unlikely to Survive...
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
Carrot said:
Digga said:
RobDickinson said:
People know they can save massive on fuel costs.
But depreciation costs are still utterly enormous.
AstonZagato said:
It was between a M5 or XJ supersport for me before the EV bug hit........Cannot wait to see what it looks like. Woudlnt be cheap though, but hey nor is the Tesla 
.Burwood said:
REALIST123 said:
Carrot said:
Digga said:
RobDickinson said:
People know they can save massive on fuel costs.
But depreciation costs are still utterly enormous.In any case the lessee is always paying for a significant amount of the depreciation. Even your example implies around £10k over two years.
REALIST123 said:
Burwood said:
REALIST123 said:
Carrot said:
Digga said:
RobDickinson said:
People know they can save massive on fuel costs.
But depreciation costs are still utterly enormous.In any case the lessee is always paying for a significant amount of the depreciation. Even your example implies around £10k over two years.
AstonZagato said:
In a way you have to feel sorry for Jaguar. They’ve tried to get volumes up by investing heavily (for them) in diesel only to have dieselgate blow that model out of the water and then by launching the XE but wholly unable to compete against BMW, VAG etc in the financing game. It does seem logical to hear that they are considering an all electric line up as the last chance to save the brand. They’re a small manufacturer so the small size of the EV market is less of an issue and they are a premium brand which is the only area that you can sell EVs and hope to turn some form of profit.
They would definitely have to finally fix their obsession with outdated and slow Interfaces though as I really can’t see the current type of EV consumer tolerating the abject social humiliation of not having some kind of suitable interface to fanny about with and brag about. It seems to be a weirdly crucial element for people who want to save the planet by consuming as many goods as everyone else, if not more when you think of the strong likelihood that their homes are probably filled to bursting with China’s finest slave labour manufacturered gadget tat that has to be binned and replaced every year for fear of social humiliation at not having the latest pointless gadget.
I really like the ipace. I think it’s a great looking car that manages to look different enough to stand out but doesn’t look like a handicap wagon (a bizarre obsession with EV design). But there is always the risk of economic slowdown that sees a decline in demand for premium goods combined with the elephant in the room which is that EVs are not necessity goods in any way but pure luxury goods.
CABC said:
DonkeyApple said:
with the elephant in the room which is that EVs are not necessity goods in any way but pure luxury goods.
fear not, politicians about to fix that.. But they’re really backing hybrids. It’s what the global industry can deliver, it’s what works, what everyone can use and doesn’t slow tax receipts. EVs are almost a sideshow, part of the PR machine and likely to remain as such for some time. Of the near 30 million cars built each year it would be very feasible to argue that within 5 years more than 50% could be hybrids. That’s where the money is for every party involved as every party involved needs to keep the money flowing in.
DonkeyApple said:
CABC said:
DonkeyApple said:
with the elephant in the room which is that EVs are not necessity goods in any way but pure luxury goods.
fear not, politicians about to fix that.. But they’re really backing hybrids. It’s what the global industry can deliver, it’s what works, what everyone can use and doesn’t slow tax receipts. EVs are almost a sideshow, part of the PR machine and likely to remain as such for some time. Of the near 30 million cars built each year it would be very feasible to argue that within 5 years more than 50% could be hybrids. That’s where the money is for every party involved as every party involved needs to keep the money flowing in.
Not sure that the government is backing hybrids.
PHEV subsidy being scrapped.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mitsub...
PHEV subsidy being scrapped.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mitsub...
AstonZagato said:
Not sure that the government is backing hybrids.
PHEV subsidy being scrapped.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mitsub...
I suspect they are scrapping it because as an incentive it’s no longer needed. The ULEZ for starters means that most new cars bought in or near London are likely to be hybrids. The subsidy was never for the consumer but for the manufacturer and they’re all committed to building and selling hybrids now. PHEV subsidy being scrapped.
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/mitsub...
One of the key USPs Tesla has over others is AP. Todate I don't think Tesla has delivered anything amazing on AP, but the promise of version 9.0 software will try to change that....
I have 0 knowledge of anykind of AI neural net development but just from a lay perspective just how far can Tesla get with AP using not even 1080p cameras as the main 'vision' source for AP.
But it seems pretty obvious none of the cars Tesla are selling today as 'Fully Self Driving capable' will have enough computing power to deliver Full Self Driving. Even the latest software only seem to be processing 640x480 image streams for blind spot monitoring....The last digital camera I used that delivered a 640x480 native image was the Apple QuickTake 150 from about 2 decades ago!!! I just cannot see how such a tiny native feed can contain enough data to control a 2.5 ton car capable of traveling at 150mph....
Tesla almost convinced me to drop some £££ on AP, but the hardware and software has a long long way to go before it'll deliver anything close to Full Self Driving, maybe by AP 4.0 things might be different?
https://electrek.co/2018/10/15/tesla-new-autopilot...
I have 0 knowledge of anykind of AI neural net development but just from a lay perspective just how far can Tesla get with AP using not even 1080p cameras as the main 'vision' source for AP.
But it seems pretty obvious none of the cars Tesla are selling today as 'Fully Self Driving capable' will have enough computing power to deliver Full Self Driving. Even the latest software only seem to be processing 640x480 image streams for blind spot monitoring....The last digital camera I used that delivered a 640x480 native image was the Apple QuickTake 150 from about 2 decades ago!!! I just cannot see how such a tiny native feed can contain enough data to control a 2.5 ton car capable of traveling at 150mph....
Tesla almost convinced me to drop some £££ on AP, but the hardware and software has a long long way to go before it'll deliver anything close to Full Self Driving, maybe by AP 4.0 things might be different?
https://electrek.co/2018/10/15/tesla-new-autopilot...
The side cameras are 1080 there just processing them at lower resolution.
Version 9 is a much larger neural net, there's some good articles on it.
But yes full ap will need bigger hardware, Tesla are designing their own neural processor and will install it on all cars that have paid for self driving.
Version 9 is a much larger neural net, there's some good articles on it.
But yes full ap will need bigger hardware, Tesla are designing their own neural processor and will install it on all cars that have paid for self driving.
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/neural-net...
More info about V9.0 versus 8.0.
Biggest suprise to me is the current UK version 8.0 AP is run using x2 640x416 feeds!!!
No wonder we have stories of cars slamming into stationary traffic. Frankly am amazed Tesla and owners are 'happy' to let their £60k+ machines to be controlled by an algorithm been feed images with not much more resolution as a SNES game!!!
Am amazed there hasn't been more AP related accidents, especially with some of the stunts people have pulled on YouTube.
More info about V9.0 versus 8.0.
Biggest suprise to me is the current UK version 8.0 AP is run using x2 640x416 feeds!!!
No wonder we have stories of cars slamming into stationary traffic. Frankly am amazed Tesla and owners are 'happy' to let their £60k+ machines to be controlled by an algorithm been feed images with not much more resolution as a SNES game!!!
Am amazed there hasn't been more AP related accidents, especially with some of the stunts people have pulled on YouTube.
Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 16th October 05:40
RobDickinson said:
Tesla are designing their own neural processor and will install it on all cars that have paid for self driving.
Thats the £9k question for me....I haven't paid to activate AP on our car, and looking at the crude data from v8.0 gald I didnt. Tesla does however seem to be moving very quickly with neural net development, if I was 100% convinced Tesla is confident of delivering FSD on our 2017 build X I would pay the £9k FSD fee.
But we all know how IT development goes. You can change the CPU, but what about the bus, ram speed, storage etc etc. Socketed CPUs are around but how many people actually change a CPU instead of do a full upgrade?
I think I'll have to try v9.0 before deciding. Am very happy with everything else our current X does, has enough speed/range/space for us as the main family car for the foreseeable future.
But I'm still very undecided/sure about A.P, FSD is something I would 100% order if turly available...Still its nice Tesla gives you the choice about FSD potential on a car built 18 months ago
.Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 16th October 05:53
They’ve already upgraded the CPU board once, but there’s still guarantee in fact there’s already talk of HW3 being required. I’m sure the current cars will reach a fairly good version of AutoPilot, but won’t reach full self driving as I think thecsensir mix just doesn’t cut it. You can’t talk away cars crashing into fire trucks as ‘ AutoPilot can’t see stationary objects, it’s driver error’ and continually say AutoPilot is beta, and think the same fundamental technology will cope with all that and much more.
Past experience tells me version 9 will be a few extra features of mixed reliability and a completely irresponsible naming of ‘mad max’ mode which sends a reduculous message, and then we’ll have a year or so trying to stop these systems either killing people or reducing the frustrations owners have with auto lane change never changing lane, or worse, randomly toggling between the two extremes
Past experience tells me version 9 will be a few extra features of mixed reliability and a completely irresponsible naming of ‘mad max’ mode which sends a reduculous message, and then we’ll have a year or so trying to stop these systems either killing people or reducing the frustrations owners have with auto lane change never changing lane, or worse, randomly toggling between the two extremes
gangzoom said:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/neural-net...
More info about V9.0 versus 8.0.
Biggest suprise to me is the current UK version 8.0 AP is run using x2 640x416 feeds!!!
No wonder we have stories of cars slamming into stationary traffic. Frankly am amazed Tesla and owners are 'happy' to let their £60k+ machines to be controlled by an algorithm been feed images with not much more resolution as a SNES game!!!
Am amazed there hasn't been more AP related accidents, especially with some of the stunts people have pulled on YouTube.
£100,000 cars tend to be rented by people with the ability to engage brain, thus permitting them to earn sufficient income to have such toys. I wonder if that means that the average owner thinks more about what they are doing and is able to think better about it? And maybe in the U.K. the typical user is aware that our roads and road network is significantly different from those in America where the bulk of the data has been derived?More info about V9.0 versus 8.0.
Biggest suprise to me is the current UK version 8.0 AP is run using x2 640x416 feeds!!!
No wonder we have stories of cars slamming into stationary traffic. Frankly am amazed Tesla and owners are 'happy' to let their £60k+ machines to be controlled by an algorithm been feed images with not much more resolution as a SNES game!!!
Am amazed there hasn't been more AP related accidents, especially with some of the stunts people have pulled on YouTube.
Edited by gangzoom on Tuesday 16th October 05:40
The true convenience and luxury of AP though has to be on the urban commute from the big Zone 5 house to the CBD rather than taking coat hanger samples from one motorway business corridor to another. The latter is far more simple and possibly not too far away but the former is still a long way off.
I have AP2 on my car (but I didn't pay for FSD). The idea that the car will one day be capable of autonomous driving is laughable.
AP has some uses but is not great. It's currently adaptive cruise with lane assist. It also has the ability to change lanes on demand, which, like Sex Panther, 90% of the time works every time.
It is perhaps most useful on a gridlocked M25 when you can let the car do its thing. Then it is sublime.
Once you have fast flowing traffic, the fiddle is that it requires constant lane changing (or the car will undertake middle lane morons). Obviously, this is less of a problem on US highways where undertaking is acceptable behaviour. I wouldn't trust it entering narrowed lanes for roadworks or on a contraflow.
You can use it on single carriageway A roads (or B roads if you're feeling brave) but it requires you to be super vigilant as it is quite flaky (to be fair, the manual explicitly forbids its use except on motorways). Lane changing is disabled on dual carriageway A roads (i.e. you can only use it on motorways).
Nevertheless, it frees up some driver bandwidth to look at the broader traffic, safety picture. I do use it on major trunk roads.
It is quite jerky (the acceleration and deceleration is too pronounced) and it gets very confused when lanes merge or split.
It has the very occasional, terrifying habit of veering sharply - keeping your hands on the wheel is very necessary.
Annoyingly, you can't spec ACC without AP.
AP has some uses but is not great. It's currently adaptive cruise with lane assist. It also has the ability to change lanes on demand, which, like Sex Panther, 90% of the time works every time.
It is perhaps most useful on a gridlocked M25 when you can let the car do its thing. Then it is sublime.
Once you have fast flowing traffic, the fiddle is that it requires constant lane changing (or the car will undertake middle lane morons). Obviously, this is less of a problem on US highways where undertaking is acceptable behaviour. I wouldn't trust it entering narrowed lanes for roadworks or on a contraflow.
You can use it on single carriageway A roads (or B roads if you're feeling brave) but it requires you to be super vigilant as it is quite flaky (to be fair, the manual explicitly forbids its use except on motorways). Lane changing is disabled on dual carriageway A roads (i.e. you can only use it on motorways).
Nevertheless, it frees up some driver bandwidth to look at the broader traffic, safety picture. I do use it on major trunk roads.
It is quite jerky (the acceleration and deceleration is too pronounced) and it gets very confused when lanes merge or split.
It has the very occasional, terrifying habit of veering sharply - keeping your hands on the wheel is very necessary.
Annoyingly, you can't spec ACC without AP.
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